Posts like that ^ do NOT help the person you are allegedly trying to defend. If anything, they just make things worse… especially when you use your “zero interest and additional energy” to actually start a COTH account so you can post to lecture others to do something good with their time and energy.
Presenting clear examples of progressive improvement in horses would be a good way to demonstrate support… as many have requested and suggested. Not just bad photos.
Here on COTH we are alert to scams and horsey cults and money grabs. I honestly was giving Horse Witch the benefit of doubt. I didn’t think she likely knew any more about biomechanics and groundwork than me, but my old hands don’t do massage and that’s something I pay for. I was curious about her program since I have some ability to evaluate these things, but it was behind a pay wall so whatever. I would never sign up for training without auditing the trainer pretty carefully and watching them work.
Then we got the screen shots of her BSC defensive posts on FB, the fact that there is muddled and conflicting information on her academic credentials and no verification, and that she might not actually have a business license, RMT training, or be registered to do massage in her home state.
These are all glaring red flags that none of her supporters coming on COTH have addressed.
When I see some lies, I suspect the whole edifice is built on falsehood, exaggeration and emotional appeal. Over promising and fake it till you make it are ongoing issues with trainers in the unregulated uncredentialed horse industry, and social media makes this even more overt.
I have watched self taught charlatan trainers operate before and get their hooks into people who have very little background in training, groundwork, horsemanship. These trainers present concepts and techniques that are common knowledge to more advanced riders, as super secret ideas they originated themselves. And that you have to be in their club and etc.
I can see why Horse Witch has locked down her program details. If she is indeed operating with no business license, no RMT credentials, no RMT registration, she is likely also operating with no insurance (because who would insure her?). And if you advertise massage in many jurisdictions without being a proper licensed RMT, you get cease and desist and fines. Likewise if you diagnose injury you could be on vet terrain. So there’s lots of reasons to keep her program on the down low and require her students to not discuss the specifics.
Charlatan trainers are ultimately harmful to most of the students until they move on and learn more. Sometimes the harm is just wasted time and cash. Other times it results in injury, death, ruining a horse (see Parelli horse problems, they can become totally neurotic).
Houseguest #2 has arrived.
Aww they deleted the post. Yay for quoting.
I never thought I would start such a thread on COTH! Truly this is going not the way I had originally planned. No regrets though. There’s never any harm in asking questions and asking for clarifications. I’m sorry some feel so offended by that.
And I think the lack of clarification is plenty telling. 
a) FB post saying only prospective employers should need to verify credentials - as a self-employed person, any prospective client is a prospective employer. It is bad business to be so dodgy about listing actual credentials.
b) Many people who are on, or might visit this board, could be prospective clients, and the information posted here may help them make a wise decision. Putting due diligence into decisions about horse health and training does not make us sad people with no lives. It makes us discerning, and in possession of a healthy level of skepticism.
c) The new passers-through did not provide any information clarifying stated or inferred credentials in question, but just cast ad hominem attacks instead. If the credentials exist, why not just point to them?
d) Apparently credentials are important enough to allude to having to gain credibility. When dodgy credentials are called into question, then they are beside the point, and one should look at the (also not forthcoming) results instead.
I understand this is a long read, but I really want to put all of my thoughts in one place.
I have been in the masterclass since the very beginning and have personally witnessed all of what is being talked about.
The information and examples Karen Duplantis (And K_van olst) has given of her experience in the masterclass and the things that she has “witnessed” happen are incorrect and skewed, they omit a large amount of information and frankly everything she posts has been spun in some fashion to shed a negative light on Celeste and attempt to damage her reputation and work due to a personal vendetta.
Karen and I both enrolled in the original masterclass and paid $150 for a live lecture with Celeste about her methodology and the balance through movement method complete with Q&A available, along with the ability to submit questions and potentially case studies to Celeste ahead of time to be addressed in the live. (For the record, this went on for 3 hours with no breaks, that was how committed Celeste was to making sure everyone got what they came for).
This was what the $150 non refundable fee was for.
When the live was done, so many people were posting about it that the request for it to remain open for purchase for the replay was so much Celeste agreed to do that and took on the intense job that is running a full-fledged Facebook group and then further making the decision to build it into the incredible community of education that it is today.
Just like every group, there are rules that are to be followed, and unlike the moderation happening in this group, Celeste and her team are incredibly strict about it.
