Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

I can understand some of the takes on Celeste’s marketing, but I’ve been in the horse industry for a couple decades & her “methods” have merit. There are some things that bug me about the community & the way things are taught & it can be clique-ish, but the work does work from what I’ve seen in person & pictures.

She doesn’t claim you have to stay at a walk for months. She very definitely doesn’t claim it’s ONLY TS work that is responsible for the improvements. In fact she says you need a team of folks that can work together to help a horse that’s really suffering. She doesn’t say people can’t talk about it. She does say each horse is different & needs individualized assessment for this work which I disagree with for the basic pillar work she does.

The TS stuff is not new. It was very familiar to me when I went to one of her lectures. I’ve audited the L program (highly recommend!!) and worked with/studied with some talented body workers. You can get the same results by riding the pyramid. Her system is just simpler, easier, and targets the area more efficiently. To me, it’s for folks that can’t ride as well as you need to in order to change the horse in significant positive ways (most of us including me!) or in conjunction with very good, very correct riding. She talks about the horse needing to feel safe being necessary, which is true & not woo woo. If the nervous system is on alert fir any reason the “wrong” muscles will be activated to some degree. Wrong muscles for building a horses body to better take a rider, but not “wrong” for a horse that needs to escape a predator.

The online group is something I did join after seeing her lecture. I don’t use it. It’s not worth it to me, but I know a lot of people are liking it. It’s not organized & I think there needs to be a lot more videos of the work on that forum. The lectures tho- I would totally recommend going to see her in person with your horse or as an auditor. I do see why some people are suspicious but I also think people are making a LOT of inaccurate assumptions about her here too.

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

She insists horses need correct (barefoot) trimming to go along with the work she does. She is very adamant that positive results are due to a team approach, hoofcare playing a major role. She most definitely does not claim her work is the only element needed. She just sees a lot of dysfunctional body & movement issues that a poorly developed TS is a part of. She makes a concerted effort of saying it’s not just her TS work… that her work alone isn’t going to magically fix all your horses problems.

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

I really do understand that feeling. I had/have it too. I’ve been in this industry for a while & I’m often the one rolling my eyes. I also don’t think Celeste is perfect. I don’t think the way she has set up het program is perfect. After seeing het in person I signed up for the FB group & in retrospect wouldn’t do it again. It’s just not organized in a way that works for me & it’s not a very enjoyable group because of how it’s set up & managed. It’s fragmented & doesn’t have enough clear info for me. BUT, the work is good. I’ve seen it in person & on horses I know. My body worker is integrating some of it into work on a horse I have in right now with some significant body issues for his age from draw reins & bad riding. He really is improving mentally & physically.

I also think she’s a little over priced for her 1:1 sessions. I was ready to fill my trailer & go see her but there’s no way I’m paying those rates for 3 horses plus travel costs. ALSO, kudos to her for making that much!! I’m supportive of horse pros making money. Her in person work is something I think is worthwhile. The online stuff, not so much imo… so I’m not some kind of follower. I’m familiar with the thoracic sling & I think it IS a part of the horse that is usually not developed properly. I’m glad she’s out there teaching ways to access & improve these areas.

[LilRanger]

Making money by selling a good product is fine, and that’s great you’ve gotten something you value for your money.

but from what ive seen, she’s selling the same thing parelli was selling, a super secret special exclusive way to train your horse. Using some bogus made up stuff and by padding her cv with false education.

The product isn’t the issue, it’s the selling plan and just plain deceitful way she’s marketing herself.

But if you want to buy that, I’m not stopping you. You’ve read the thread, you now know and can make an educated decision.

[Sticky_Situation]

[quote] She very definitely doesn’t claim it’s ONLY TS work that is responsible for the improvements.
[/quote]

Responsible for what improvements? The ones she is insists happens, but that have apparently never been recorded on camera despite having thousands of participants in her group, most of whom are undoubtedly carrying a device with a camera 24 hours a day? She may not claim that “only” her thoracic-sling-activating and spine-neutralizing is leading to whatever results she gets, but we have yet to see those results.

I’m still waiting for evidence of improvement. A horse standing a bit differently and photographed from a more flattering angle is not evidence of any improvement.

[LilRanger]

For a person who’s been in the horse industry for decades, your screen name is great!

