Thoughts on this deworming schedule? - New question post 19

[Libby2563]

Sorry, pretty boring topic for a Sunday morning…

I found this deworming schedule somewhere online (I can’t for the life of me figure out where…I think a Maryland vet’s office but who knows which). It seems more logical to me than what most barns around here do, which is basically to rotate through dewormers, administering every other month regardless of horses’ needs or the effective period of each drug. I like that fecal testing determines whether a horse gets wormed and with what. But I don’t know much about the topic. Can anyone comment on whether this is a good plan? I am in Maryland and have two horses (one 20, one 3) and a mini-donkey (7ish).

And if anyone can clarify September that would be great too. It says to get a fecal only for horses with a count above 150 epg in July and to deworm only horses with a count above 150 epg in September. So if you have a horse that is negative in July you would not do a fecal, but then you wouldn’t know what its count is now and whether to deworm. Probably the answer is to just do the fecal for that one horse, right? (Downside: the lab is just far enough away from me and has hours that match my work hours closely enough that it’s a pain to get fecals done, and going for one horse would seem silly. But it can be done.)

Thanks!

[Kolsch]

http://vmceaston.com/animal-hospital-easton-md/articles-links-veterinary-medical-center.php

Click on targeted deworming.

[Simkie]

That seems like a whole lotta deworming. Perhaps appropriate for a very busy boarding barn?

Certainly better than rotating with a new wormer every 8 weeks and never checking a fecal, but still probably a little on the aggressive and intense side of things.

We’ve had mucho discussion here, often led by JB, about worming and appropriate time for fecals, and what to do with high shedders. I can tell you that I was ALL EXCITED when I brought my horses home to really hone in on their EXACT deworming needs…and it’s been so anticlimactic. No one sheds anything. I do Quest Plus in the spring and Equimax in the fall and that’s it and they’re all great. Ho-hum. How boring :lol:

[Texarkana]

Wow, not exactly the most user friendly protocol I’ve ever read. I think because they tried to protocolize what to do for high shedders, which makes the whole thing look way more complicated than it needs to be. The thing I’ve found about high shedders is that with good management, they often become lower shedders. So it’s easier to just deal with them on a case by case basis.

This schedule isn’t drastically different than what I do myself with the input from my local veterinarian, recent data coming out of “local” veterinary schools, and the AAEP. But there are some things on there that, IMO, are atypical and have me scratching my head…

My big question mark is the ERP and the timing intervals they are using. They are recommending resampling FECs and deworming immediately at the end of the ERP. The AAEP recommends waiting about 2-4 weeks beyond the ERP (it varies a little by product), you know, so eggs can actually reappear. This program’s cutoff of 150 EPG to determine whether or not to deworm is a little lower than typical (most people seem to accept up to 200 EPG as a “low shedder”), so maybe that’s why?

Giving all horses a dose of ivermectin in July is not something I’ve seen recommended in a strategic deworming program for the mid-Atlantic area, although I’ll admit, it’s something I’ve pondered myself. Ivermectin is the only product effective against Habronema spp., which cause the summer sores for which bots are often falsely blamed. However, if you don’t have a problem with summer sores, it seems silly to me to give it when it’s not needed considering what we’ve learned about resistance and parasite refugia.

As for the clarification on September, if your horse is less than 150 EPG in July, you won’t be doing anything with said horse in September according to this plan. No FEC, no deworming.

Have you been doing FECs regularly with your herd? Once you’ve been doing them awhile, you can usually get a good feel for who is typically high and who is typically low. If you don’t have any extremely high shedders, you will be able to simplify this plan a lot.

[Ryle]

While it is better than a rotational program, it is not the best. It would also not be appropriate for locations with very hot dry summers, such as southern states in the US where reinfection rates are lowest in the summer months. You also have to take into account the management of the horses. Are they stalled all the time? Are they on pasture? Is the pasture adequate or overgrazed? Are feces picked up out of pastures and paddocks regularly. These factors will have a big affect on deworming protocols.

The basis of any deworming program should be spring and fall dewormings with an avermectin (ivermectin or moxidectin) to treat bots and small strongyls. At least one of those should include praziquantel to treat tapeworms as well. Other than that, dewormings should be based upon fecal egg counts.

