I think Hunter’s Rest answered most of your questions, but I’ll provide a few further thoughts from a rider’s perspective, and from someone based in MD (land of the “big timber”) rather than VA.
Yes, in MD and PA there are several racing trainers devoted solely to jump racing. Some are wealthy and don’t have to make a living at it, but others, like Leslie Young, train racehorses as their livelihood. You won’t get rich, but you can certainly make a living at it.
As Hunter’s Rest points out, many timber horses are just failed flat or hurdle horses that show an aptitude for jumping. However, more and more I am seeing English and Irish 'chasers being bought in the UK specifically to come to the US to run over timber. The purses are big enough now ($100k for the MD Hunt Cup and VA Gold Cup, &c.) that this makes a certain amount of sense. Guts for Garters was bought in the UK with the specific goal of winning the Hunt Cup for example, and many other top timber and steeplethon horses are imports (Drift Society, Lemony Bay, &c.). With any luck, I’ll have the ride on another UK import in the Spring called Pied Du Roi.
On the hurdling side, at this point I’d say the majority of the winners, especially at the stakes level, are imports.
I can’t add anything to Hunter’s Rest answers to your training questions, she’s right on everything, but from I rider’s perspective, I can add that I on the mornings I ride out, I get on between 4 and 6 a day. I think this is fairly typical for those that ride on the farm. If you ride at the track (say, at Pimlico) you will get on many more.
Something else I thought of - while UK hurdles and fences are both considered ‘soft’ and ‘hedges,’ the 'chase fences are far bigger - often crazy bigger, than hurdles, so when a US horse ships to run, say, in the National (Jay Trump, Ben Nevis, Battleship), they tend to have been running (here) over timber - bigger jumps requiring a ‘bigger jump’.
A US hurdle horse wouldn’t be shoved straight 'over ‘chase fences’ in the UK b/c the jumping style/requirement is somewhat different.
The US hurdlers who’ve gone over - Lonesome Glory, Flatterer - were champions over hurdles here and raced over hurdles there.
There was a single UK timber race - the Marlborough Cup, run just two or three times, not far from Lambourn. Saluter, US timber champion, raced in it in '97 and '98. He won in '97, fell in '98. The win gave him the World Timber Championship and a $100,000 bonus prize for winning the Marlborough Cup and the Va. Gold Cup in succession, in addition to the two sizable purses.
The race was abandoned after '98.
When a UK hurdler is imported to the US,sometimes stays running over hurdles, or is reschooled in the off-season for timber.
An import already running ‘over fences’ (which is the way you’d put it if you’re in England/Ireland - ‘over fences’='chase fences), would be expected to easily and directly swap to timber since the bascule is already confirmed.
Just wanted to share this because it is one of my favorite verses in poetry. It is from a 19th-century poem, about a fictional hunt cup in a fictitious county in England. I’ve loved it from my first reading of it, and the more I’ve learned about steeplechasing the more I’m understanding it:
"He calls ‘hunted fairly’ a horse that has barely Been stripp’d for a trot within sight of the hounds, A horse that at Warwick beat Birdlime and Yorick, And gave Abdelkader at Aintree nine pounds.
Some time back, maybe 2009, there was a drop dead gorgeous flat racer that was in some big races, but he never won anything of note. His connections moved him to timber races I remember he won or placed well in several. My computer crashed later that year and I lost my virtual stable so I don’t have any details on that horse. All I remember is he was big, black, and gorgeous. If I remember right he was in the same group of runners as Mine That Bird, so it should be 2009.
I wanted to follow that guy. Anyone know who I’m thinking of Was it Big Drama
If memory serves those BIG looking “fences” in the Grand National and others of like are not “solid”. These days they have a plastic frame and filled with the “green”. I believe the “highest solid” part of the fences on the Grand National course is around 48 inches at best. The horses “brush” through the top 1+ feet.
The “hurdle” fences in this country are basically a “roll top” , The solid part 30 inches wide, 30 inches high. With a thick “gym” type mat on them. The back of it has a metal frame that 23 inches plastic “brush” is placed in. It is “graduated” sloping. So the "total height is 53 inches.
But the trick is, if you want your horse to win. You have to train them to hurdle, brush through the top 23 inches. The only have to clear the solid 2-6 “roll top”. Horses that jump too “big” don’t hurdle but take off from the bottom like a Timber horses will be hard pressed to win. They will loose momentum and distance at every jump to good hurdlers.
Some trainers in this country as a rule start their horses over our "national fences, hurdle fences. The perennial leading trainer Jack Fisher pretty much always does. There is just far more money and opportunity for hurdle horses than Timber horses.
