Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

[SolarFlare]

Here is the reply I received back from the CVO (College of Veterinarians of Ontario):

Non-Conventional Therapies in the Practice of Veterinary Medicine:

The Veterinarians Act currently requires that any individual providing animal care services that relate to veterinary medicine must provide these services under the delegation and supervision of a veterinarian. However, it is clear that certain non-conventional therapies are in the public domain. These lower risk activities are being provided to animals by non-veterinarians upon client request and without veterinary oversight. It is still encouraged that providing these services should be coordinated with a veterinarian in the interest of the animal’s health. The College does not regulate third party businesses. Where non-veterinarians provide non-conventional therapies, they must not hold out to be practicing veterinary medicine. The acts of diagnosis, prognosis, prescribing, major surgery and acupuncture are the practice of veterinary medicine.

Then a few links to related legislature, including this one which was just signed into royal assent on June 6, 2024: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/24v15#BK152

The restricted acts are listed in Schedule 1 (you can click on it in the top menu to take you directly to it).

So, I guess nothing is being done or will be done if the CVO does not regulate third party businesses. I don’t understand how they say they don’t, but then also say you can’t practice veterinary medicine without a license - so who is enforcing this?

I did email back asking for a clarification on the nerve release, and whether it fell under prognosis since the example screenshot I sent them says it can alleviate a whole list of conditions. Waiting to hear back.

[iberianfan]

Perhaps ask them who enforces the practicing without a license thing. I certainly have heard of instances where someone has been punished for doing so. Maybe some governmental agency?

[SolarFlare]

Good idea - I will wait for their reply to see if they believe this falls under practicing without a license, and if so, will find out who is responsible.

[Scribbler]

@SolarFlare

Good idea - I will wait for their reply to see if they believe this falls under practicing without a license, and if so, will find out who is responsible.

Very often it is the professional organization such as the veterinary society.

[SolarFlare]

I believe that’s who the CVO is! Their own website says they regulate the delivery of veterinary medicine in Ontario, but then they told me they don’t regulate third parties. Ok…but if the third parties are delivering veterinary medicine in Ontario without a license I thought that would fall under their jurisdiction.

https://www.cvo.org/

[Lunabear1988]

So there was a “chiropractor” near me who also offered the Equissage pulse thing (it’s like a vibrating thing the horse wears)

Well I know now she only does the Equissage thing because she got in trouble for practicing as a chiropractor without being licensed or something. So obviously, at least in Colorado, there some oversight.

But I am not knowledgeable about these things so I will let other people figure that out I guess.

[Piaffe11]

Have you heard anything back SolarFlare? I am seeing more and more people commenting on their horse getting cranial nerve release on FB (I am also in Ontario). I am pretty sure one of the people doing it is a saddle fitter? Just seems a bit nuts.

[SolarFlare]

I responded saying I was confused and thought that the CVO was the one who would be regulating these entities, and still haven’t heard back. I did get a feedback request though! I assume that was automated after contacting them.

The response to my original question was sent quickly - I think the day after I emailed. So, I assume they are choosing not to reply again even though I don’t understand their original answer.

Maybe it would help if they received more inquiries? Several people wording it differently might catch their attention or at least elicit a more understandable response.

p.s. not sure which saddle fitter that is, but I know we’ve got one who tells everyone their tree is twisted, but conveniently she can help you find a new saddle. We have a local tack store who said they get at least one person every week coming to them saying they either need their saddle taken apart and inspected or they need to get a different saddle because she told them the tree is twisted - and that’s just the people who go to that particular store! They won’t refer anyone to her any more.

I know someone who was told the tree was twisted by this fitter, and she took her saddle to a saddler who took it apart and verified that the tree was totally fine. Saddler even took video of the tree on the bench showing it was totally level so saddle owner felt comfortable using it. The stitching on the outside of the saddle wasn’t totally even, so this is apparently what caused the “tree is twisted” diagnosis without looking inside (by first fitter).

I am mentioning this because it seems she’s built up a bit of a cult of personality and I wonder if it’s her doing the nerve releases. Feel free to PM if you don’t want to post.

[PaddockWood]

@ReallyBigPony
I feel the need to jump in here because while you may not be a professional horse trainer, you certainly are qualified to speak on the subject of movement. And the importance of movement and good posture and good movement.

I cannot imagine any horse person who would not benefit to consider what you have to say about a lot of things around keeping horses healthy and in good range of motion. At least that’s the goal, right?

It’s funny how the onion starts peeling and you are one of my layers. I grew up with our horses not stalled and we showed and did well. Later in life and boarding I saw that stalling for 12, 16, 20 hrs a day was not doing my horses any good. Went to full turnout and that’s hard to find in a good care facility. So I built my own place to to maximize it all and now working on tracks to get even more movement. But now I see it’s more. It’s expression of movement no matter what you do. And cross training and multi surfaces etc.

So carry on everyone but know Kathy is totally legit.

[MapleBreeze]

So, does Celese keep her horses stalled or are they turned out 24/7?

[TwiSedai]

A vet can chime in to clarify, but I’m pretty sure not all of those conditions she listed are “pathologies”, which again emphasizes that she’s not a vet and has no clue what she’s talking about.

[Stella_Zangrilli]

I had a chat with a lady trained, certified and accredited as myofascial release therapist and I was speechless to realise that Celeste uses some of the myofascial techniques in her BTMM (along with feathers in the hair and being bare foot). She DID NOT invent anything!!! But I knew that since the beginning as she uses principles from classical dressage too. She is full of s***.

[Arlomine]

Is this Celeste riding?

[Lunabear1988]

Yes, I’m fairly certain. She posted it on her IG

[sascha]

@SolarFlare

I don’t understand how they say they don’t, but then also say you can’t practice veterinary medicine without a license - so who is enforcing this?

I believe whoever responded to you just wanted you to go away since: https://www.cvo.org/standards/unauthorized-practice

Specifically from that page:

Position

The College’s principal object is to regulate the practice of veterinary medicine in Ontario and to govern its licensed members so that the public interest may be served and protected. This is to assure the delivery of safe veterinary medicine by licensed veterinarians meets the expected standard of practice. When an unlicensed individual or an organization is believed to be engaging in the practice of veterinary medicine and it is reported to the College of Veterinarians of Ontario, the College will investigate. Where the results of the investigation clearly demonstrate evidence of a violation of section 11 of the Veterinarians Act, the College will issue a cease-and-desist notice and request confirmation that the offending individual or organization will cease to perform the activity or activities at issue. When an individual or an organization is non-compliant with a cease-and-desist notice, the College may proceed with legal action through the Ontario court system.

[SolarFlare]

Thanks so much for digging that up for me - I just didn’t have the bandwidth to go through all of the links she sent me to figure out what they were actually responsible for.

Maybe I’ll email back with a “hey, I haven’t received any response to my follow-up email, and also this”.

Has anyone else in Ontario sent an email to CVO asking about this? Wondering what you’ve heard back (and if it was the same person who responded).

[FjordBCRF]

After reading this thread, I was disappointed to see that Celeste is a presenter as this years upcoming Progressive Hoof Care Practitioners conference. I was listening to the Humble Hoof podcast and she was promoting the event.

https://progressivehoofcare.org/conference/

[Dr_Doolittle]

[MorganMaresVT]

I heard that promoted on the podcast the other day and was taken aback as well. Unfortunately I think the holistic hoof care stuff does flirt with some of this woo woo territory.

[Lunabear1988]

I’ll have to admit that my thoughts on people definitely feel a little bit changed when I see them announcing that they’re following this. Not because the practice of it is really harmful or wrong but the whole culture of it that goes with it.