[Kduplantis]

There are SO many truly fine, credentialed experts in the horse world doing great work with posture and performance as well as providing well researched science behind behavior. The modern horse has been around for thousands of years. Its body parts are not “new.” In fact, Dr Gerd Heuschmann mumbled a dislike for the catchy phrase “thoracic sling,” saying it is a silly contrived word for a very “involved apparatus.” I heard him myself at a recent clinic here. He is an acclaimed, educated veterinarian and an expert in biomechanics, in his 60s. BTW. A 30 something woman who has been working with horses for 14 years (as she claims) has not put in the time and effort to call herself “an expert” in anything. She certainly does not have the academic chops. I absolutely will choose people like Dr Heuschmann, Dr Steve Peters, Manolo Mendez, and several Master instructors from the Portuguese school as people I admire and seek out to learn from. I joined the Master class as one of the first. She advertised it as a small group of 30-40 that would get individual attention. That wasn’t true. She did NOT add anything about anyone else until someone would say something. In fact she didn’t want us posting anything from other trainers. This was HER platform. People did it anyway. She didn’t like it and started “approving posts.” That is why.
She lied about her credentials. Her business has been defunct due to lack of payment since March 2022 and it was the SECOND time it had been non payment. I was in the class and stopped participating in June 2022 because of the massive number of members all posting photos, the lack of actual information. And the pushing for one on one sessions. I have a real problem with her “teaching” “nerve release” to people with no knowledge of equine anatomy. And “certifying” them. With no accreditation. That just can’t be smart, nor safe.
BTW. TTW does not allow auditors. Never has.
They don’t bring in enough money, my guess. You seem to be a follower with just enough “naysay” to weasel favor for you and her. What do YOU think about a person “making a living” off of unsuspecting humans who, when they ask a rational question, are removed and blocked and castigated? How lovely is that? What good work is that? She has torn it with me from here to her “worldwide” adoring community. Also. A lie.

[lol_okay]

@Sticky_Situation

Furthermore, changing the photo angle ever so slightly makes a big difference in how balanced a horse looks in a picture. No photoshop needed.

Lol you all think I put a lot more work into these photos than I did. I stood my horse. I took a photo. And his performance and movement IS now uphill. I’ve documented him from the day I got him and have proved BTMM works.

Anyways. No matter what I say this group will find something wrong it it. Like much of the horse industry- the negative mob jumps on and tries to call it something else instead of having a conversation. And while Id love to hear how my camera faked the angles of the additional photo I posted above which clearly shows changes in conformation, I ain’t wasting energy with you guys.

[sascha]

@lol_okay

you all think I put a lot more work into these photos than I did. I stood my horse. I took a photo.

No. You have that backwards. We are saying for a true comparison to be made, a whole lot of effort needs to go into the taking of the photos so that the comparison is apples to apples and not mangos to planetoids.

Do yourself a favour - go and take 3 pictures of your horse standing still. Stand about 12’ back from the horse. Take the first picture when you are standing absolutely perpendicular to the head. Then, move a couple steps to the side and take another picture when you are standing perpendicular to the horse’s girth. For the third shot, take another couple of steps to the side and take the picture with you standing perpendicular to the hind quarters. Be sure to include the entire horse framed in the centre of the screen in all 3 shots. (You will need to turn your camera a bit to do that for the shots taken from either end of the horse)

1 shot will give your horse a big head. Another will give a more or less accurate representation. Another will make the horse (if it has a fairly decent hind end to begin with) look like it’s been spending a lot of time at the gym trying to remodel itself so it has an Impressive bred butt.

No Photoshop needed. Just a slight misalignment and slight angling of the camera.

[lol_okay]

I understand how angles work, I am an equine photographer. If I wanted to make him look like a stunning warmblood I could. The crooked ground line you see if because he is not parallel to the barn wall. It’s taken with my camera parallel to him - so it is correct. And I have millions of photos all with the same change at various angles, head position, in video, at all gaits. Not sure why it’s so hard to believe that this horse actually changed.

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

I can’t go thru the 600+ comments to figure this all out. Where were false claims made? Was it someone saying she said something that wasn’t true or was it written somewhere or? Your farm was s closed down because of Celeste?

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

I haven’t read all the comments. I don’t know about anything dishonest. Of course dishonestly isn’t ok. My comments are addressing what I do know about her & this work. I went in being skeptical & came out feeling like the “pillar” work was of value. She has done some affordable lectures both in person & live. SO much of what I’m seeing in the posts against her is not what I experienced. A lot of the claims against her are even opposite of what I saw with my own eyes. When I shared the claims were not my experience, the marker was moved & other gripes were brought up. Again, the FB group wasn’t worth it for me, but the actual work has value from what I’ve experienced first hand. I’d love to understand the claims about her being dishonest. If I knew exactly what she claimed (for sure, not just “a friend said her friend said) that was false I would most definitely investigate. That being said, her “pillars” work is working on horses I know personally. It’s so gentile & works with the horses nervous system, but also very effective. I will use it until I see something different than what I’m seeing.