Fecal egg counts can be run for 2 reasons: to determine when deworming is necessary and to determine if a particular drug is still effective. To measure effectiveness, you run an FEC, deworm, and then rerun an FEC in 10-14 days. You are looking for a 95% drop in egg numbers. To determine when to deworm, you run an FEC at the appropriate time after deworming based upon the last drug used and then deworm if the numbers are high. For pyrantel or fenbendazole, you can retest as early as 4 week after use but it is better to wait at least 8 weeks otherwise you can get a falsely low count. For ivermectin, recheck in 12 weeks and for moxidectin recheck in 16 weeks. Again, you could test earlier with these two drugs but you would run the risk of getting a deceptively low count and then not deworm when it was really necessary. For areas where summer weather is moderate (not above 85 degrees F regularly and dry), you want to be checking FECs in the summer. For areas where winter weather is routinely below 45 degrees, the environmental conditions minimize parasite reinfection rates during those months. For areas where summer weather is very hot and dry and winters are moderate, you want to run FECs in the winter.

[Libby2563]

Thank you all!! I was really hoping to hear it is a good plan. I will have to do more research to find something better. Normally I enjoy horse management research but on this topic I can’t get excited.

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8750833]
Have you been doing FECs regularly with your herd? Once you’ve been doing them awhile, you can usually get a good feel for who is typically high and who is typically low. If you don’t have any extremely high shedders, you will be able to simplify this plan a lot.[/QUOTE]

I have, and my guys are all over the place. Each of them has been negative and high, at different times, which is part of why I think I need a new system.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=Libby2563;8752560]
Thank you all!! I was really hoping to hear it is a good plan. I will have to do more research to find something better. Normally I enjoy horse management research but on this topic I can’t get excited.

I have, and my guys are all over the place. Each of them has been negative and high, at different times, which is part of why I think I need a new system.[/QUOTE]

If you don’t mind me asking, how are you handling deworming now and when are you doing your FECs?

The main thing I don’t like about the plan you shared is the over-aggressiveness/fast turnaround after the egg reappearance period. Most professionals today condone the concept of parasite refugia, saying it’s ok for horses to have a low number of parasites that haven’t been exposed to anthelmintics. The idea is that it’s better to allow a small population of parasites that are susceptible to dewormers persist, otherwise the only parasites left to reproduce will be the resistant bugs, and their numbers will increase unchecked without competition. I’ve done FECs on horses coming out of big boarding farms with super aggressive rotational deworming programs where the horses were dewormed 6+ times a year, yet still have counts over 1000 EPG! :eek:

The program you shared, while better than a blind rotation, seems to expose horses to dewormer a little more frequently than most targeted deworming programs. So unless you are dealing with such a high parasite burden that it needs to be intercepted quickly, the program is going to allow for less parasite refugia and more potential resistance over time.

At their most basic, the foundation of most strategic deworming programs today is just two dewormings with ivermectin or moxidectin: one in the early spring and one in the late fall. One or both of those dewormings should include praziquantel for tapes. All other dewormings are done strictly on an “as needed” basis when the FEC rises above 200 EPG.

On my farm, the way this looks is:
-Mid-March, FEC, deworm everyone with Quest or Quest Plus
-June or July, FEC, deworm only horses with FEC above 200 EPG with Strongid or Strongid & Anthelcide
-September, FEC, deworm only horses with FEC above 200 EPG with Strongid or Strongid & Anthelcide
-Late November/Early December, FEC, deworm everyone with Equimax

I occasionally do a reduction test on the higher shedders, just to make sure chemicals are still working. Dates are fluid and depend more on what the weather is doing and when the last dose was given, since deworming too soon after a prior deworming increases the likelihood of resistance problems.

What works for me may not work for you and your situation. Things like climate, amount of turnout/grazing, age of animals, turnover of horses, etc. all can affect when and how you will deworm. Also, I do my FECs myself, so they are convenient (and free).

[JB]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8750822]
We’ve had mucho discussion here, often led by JB, about worming and appropriate time for fecals, and what to do with high shedders. I can tell you that I was ALL EXCITED when I brought my horses home to really hone in on their EXACT deworming needs…and it’s been so anticlimactic. No one sheds anything. I do Quest Plus in the spring and Equimax in the fall and that’s it and they’re all great. Ho-hum. How boring :lol:[/QUOTE]

:lol: :lol: Right? Boring!

The April deworming is good - Equimax or Quest Plus, preferably QP. The reason is moxidectin doesn’t kill dung beetles and they are most active in Spring and early Summer before it gets really hot. I also am not quite sure why they use 150epg as the cutoff, as normally it’s 200. The month is less important than the temperatures - you want temps to be reliably above 45*, as that’s the point at which eggs will start to hatch into infective larva.