Respectful debate and disagreement are always allowed, but it never steers away from being centered around the topic at hand or to be dropped into drama and negativity. Karen along with all of us was aware of the member rules.
Karen was active in the masterclass for over a year getting personal attention from Celeste with full access to all of the content.
She was happily using Celeste’s work, posting in the group about her experiences and even holding clinics at her own barn with plans up until her removal from the group to hold more to come because how much she found it to be impactful.
(Sharing screenshots below from her personal business page)
Watching how after being removed from the group she has chosen to consistently spread misinformation, stir up drama, and be incredibly insulting by referring to Celeste as a narcissist and charlatan among other things should allow all of you all to see what is actually going on here.
Karen has made threats through her Facebook and now on here, all because she didn’t get her fee refunded to her after she had already received what she had purchased and more.
No one is “coming after” Karen Duplantis.
Karen has not even been mentioned by name by Celeste in any of this.
As for the video that she is claiming Celeste was using negatively inside of her group -
No ill will was ever intended or demonstrated in posting the clip in question. It was a viral video that she simply shared to help people train their eye and to help show the difference between abduction and adduction.
Even though Celeste was positive and well within her rights to share the video for the purposes she did, she made it a rule going forward that nothing would be allowed to be offered for any kind of education or critique that did not involve the posters personal horses to help keep a feeling a safety and respect in the group since Ms. Duplantis was so bothered by it, just to keep peace and a positive morale.
Just for clarification as I have seen this happen in several facebook groups -
Anything posted to the internet even if protected by copyright is by copyright law allowed to be used under fair use law. Fair use allows the material to be used for educational purposes which is why the clip was posted in the first place. As the group itself is not a paid group, anything posted inside of it falls under that law.
Fair Use (definition):
Fair Use is an important copyright concept for educators who use copyrighted works in their teaching. The Fair Use doctrine permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. This is why people can review and dissect copy written material for educational purposes as can be seen all over the internet.
Lastly, I’m not sure why this forum ever got so twisted into diving into her non-horse related education or anything outside of BTMM which is what people come on here to read about.
I cannot speak to her college education, background or why she is choosing to not provide the “proof” everyone is seeking but I would assume it’s because of all the ways her personal life has been violated as a result of what has happened to her and her family because of this group and she is choosing not to engage.
My personal experience with BTMM has been life changing and that is all that is important to me and the thousands of other people who have been positively impacted by it.
It teaches you how to be present with your horse, how to work within your own nervous system and your horses. It teaches you how to have a consensual conversation with your horse. It teaches you how to pick up on issues in posture that could be causing lameness or nerve compression. It teaches you how to unwind it, it teaches you how to have a checklist to make sure your horse is being worked with integrity and compassion.
Yes, there are nearly 3000 members in that group and while some can just see dollar signs, what we inside of it see is countless people who are now advocates for their horses, being validated that they weren’t wrong when their intuitions have said something was wrong with their horses and they were ignored until it became catastrophic.
I see a team of supportive successful women of all walks of life in their horsemanship journey lifting people up and providing support to each other. Celeste is net-positive for the equine community and works so hard to educate anyone who is wanting, collaborate with anyone who is willing and does nothing but lift up and support others. The charity work she is constantly demonstrating is outstanding and I cannot for the life of me understand how there can be so much hate for her except that it’s clear to me that none of you have personally interacted with her.
Top professionals in the industry that are seeking her out, having her on podcasts, collaborative clinics and working with them on their own case studies personally means a lot more about her and her work than any of the pettiness that is going on in this unprofessional thread that by the way completely violates the group rules of member conduct for COTH.
MEMBER CONDUCT “ You agree to not use the Service to: (a)transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another’s privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
I personally request and challenge the moderators of this forum to honor this and to go back to the beginning and see that this thread was made for people to receive insight about Celeste and her work from people who had actual experience, good and bad so they could make and educated decision and to remove any comments that are not directly related to that.
For the record, my posts are not skewed, they are just what I witnessed on public social media posts and/or publicly available information, much of it from Celeste herself. Again, when she boasts a bunch of contradictory credentials and then immediately goes nuclear when questioned, that’s more red flags than a parade in Soviet Russia.
