@Hunter’s Rest Just out of curiosity, why do they still use tapes in the UK, despite the risk? Tradition? That does sound awful.
I don’t know. Those horses don’t seem to get into as much trouble.
Perhaps Bugboy can weigh in - I rode at Cheltenham in England and Leopardstown in Ireland, and I think they did not start behind a tape then (1988.)
Interesting that it was abandoned so long ago here but still used in the UK. Seems that the horses I’ve seen in the races that start that way are pretty well behaved; occasionally some dancing around but overall seem to be more in control.
For the races in the UK, it is still used because those tracks don’t have a starting gate or is it a type of race that uses that ‘bunch’ start?
Jump races don’t use a starting gate. Flat races don’t use a tape.
Ask Jonathan Smart how he ‘liked’ the tape start.
In the US now they use a box start - orange cones set in a rectangle big enough to contain all starters in a straight-ish line across the track. Starters are without exception former jockeys, who have a superb feel for the action down at the start, definitely one of the most dangerous places for horses and riders.
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I can’t say why some UK tracks are still using the tape - I just have no idea. That question does raise an interesting point, though, which is, in my experience, the horses that have run in England and Ireland are just plain easier at the start. Not all, of course, but in general. I rode a 6 year old hurdler this year that would walk into the start box on the buckle - lead in, go in last, walk in while being jostled by the others, all no problem; and that’s not atypical. I’ve found the US breds to be, again, in general, more difficult at the start and in the paddock, etc. I rode an otherwise excellent timber horse who basically lost his mind until the flag dropped - hard to get to the start, flipped over backwards in the paddock (thankfully, only did that once), etc. Perhaps because the US horses generally having switched from flat racing (and a starting gate) while more of the imports have started their careers as jumpers? Not sure, but using the tape in the US would definitely be a disaster.
I would definitely agree using the tape in the US based on most of the behind the gate behavior I’ve seen. Most are good but definitely more keyed up than the UK races. I love seeing the across the pond TBs race here where many don’t even use a lead pony and just walk calmly in the post parade 
IMO, worse than the TBs are the QHs. I suspect some of their “behavior” is being keyed up for a very short, quick burst of speed but I generally think the assistant starters for the QH races at Los Al almost always have their hands full both getting the horses in the gate and then keeping them straight so the starter can get the gate open. IIRC, they also don’t seem to wear the helmets and chest protectors that I see on the assistant starts for the TBs (which I think is scary).
@Where’sMyWhite Do you think the difference in behavior between UK and US racehorses is due mainly to training, breeding, or the different atmospheres at the races themselves? Or a mixture of both?
Again, thank you everyone for all of the information, including answering questions I didn’t even think to ask!:lol:
The profile on Senior Senator (Maryland Hunt Cup winner) that I read made him sound like he was very difficult in general even while a flat racehorse and that carried over into his pre-race behavior even over fences.
IH, I don’t know and a good question. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable folks that are actually closer to horses on the track than their TV have some thoughts?
Pretty consistently across the pond even when using a starting gate, lead ponies aren’t used often (unless for a US-based horse). Here, the European/UK horses seem to mostly forego the lead ponies.
QHs… my guess (but only a guess) is because they are such fast out of the gate sprinters (for the most part), they’re wound up before they even get to the gate.
Looking forward to other thoughts for sure!
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What Bug Boy says is spot-on with regards to UK vs. US jumpers - consistently quiet vs. not necessarily. And I’ve had 5 decades working with nearly 100% US tb’s, mostly that ran on the flat that mostly swapped to jumping (some to hurdles, some to both hurdles/timber) and 100% of mine were ‘sport horses’ during their jump racing careers – a little showing, a lot of foxhunting, hunter pace, some evented, etc. But it did not settle them from being somewhat excitable at the start (if they were, I mean.)
Zero of my chief jump trainer employer’s horses were sport horses during their jump careers (all were re-converted after they retired from racing) and, weirdly, 97% of his horses were Dobbin-quiet behind the flag (or tape!) He had some homebreds, some flat track converts, some NZ breds - they were all the same. Same management, I’d surmise. (Turned out in large groups in huge pastures 110% of the time, trained pretty hard 7 days a week, no flatwork per se).
It’s weird - I tried so hard with my own horses, and those I trained for others, to settle them with tons of hunting, tons of trails (galloping trails were my favorite type of training gallops), some flatwork, some showing, etc. but, frankly, thinking back, it never changed the individual’s base personality.