June - not necessary for anyone without a FEC. And, the timing is off. If QP is used in April, nothing is necessary for at least 12 weeks, and a FEC should be done 4 weeks after that, so you’re not going to deworm anyone after QP for at least 16 weeks which is more like August. You’d want a FEC before deworming anyone so if you are going to try the high-resistance chemicals - oxibendazole, fenbendazole, pyrantel pamoate - you can determine the resistance on your farm, which may or may not be an issue. This is one of the few protocols I’ve seen recommend oxi and pp used together to be more effective than either separately, so that’s good (and they are right). But you still want to know if that combo is effective enough

July - in MD, there is no point in deworming all horse just as a matter of fact. Temps are almost guaranteed to be reliably above 85*, at which time any eggs hatching would die, and eggs themselves will start dying. As well, if QP was used in April, it’s pointless anyway. If you happened to use Equimax for some reason, and you had a high shedder in April, then you’d want a FEC 12 weeks after the Equimax (8 weeks effectiveness, 4 weeks to allow eggs to reappear), so that’s the July timeframe. But you still might not need to deworm, as the April high count might have been an anomaly. If you have an unusually cool and/or wet Summer, then you might be deworming more frequently for moderate to high shedders.

Sept - a good time to do the late Summer FEC on all horses. Anyone moderate or higher, gets dewormed, either plain ivermectin if you have resistance issues to the chemicals mentioned above, or, ideally, one of the other 3 if you are able (to save your -ectin chemicals ). If you have low shedders, then save your deworming until a good freeze, as that will all but eliminate botflies, and temps will be pretty effective in preventing much in the way of eggs hatching.

Oct - no need to do another FEC as you just did one, and either dewormed, or you’re waiting a bit longer.

Nov - Agree on the chemicals to use, but it’s really a waste to do a FEC on anyone, unless perhaps you want to check the status of the mod-high shedder(s) from Sept, but personally, I wouldn’t bother. You’re going to deworm anyway.

[Libby2563]

Thank you both so much!

JB: is this an appropriate summary of what you suggest? (I’m using trade rather than chemical names because it’s easier for me to shop.) How often and when would you repeat a FEC after deworming to check for resistance?

April:
FEC: yes, on all horses before deworming
Deworm: all horses with Quest Plus (preferable) or Equimax

July: only if Equimax used in April
FEC: on all horses
Deworm: only moderate or high shedders–with what chemical?

September:
FEC: yes, on all horses
Deworm: only moderate or high shedders (EPG > 200) with oxibendazole, fenbendazole, or pyrantel pamoate (or ivermectin if horse is resistant to those)

November: after first frost if possible
FEC: only if needed to check on high shedders from September
Deworm: all horses with Equimax or Quest Plus

@Texarkana

If you don’t mind me asking, how are you handling deworming now and when are you doing your FECs?

Tex: I can’t give you specifics at the moment because I don’t have the records with me, but to answer your questions generally for now… I have had my horses at home for 2 years. Moved them in July of 2014 and pretty much continued the rotational schedule that the boarding barn had been doing for the next year and a half (which is also my vet’s standard recommendation). This year I wanted to try something more targeted. I have not been doing fecals as strategically as I should have been, mostly because of the inconvenience of getting them to the lab. (This year I did one in March because I had to be in the town where the lab is for work for two days, so I carried bags of poo in my lunch and drove over to the lab on a break. :lol:) I would say I have done them twice a year on average, before deworming, which I realize doesn’t help to identify resistance.

As I mentioned, the FEC numbers have kind of been all over the place. My 20-year-old, who was negative last week and this March, was 1000+ at one point last year. :eek: The other two were moderate (3-year-old) and high (donkey) this time but have both been negative in the past too. I haven’t really seen enough of a pattern to say whether anyone is a high or low shedder in general.

The horses are in stalls with free access to small individual dry lots (picked daily) about half the time and turned out on decent pasture the other half (overnight in summer, during the day in winter). They all go out together. I finally got all of my cross-fencing up this year so I can rotate, yay! I have three sections that are about an acre each. My plan is to drag each section when I move the horses off it, at least in the summer when the heat can dry out the manure. I’ve tried to pick the pasture before but cannot ever seem to make a dent.

I’ve had the same three boys for the full two years, so no turnover. My farm is surrounded by four other horse farms, the closest turnout area being about 50 feet from my pasture (separated by one gravel driveway, one paved driveway, and a vegetated slope), so I don’t know if there could be contamination from outside? All three have been boarded off-property for a couple weeks or a couple months at least once in the last two years, so they have had the opportunity to pick up things from outside.