[TwiSedai]

@lol_okay

And his performance and movement IS now uphill. I’ve documented him from the day I got him and have proved BTMM works.

Excellent. So share videos of his progress. That’s all anyone wants, pictures don’t really tell a good story. Show your horse’s movement before and now. Should be easy if you’ve been documenting it.

I have several friends that are body workers. They love to use before and after pics with lots of lines to “prove” results. I never have the heart to point out that the results they are showing are dependent on the line placement, which often is incorrect. Pictures are NOT a good way to show progress unless you are incredibly accurate in setting it up, and are easy to “fake” so it’s misleading, even unintentionally. In this case, the actual movement is WAY more important than what the horse looks like just standing.

[Sticky_Situation]

@lol_okay

I understand how angles work, I am an equine photographer. If I wanted to make him look like a stunning warmblood I could. The crooked ground line you see if because he is not parallel to the barn wall. It’s taken with my camera parallel to him - so it is correct. And I have millions of photos all with the same change at various angles, head position, in video, at all gaits. Not sure why it’s so hard to believe that this horse actually changed.

Alright, let’s say for the sake of discussion you show up with photos from the same angle, with the horse standing the same way, and it does indicate that the horse’s conformation has changed.

So what?

That does not mean the horse is now sound and was in pain before. We all know beautifully conformed horses that are barely pasture sound, and horses that look like they were built from spare parts that are sound in regular work well into their 20s.

I am not impressed by horses that have been made … better at standing still, I suppose?

Someone, anyone, show me a horse that was uncomfortable and unsound, and is now on its way to getting you your USDF Silver … hell, even Bronze. Show us Celeste riding a horse that’s been through the program and is now strong and sound and moving correctly, rather than one that’s just being started on her method. These still photos of stationary horses ain’t it.

[endlessclimb]

If I have time tonight, I’m going to show this transformation using my horse.

In 5 minutes, I shall do months of corrective body work.

[Kduplantis]

If you expect me to read your comments I expect you to read the others. This is a forum. She lies, misrepresents herself and can’t even keep her LLC current. She personally has threatened me. Yes. I closed my farm to clinics because of her threats. I am not the only one.

[K_VanOlst]

@Its_Not_About_the_Horses

I’d love to understand the claims about her being dishonest. If I knew exactly what she claimed (for sure, not just “a friend said her friend said) that was false I would most definitely investigate.

There are screenshots of various claims Celeste has made and then proof she has been lying if you scroll through the last 100 posts or so. Nobody is going to hand feed them to you though.

[Einhorn]

@Its_Not_About_the_Horses

I can’t go thru the 600+ comments to figure this all out.

Why do you need to though? You like her program and feel that you have had good results from it, horses for courses, and all that. Someone else has not had such a great experience, welcome to business on SM, people have opinions about you.

What does defending her get you?

[Scribbler]

About photos. I like to take annual conformation photos of my horse. Haven’t for a few years but I had a running FB post I updated for a while.

Within one photo shoot, the same horse can go from looking like a depressed aged no neck lesson horse to a beautiful alert creature. The big secret as said above is a crinkly peppermint wrapper held by the handler standing on a long lead outside the photo frame.

That kind of posture is fungible.

What does show consistently on a set of photos is topline, overall condition, and muscle development. Those change over time for better or worse, and your best happy ears/ bascule neck photo still shows the obese hay belly or the ribs etc.

If I’m not seeing much change at that level then it’s all down to pose. I know what a month of good inhand work during an icy winter can do to abs. It’s impressive. But that should be visible as a change.

And 100 per cent the influence on movement is key. It’s why we are doing these things.

[Its_Not_About_the_Horses]

It’s a shame to see people who clearly haven’t experienced her making claims against her. The work does work in my opinion & experience with it. Relaying actual experiences is one thing, but a lot of what I’m seeing here is not first hand experiences. I feel like a bigger question is what do people get out of bashing her, especially those who have never personally had any direct experiences with her? For me it’s that I’m always happy to see gentile effective work. Many, if not most of the comments I’m seeing here against her are not from people who have gone to a clinic, do they don’t even know what they are criticizing. That’s just unfortunate to me, because I do believe her work helps the horses, that’s all.