As Bug Boy says, it does seem to be a US-bred tb quirk. Not, ^^^, necessarily related to management. All the Maryland timber barns would do similar cross training, I expect, stuff you’d think would settle a horse right down!
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The fences used in the Grand National are unique to the National course at Aintree (the big outer loop, Aintree also has a “regular” circuit for normal hurdles and chases). They are used only in a couple of other races besides the GN, i.e the Foxhunters Chase and the Topham Chase. They are distinctly different from the “normal” chasing fences you see in GB and Ireland. They are made of freshly cut Spruce branches piled on a frame. You can get a feel for what they look like here… https://i2-prod.liverpoolecho.co.uk/incoming/article12771574.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Workmen-working-on-fence-10-on-the-world-famous-Grand-National-course-in-Aintree-racecourse-Picture.jpg
By the time the field of 40 horses has gone through the second circuit of the course the fences have usually been knocked asunder and there is spruce everywhere.
To clarify a bit of nomenclature and how it differs from place to place. As mentioned earlier, jump racing in GB and IRE is generally referred to as National Hunt racing. There are two main types of race, (well three if you include “Bumpers”, which are flat races at NH distances as introductory races for 4-5yos).
Hurdle - jumps are smaller, about 3’6" tall, the jumps are angled at a 45 degree angle and will collapse if hit hard enough. Hurlde races are generally over shorter distances. 2 to 2-1/4 miles is the “classic” distance in hurdling, that’s what the Champion hurdle is run over. There are less jumping efforts in a hurdle race, about 4 per mile, so a 2 mile hurdle will have about 8 jumping efforts. Hurdle races are generally run at a fast click. A horse doesn’t have to be a particularly good jumper (though if he is too careless he will come a cropper). There is a greater emphasis on speed.
Here is a picture of horse jumping a hurdle, as you see it’s flatter, faster, lower trajectory.
https://katewaltonracing.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/8-everaard-2.jpg
Here is a replay of the Champion Hurdle at Cheltenham, which is like the Breeders Cup Classic for hurdlers… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKRYzgxNxj8
Chase - jumps are bigger, about 4’6", and stiff, i.e non collapsible. They are mostly constructed of packed birch. While a horse can skim through the top few inches, they require a horse to be good jumper. There are more jumping efforts in a Chase, usually 6 per mile. Chases are run anywhere from 2 miles to 4 miles. The “Classic” distance is 3m to 3-1/4m. So not only are the races generally longer, the jumps are bigger and stiffer, and there are more jumping efforts per mile than a hurdler. So chasers have to be a good jumping horses. Some fences, called “Open Ditches” have a ditch on the approach side. Some courses will also have a “Water jump”, with the water on the landing side.
Here’s a replay of the Gold Cup at Cheltenham, the blue riband of Chases (while the Grand National at Aintree is better known world wide, the Gold Cup is the true pinnacle of chasing)… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhrUKlQIzTc
The fences used in most NSA sanctioned races in the US, often referred to as “Hurdles” stateside, and sometimes called “National fences” (not to be confused with the fences used in the Grand National at Aintree) are plastic and portable. They are bigger than a hurdle fence that you’d find on the other side of the Atlantic, but smaller and not as stiff as the chasing fences. They are kind of “tweener” fences. Here’s a picture of a National fence on the inner turf course at Saratoga… http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/14/15/12/3199640/5/920x920.jpg
Clear as mud?
Now if want to get really murky, then we can include French jump racing, which has it’s own take on fence types.
Many of the best jump races horses in the world these days tend to be French bred.
Here’s a replay of the Grande Steeplechase de Paris, with it’s odd course configuration and plethora of different fences (living Privet hedges, stone walls among others)… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xj94COnZwg
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Isn’t the Steeplethon in Virginia supposed to be like a French chase?
There is a fairly new category of 'chase called a Cross Country Chase in the UK. Would any of y’all know how that differs from the standard Cheltenham type chase? Is it an international category?
I seem to have gotten the impression that the Aintree Grand National is, to UK racing people, kind of a second rate race, especially compared to the Cheltenham Gold Cup. Isn’t the Aintree Grand National only a Group II race?
And then there is the Velka Pardubice which is a one off.
Many, if not most, of French chasers are not pure TB. There is now a special French studbook for part bred racers called AQPS (Other than Pure Blood), and most of them have Selle Francais as the part.
To answer my own question I found this on the Cheltenham site:
One race at the Festival is run over the cross country course.