Does any of this info change your recommendations?

[Wonders12]

I feel you, OP. The switch was a hard one to get my head around, but once you have a plan, it actually makes life easier.

Our schedule was very similar to the one above. 2x/year for low or no shedders, 3x/year for medium, and 4x/year for high shedders.

BUT this Spring I attended a seminar with our vets and a Merial vet who are now pushing for 1x, 2x, 4x instead. The researched supported it and I figured when a pharmaceutical company is yelling you to buy FEWER products, that’s saying something. Our vet was excited that we were willing to change our schedule; must horse owners feel that’s “too few dewormings” even if the science supports otherwise. I think the plan is to slowly get us all there. :lol:

Unfortunately, this is our first year on this schedule so I don’t have fall fecals yet, but everyone seems to be doing fine on this plan.

This is what our vets recommend: http://irongateequine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/IEC-deworming-protocol.pdf

They also said once we have a good baseline of FECs on a horse, to only continue regular FECs on our high shedders. The rest can drop to FECs once per year or every other year once you have good data.

Don’t forget to test for resistance too! That’s something you really only need to check in your high shedders, and it can be done in the first year or two of your program unless you start seeing strange FECs/noticing symptoms.

[JB]

@Libby2563;8754533

Thank you both so much!

JB: is this an appropriate summary of what you suggest? (I’m using trade rather than chemical names because it’s easier for me to shop.) How often and when would you repeat a FEC after deworming to check for resistance?

April:
FEC: yes, on all horses before deworming
Deworm: all horses with Quest Plus (preferable) or Equimax

Yes

July: only if Equimax used in April
FEC: on all horses
Deworm: only moderate or high shedders–with what chemical?

No FEC on anyone unless it’s a mod-high shedder who had Equimax in April
IF there’s a mod-high count, deworm with Safeguard/Panacur, or Strongid Paste, and do another FEC 10-14 days after to test resistance. If there’s resistance, you can try the other one and if STILL resistance, use plain ivermectin. A bit costly to do this but it’s REALLY wonderful to know if you can use either of those chemicals to save ivermectin

September:
FEC: yes, on all horses
Deworm: only moderate or high shedders (EPG > 200) with oxibendazole, fenbendazole, or pyrantel pamoate (or ivermectin if horse is resistant to those)

If you used ivermectin in July, it’s too soon to deworm or do a FEC - need to wait 12 weeks

November: after first frost if possible
FEC: only if needed to check on high shedders from September
Deworm: all horses with Equimax or Quest Plus

yes, but if Sept used ivermectin, then need to wait 12 weeks, not 8, to do a FEC

That just makes it sound more complicated than it needs to be

FEC in late Winter/early Spring on everyone. Deworm, regardless of count, with QP.

FEC in late Summer/early Fall on everyone. If clear, wait for a good freeze, then use Equimax. If mod-high, see above re: strongid/safeguard/panacur/ivermectin

Additional FECs are only needed in between the 2 Spring/Fall FECs, and really only for anyone of concern. For you, Winter will be a more likely scenario for additional deworming than the Summer, especially given the part time dry lot.

[JB]

@Wonders12;8754840

This is what our vets recommend: http://irongateequine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/IEC-deworming-protocol.pdf

That’s one of the best one-page-wonders I’ve seen :yes:

Most areas of the country should have tapes targeted twice a year. I think WI might be in an area where 1x is enough.

Don’t forget to test for resistance too! That’s something you really only need to check in your high shedders, and it can be done in the first year or two of your program unless you start seeing strange FECs/noticing symptoms.

You can, and probably should do FECRTs (FEC Resistance Tests) on the moderate shedders too, it just all depends on how high the number is (ie low moderate vs high moderate). It’s just easier to get a better RT if you have a higher number. It is more likely that multiple horses will have the same resistance issues on a given farm as long as they have all been on that farm long enough. Newcomers can have a resistant-to-fenbendazole strongyle colony while the old timers don’t, so that’s a definite thing to make note of - you can’t assume just because existing horses don’t have resistance issues, that others coming in are safe as well.

[Texarkana]

Libby, if it were me with your data, I’d want to get at least a good year’s worth of seasonal FECs to try to establish a trend. After that, you can probably back off to once or twice a year if you choose.

Horses’ shedding status can change, but you should start to see some patterns of who trends high and who trends low.