When a hurdle horses lose their form over hurdles and or aren’t very good, competitive they are switched, tried over Timber. But the transition is not very easy for the majority of them. It can be very difficult to get the “hurdle” out of them. They tend to fall at a lot of fences and or are just too cautious to be competitive with top level dedicated from day one Timber “specialist”.
I would not be real keen on riding an ex-hurdle horse over Timber the first couple of times, lol.
Pretty much all of the horses in a leading jumps trainer’s barn are hurdle horses. Sheppard trains the odd one, but that’s only because it was a last chance for the horses. As Sheppard and others say, “there’s no money in Timber”.
Me, my only interest is in Timber horses. Hurdle horses bore me. Most owners especially those from Maryland and some from Virginia are either Timber owners or hurdle owners. I from Maryland grew up in Timber racing. My great grand parents started the My Lady’s Manor race in 1909. Owned, trained and ran a horse in the 100th anniversary of the race. My grandfather was a top Timber jock in the teens and 20s’. Numerous cousins, family have ridden, owned, trained Timber horses for over 100 years now. I never won as rider any important races. Started race riding way too late at 54. But I did continue our families tradition. My names in the book, as an “also ran”, lol.
A couple of pictures of the My Lady’s Manor owner’s and riders trophy’s that my Great Grand Parents (Pearce) and grandfather won. The Bowl on the left is from the second running in 1910.
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@gumtree What a cool and incredible story (and thank you for the photograph).
I recently watched a video of the 2017 Maryland Hunt Cup–only two horses completed the race. Yikes! I can see why people would be reluctant to transition a new horse from jumping hurdle races to timber, based upon your analysis of the different styles. Even very experienced horses get into trouble.
That’s interesting that there is more money in hurdle races–more and more it seems like the timber races are really a labor of love and tradition by the owners. How many horses do the owners keep in their barns at any one time? I know flat racing operations can be huge.
@gumtree, I think your accomplishments are pretty impressive. I’m an ‘also watched’ so I think your ‘also ran’ is at the top! Beautiful trophys.
My friend that is originally from KY has several silver trophys from the hunt cub her family was in. They raced thoroughbreds and a few standardbreds. She has a picture of their stallion in the KY Derby running neck and neck with the eventual winner. When they moved to CA they switched to only racing standardbreds. But she has pictures of herself, Susie Hutchinson, and Jimmy Williams riding her personal thoroughbreds. Big memories!
Gestalt - Mr. Hot Stuff is a hurdle stake horse, not timber! He won the $400,000 (American) Grand National this fall at Far Hills.
Impractical Horsewoman - The MHC is not representative of ‘timber racing’ in the US! It is like the (English) Grand National is to ‘normal’ ‘chasing in England. It is an oddball horse that wins the MHC and the English National. It is a superstar horse that wins those marquis/one-off races plus wins over more average courses.
More normal timber fences are 3’6" to 4’ of slip-rail or post and bound. Some courses jump a little ‘smaller’ than that, others a little larger. But at 5’, the MHC is definitely king of the American timber game.
Thanks, The first picture was the Manor Races a few years ago. Shortly before I “aged out” at 59 and couldn’t be re-licensed to ride NSA sanctioned races. Missed my chance for a go at the Maryland Hunt Cup. Had a pretty special horse, the one in the second picture. A beautifully bred Dynaformer gelding that I acquired as early 5 year old who had pulled a suspensory at 3. Incredibly talented jumper. The longer, further he ran the stronger he got. Could “ping” 5++ feet with ease.
The folks in the game said he was one of the most talented Timber horses they had ever seen run. If it wasn’t for soundness issues he “could have been one of the all times greats”. “A comedy of errors” in some important Timber stakes races kept him from being in the record books. Long back story.
He is/was a Timber horse of a lifetime. A Timber horse that those of us in the game with limited means only dream about. Folks, owners esp in the Timber side of jump racing are ALL looking for a HUNT CUP horse. There are other Timber races that have “Hunt Cup” in their name. But there is only one HUNT CUP, The Maryland Hunt Cup that that all owners, Timber trainers, Timber jocks REALLY want to win. A bit of obsession for most, lol.
Where as in recent decades lots of flat racing owners are willing to pay BIG bucks for a horse that will or has a very good chance of getting in the starting gate the first Saturday in May win, lose or draw, The Kentucky Derby. They are hard to find, VERY expensive to buy once they show some form. But it is good enough for most owners and their trainers to run if a “hopeless” Derby horse.
The Maryland Hunt Cup is a different “type” of race when it comes to the “mind set” of those hoping to find a Hunt Cup horse to run and the folks who train them. By and large as a rule an owner understands, knows the “unwritten rules”. One ONLY enters, sends a horse to the Hunt Cup that is truly worthy, is a ligament Hunt Cup horse. If not ANY Timber trainer with any self respect will tell them, sorry, you have a nice horse but not a Hunt Cup horse.