The course takes racing at Cheltenham back to its roots with a selection of natural and man made obstacles incorporating banks, ditches, hedges, water and timber rails.
Designed by Mike Etherington-Smith, who was responsible for the 3-Day Event cross country course at the Sydney Olympics in 2000, the configuration of the course deliberately weaves around the centre of the course, with turns to the left and right leading competitors on a variety of routes and directions.
One of the main differences between the cross country course and the usual chase courses at Cheltenham is the materials used to build the fences. Chase fences are constructed from ‘dead’ materials whereas the fences on the cross country course are living, growing trees, shrubs and bushes, which are regularly trimmed for racing.
The race basically suits chasers, who jump and stay well.
Wikipedia says there are 32 obstacles in a 3 and 7/8ths mile race.
In an earlier thread on the COTH forums, someone shared this podcast, again on Senior Senator. It’s hilarious and heartwarming and really worth a listen:
https://thisishorseracing.com/news/i…-1st-podcast-3
A public post from Boyd Martin on FB about timber racing. I knew Jennie Brannigan had tried it but I didn’t know Boyd had given it a go!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=22245855992&set=a.20657975992.22964.578400992&type=3&theater
He said he’d got fined $250 for dangerous riding. Seems to have been back in 2007.
The Grand National is a Grade 3 race. It’s a Handicap and so can’t be a Grade 1.
It’s a famous race, and has a hefty purse, and every owner, trainer and jockey would love to win it. But it is not the true test of the top chasers. Many of the great chasers over the years never ran in the National.
It’s a bit of a novelty race in many respects… run at an unusual distance, over unusual fences, with an unusually large field of 40 runners. Plus it’s a Handicap, so the bottom weight is getting close to 30lbs from the top weight. It’s often won by a horse that nobody has heard of before, and never really hears of again.
The Gold Cup is the race that decides the top chaser. It’s weight for age, over the classic distance and over proper fences. No excuses.
Thanks for all this interesting info esp on the races in the UK. TVG does broadcast them in the morning before the US racing starts up. I see races but having some “clarity” in what is going on other than horses racing on grass with and without some type of jumps is great! 
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Such an interesting thread. I have been thinking about horse behaviour at the start. In Ireland and the UK horses are not expected to gallop flat out from the start. Each race course is different, there are turns and undulations and the weather will always influence the ground conditions. That is true for both flat and jump races. Jump races are also long and may take two or more circuits. Jockeys ride the course as well as their horse and will be looking for good grounď and a good line. I recall a top American horse at York come out of the stalls like a bullet and leave everyone standing but by half way the others cruised past it. So with less pressure for a quick jump start the horses are perhaps simply trained to be more relaxed. Also, if a horse consistently behaves badly in the stalls it is not allowed to run again until it is retrained and can demonstrate improved behaviour. Jump horses are often started by lining up and walking in to the starter who drops his flag as a signal to go. Direct walk to gallop transition! You may notice a person at the rear of the field cracking a whip as an additional encouragement.
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@Willesdon That’s very useful to know! It sounds like expectations have a great deal to do with behavior. I actually thought of this thread and the discussion of the different temperaments between UK and US racehorses when I saw this on Facebook:
Willesdon - Not arguing, but in the US, racehorses are not ‘expected to gallop flat out from the start’ unless it’s a qh dash, or perhaps a 6f in top company.
Walk up starts are actually – supposed to be – standing starts. in the US and UK, horses ‘enter the box,’ or line up, or whatever, turn to face the starter (positioned up the course a ways, and the recall starter, further up the course.) Then the idea is that everybody stands still, or nearly so, then the flag/s drop. Doesn’t always work that way, and indeed it seems UK horses quite literally stand flatfooted more often, but that’s the notion here, too. (In jump racing, I"m saying.)
Very often no one wants to ‘go to the lead’ at the start (US or UK) and you quite often have not only not a ‘galloping’ start, but many times the horses jog a few strides, sometimes even walk into it, until the starter literally yells at them to get going!
The whip thing used to be allowed in US jump racing, not any longer. No one can affect or help at the start - in the box - except the starter. You used to be able to have a pony take you in/lead you up, or a handler on the ground. I believe that continues to be the case (though it may be allowed in certain cases to help ease a young, or green, or difficult, horse into starting when he may otherwise freeze or balk.
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:eek: That could have been so, so bad. Thank gawd the horse looks so out of breath he’s glad to stop and the other jockey wasn’t injured so he could assist.