I also used to see more dramatic fluctuation with my own horses FECs when I boarded and did rotational deworming. I suspect widespread resistance to many chemicals in the rotation was to blame, as well as less frequency and consistency in timing with the FECs.

[Libby2563]

[QUOTE=JB;8754875]
FEC in late Winter/early Spring on everyone. Deworm, regardless of count, with QP.

FEC in late Summer/early Fall on everyone. If clear, wait for a good freeze, then use Equimax. If mod-high, see above re: strongid/safeguard/panacur/ivermectin

Additional FECs are only needed in between the 2 Spring/Fall FECs, and really only for anyone of concern. For you, Winter will be a more likely scenario for additional deworming than the Summer, especially given the part time dry lot.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this is starting to make sense. Thank you, JB and Tex!!

So assuming QP is used in early spring (let’s say April 1), 12 weeks falls in late June and 16 weeks in late July. But in Maryland it’s usually hot and dry enough in July and August that I should not need to deworm then anyway, so it’s okay to wait until September for another FEC. Correct?

[JB]

FEC anyway if you don’t have a baseline, for anyone who was mod/high in April. Most likely they will be fine. But you want to know sooner rather than later if their immune system is struggling. That’s the “Additional FECs…” sentence.

For the low shedders in April no, you don’t need a FEC until late Sept/early Oct.

[Libby2563]

Reviving this thread. Just when I thought I had this all figured out…

I bought 4 tubes of Quest Plus for this spring. Then I brought home a lease horse whose owner will not use Quest for safety reasons. I was thinking I would use Equimax on him and QP on my three. Now she says she only ever uses strongid or ivermectin, implying that she only wants me to use those two I believe. So what the heck do I use now, and when? Double dose of Strongid for tapes? If I’m going to have him 1-2 years, should I keep him on her plan since she’s comfortable with it?

The good news is the horse’s fecal was negative, but of course he could have things that don’t show up on a fecal, like tapeworms.

[JB]

While praziquantel (in the Equimax) is more effective against tapes than double pyrantel pamoate (Strongid), it’s not a great deal more effective, so it’s ok to do the double Strongid.

I would ask her specifically why only those 2. Explain what Equimax is. If she still doesn’t want that, then yeah, you’ll just have to do double Strongid (or any of the cheaper brands, just make sure it’s pyrantel pamoate), and ivermectin, and you can do them together for a “single” deworming. It’s just a LOT of paste LOL

[Libby2563]

Thanks as always, JB!

[Libby2563]

@JB

No FEC on anyone unless it’s a mod-high shedder who had Equimax in April
IF there’s a mod-high count, deworm with Safeguard/Panacur, or Strongid Paste, and do another FEC 10-14 days after to test resistance. If there’s resistance, you can try the other one and if STILL resistance, use plain ivermectin. A bit costly to do this but it’s REALLY wonderful to know if you can use either of those chemicals to save ivermectin.

Okay, I have been following this protocol for about two years now but have not religiously rechecked fecals after deworming, and recently discovered that apparently I really do need to. I did my summer fecal test and 3 out of my 4 beasts were “moderate” or “heavy” positive for “strongyle-type eggs” (the donkey, the 5-year-old horse, and the new 7-year-old pony). I dewormed with Strongid and retested 2 weeks later. Pony was down to “light” positive, donkey and horse both still “heavy”. I dewormed just the two of them with Safeguard and retested again 2 weeks later. Horse is finally “light” but donkey is still “moderate.” I suppose now I will try ivermectin on him and retest again?? I’m also going to double check his weight with a donkey-specific formula to make sure he’s getting enough, though I was erring on the side of a little extra already.

Question for @JB or @Texarkana or whoever else wants to help me out: what do I do with this information? Do I avoid Strongid entirely from now on since 2 out of 3 equines did not see a reduction on it? Or do I use Strongid on the pony, Safeguard on the horse, and ivermectin on the donkey (presuming his next retest is negative)? (That would be kind of annoying since I can usually split/share tubes amongst them since the horses need more than one tube each and the little guys need less than one.)

Also, any deworming advice specific to donkeys? Tex, I know you have them too. I happened to find this old thread of yours, https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…he-donkey–did you ever get any resolution? Do you deworm your donks differently than your horses?

One piece of good news: my old man (22 this year) had a heavy egg load when I first moved him home despite years of rotational deworming at various boarding facilities, but has now been a consistently low shedder on this protocol. Yay!

[IPEsq]

I think I’d skip Strongid in the future. Use something like Ivermectin or Quest. Might use Quest on the bigger horses but not the smaller guys?