Second, the mods have already been through this thread (due to complaints from Celeste), and some information they deemed irrelevant has been removed. I don’t have to personally have interacted with her to point out when statements about her credentials don’t match up or questions about licensing. That’s not how the internet (or particularly this forum) works 
plenty of people who HAVE had personal interactions with Celeste have posted. Just because they aren’t all sunshine and roses doesn’t mean they aren’t valid experiences.
I’ve had a few other members message me and said they felt the vibe in the group was very much “The Emperor Has No Clothes.”
I’m confused about these screen caps, what is happening here?
I do not know who you are and if you had half the bravado you spew your words with you’d post your name. I do not hide who I am. Yes. I invited Katherine to my farm. I also told her months ago Celeste was not welcome to my facility. As soon as Celeste posted her manifesto on FB I cancelled the clinic that had not even got to the planning stages for June 2023 with Katherine. I was obviously accused in that ridiculous poor pitiful Celeste letter of encouraging people to “look into her” when I’d done nothing of the sort. She was absolutely nasty. I was booted from the group with zero warning or explanation until I demanded one and I STILL haven’t got it. The last post I made in that “masterclass” was June of 2022. I made three posts in total. In a year. I never met Celeste and I did not want to. I will include photographs of my interactions.
To be clear. I did not “break any rules.” Period. I asked Celeste where she got that “neuropsychology degree.” Which she was absolutely lying about. So. Do take your sanctimonious baloney somewhere else.
How do I attach photos. I have some many screenshots 
Could it possibly be because those degrees/certificates/licenses/whatevers are being used by Celeste as a way of promoting her worthiness? Just a guess lol
The bigger question is how so many people can give a pass to outright lies. That looks bad, not only on her, but on everyone who tries to defend her. Honestly, y’all need to bury the shovel, not keep using it to dig deeper and deeper holes.
You can’t join the group unless you pay. Touting it as “not a paid group” is… More than a little disingenuous. Although pretty par for the course with the rest of the shenanigans I guess.
These are the communications received from Celeste’s “admin assistant” concerning my removal from the group. I had not been “active” since June of 2022. I’d already been getting too many red flags and had invited Katherine Lowry to present a clinic at my farm. My beef is: I don’t “break group rules,” I paid and joined. I was removed. Unfairly. That makes me angry. As for Katherine she attacked me on my own page telling me to grow up. She claimed that Celeste has an “degree in Psychology with neuroscience” which does not jam with Celeste’s website or anywhere else. Anyway. I have yet to receive a screenshot of my supposed post that broke a rule. image|231x500
Ok, so I had never heard of Celeste or seen anything regarding TTHW prior to this thread. Curious, I looked up her public FB and Insta pages. Emphasis on “public”. From a wee bit of scrolling, I found out a lot about Celeste, her family / marriage / kids… stuff I did not want or need to know. Photos of her dead horse. Everything she posted, she posted publicly.
Commenting on a publicly-available post or photo is not stalking. Stalking is friending someone (with intent) and screenshotting private posts or conversations. Stalking is joining private groups to follow a poster’s contribution (deliberately, with no intent to provide own content).
If you lay ya cr@p out on a public forum, don’t whine when people look at it.
As for education: when you are exchanging a service (education and therapeutic) for money, expect people to check credentials. Is checking a barn’s FB photos and reviews “stalking” when looking to board? No.
Moral / tl;dr / dinner is ready : post business stuff public, private stuff private, and be honest and factual when taking client cash.
wow.
I don’t know much of anything about Celeste beyond this thread and what several friends who are fans have told me, but based on a cursory exploration of her stuff and how she puts herself out there, she strikes me more as an “equestrian influencer”. The fudging of her education really bothers me, though. For the life of me, I do not understand the unwillingness to be forthcoming with credentials (if they actually exist). Every human I’ve ever met with an advanced degree will gladly tell you where they went to school, when, and for what - and in a plain and simple manner. I got my BA music from Portland State University in 2003 and my masters in vocal performance from New England Conservatory in 2006. Bam. SO SIMPLE. I would never tell someone “I have a degree in performing music and I studied voice” if I held actual degrees in those areas. That’s just not how folks talk. WHY would I want there to be any sort of confusion about my education in regards to my profession? Unless, of course, the credentials don’t exist.
More power to folks who are able to leverage their experience and education to make money and innovate in their field. This, however, feels skeevy because that experience and education is being intentionally fudged. And if someone is willing to be less-than-honest about their background, why should we believe anything else they say?
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