Unlike the Grand National that can have more than 40 runners in it. The average field size for the Hunt Cup I would bet is around 10. I would bet and IMO it is the HARDEST TB race to find, come up a horse that is worthy of running in it.
About 10 years ago or so I was very flattered to be interviewed and have an article written about me, our farm and a “talking” Derby horse we bred and sold. Some horse I bought as agent for clients that almost got into the starting gate the first Saturday in May. When asked what would it mean to me to bred and or own a Derby winning horse. “That’s a simple question to answer; It would give me the financial means to go out and hopefully find and train a Hunt Cup horses” The writer didn’t know what I meant by “Hunt Cup” horses, lol. I also said the chances of me owning a Derby horse was slim to none. If I did breed and or own one there is no way I could afford to still own it when come Derby day. I am not in a financial postilion to turn down $3-4-$5 million dollars for a horse that shows enough form to be considered a Derby horse. I am a racing fool, but I am not stupid, lol. I have chance potential Derby horses for clients off and on over the years. They have had me make ridiculous offers for most of them. Most potential Derby horses are owned by very wealthy people. One of my favorite “thanks but no thanks” turn down offers. Larry, that’s a heck of an offer and only a fool would turn it down. But money I have lots of, a lot easier for me to come by than a Derby horse, lol.
These are a couple of books that are a fun read on the back ground historical facts of Maryland Timber racing. The one on the My Lady’s Manor Races commemorating the 100th running is written by the owner and wife of the trainer and mother of the rider of the great Von Csadek. The 1992 winner of the Hunt Cup. IMO one the all time great Timber horses, just missed become a Timber legend. But in my mind and recollection a truly spectacular Timber horse that should have retired the Hunt Cup trophy. Just unlucky in subsequent running. I think their son Patrick who rode him was 16 at the time. I may be wrong to lazy to look up the youngest jock to win the race. They did send Von Csadek to the short lived English Timber race that Hunter’s Rest talked about. The Worrall’s are not Maryland “horse gentry” just Timber racing fools like me and others. I owned a jump horse when I had no business let alone income.owning a Timber horses, lol. Took me years to pay off the bills.
The Hunt Cup books are choke-a-block full of stats and details historical stuff.
I’ve learned more on this thread than I think I have on any other. Very interesting facts on timber racing and it’s great to have tidbits from an insider. Thanks to you, gumtree, and thanks to Hunters Rest.
@gumtree thanks for sharing your family’s history.
Who knew the jocks could age out. :eek:
Your descriptions of timber vs hurdle makes sense on why you’d want to be careful which “direction” you might want to transition an over fences horse so you minimize the splats.
True that seeing the fences on TV you don’t always get the appreciation of how much is “solid” vs how much is brush that can be jumped “through” rather than jumping over.
On Thur/Fri/Sat/Sun, TVG will often in the mornings broadcast Sky’s coverage from the UK with both flat (well, not over fences) as well as fence races. Fun to watch and I really respect the jocks when they realize they don’t have the horse to continue to be competitive in the race, they do pull up rather than persist.
I also love the, I don’t know what you call it, non-starting gate starts with the tape across the track. The horses are all mostly well behaved and the start is fairly calm and organized. Yes, I know they’re going a bit longer than 7f
Yes, @gumtree thank you so much for sharing that! Not just for the information but also the passion fueling the sport.
Once again, I am amazed at the breadth of experience on these forums.
There really needs to be an in-depth documentary on this! I agree @Gestalt - I’ve learned more on this thread than I have on any other, as well as how much I don’t know.
@Gestalt I was trying to be subtle and not make the thread all about me but I’m afraid you’ve found me out! :lol:
I have to say that I’m so glad I brought up this topic, regardless! I didn’t anticipate how much history and technical detail there was to the sport. And I still have much to learn. So much to learn.
Well I think gumtree has done a great job educating us about timber and hurtle racing. My experiences have only been at the “cups” in Atlanta and Camden over the years. I knew and watched in person flat racing for decades but my only experiences with the others has been at Atlanta and Camden. Thank you gumtree. You’ve done well and your family has a long history in racing.
Now where can I get one of those horses gumtree rode, the “also rans?” Good enough for drag hunting here.
Where’s My White - US jump racing for a short time used the tapes – which happened to coincide with my decade riding races. Very dangerous for a fractious horse at the start – and probably 1 in 10 is pretty damned light on their feet. Many horses/riders got tangled in that awful, strung-high elastic line before NSA abandoned it maybe 25 years ago.
Was it Big Drama
no offense intended. I just remember him moving from flat racing to jump racing.
