Tips for riding lazy schoolies?

[Gamma]

I have a somewhat silly problem… Lazy horses reveal all the flaws in my riding. I am used to forward, maybe a little spooky or looky, maybe needs a little pulling down type horses. I actually do pretty well with these guys, I can usually convince very forward horses to go quietly in a light contact. I seem to have a pretty chilly seat (opposite of the “hot seat” thread)–I can stay on a buck or spook but I don’t have any driving force and my legs tend to stay light or off.

Then I go to a new barn and it’s just a mess. They (completely understandably) put me on old Mr. Fallsasleep. Walking is OK, Fallsasleep can at least recognize that I don’t believe him when he’s “sooooo tired, can’t move”. Trot, not the worst ever, at least Fallsasleep usually has a smooth trot–but sometimes devolves into what you might call a jog, and I’m definitely doing the “squeeze squeeze squeeze” nagging post, which I don’t really like.

Then we get to the canter. Or we don’t get to the canter, we get to a faster trot. Or maybe Fallsasleep picks up the canter easily enough, but then falls then back to the trot every few strides…sometimes in the middle of a line of jumps. Sometimes we get the ugly scene with the reins in one hand and the stick in the other. And at least some of it is my fault, because I do tend to drop contact when asking for a canter. And clearly, I am not good at the strong, unambiguous signals and driving seat that these guys need.

After watching me ride a few times, they need Fallsasleep for some timid beginner and move me to a more forward horse and I am back to a super light seat, which is one resolution to the problem but hasn’t really improved me as a rider. Clearly Fallsasleep is the Office Space of the horse world and won’t suddenly start being brilliant, but I know some riders can at least get a passable ride out of him. Any tips?

[RolyPolyPony]

Following - my favorite schoolie, who I hope to lease, is like this - maybe not QUITE as bad and there are some days where I can get him out of his laziness easily, but still. I’d like to make his and my life easier! I know part of it is that I’m not super-firm about my aids, but still.

[Scratch_N_Dent]

I find the problem with these types of schoolies is that you don’t really want to make them more sensitive; they are the reliable ones that can ignore kids or adults telling them to do things they really shouldn’t.

Now, some of these horses have had some great training in the past and will easily recognize a more advanced rider, and a few minutes of starting and stopping at the walk and trot before a lesson is enough to tune them up.

So…the answer really is to stay at one place where they can put you on an appropriate mount. The more you ride, the stronger you get and more refined your cues get, then the knowledgeable Fallsasleeps are much more rideable. The Fallsasleeps that don’t have great training but are just kind souls should be left to do the job they do best (unless you buy or lease them, then the re-training begins).

[ThegoodLife]

There is nothing more annoying than a horse who is disobedient to moving off of the leg. Not only is it dangerous (especially when jumping), but its an evasion of work.
When you ask the horse to go, you ask once. If you have to ask again, Mr.Horse gets a spanking, behind your leg. Every. Single. Time. Eventually, Horsie will realize that going forward is better than being spanked.

[OveroHunter]

It’s really up to your trainer. When my horse was laid up and I rode some of her schoolies, I would ride with spurs and a crop and they quickly realized I was an advanced rider and moved forward relatively well…

However, your trainer may not want you to do that. The best you can do if not is keep your gaits at the “working” pace. I would alternate squeezes with my calfs “left, right, left, right” to keep a marching pace even when walking. Hopefully they eventually get the idea that you mean business and this will be a working ride.

[caryledee]

Agree with the others, I used to teach at a lesson barn and we had a lot of these type of horses. They are smart, and a lot of them will start sizing you up the moment they see you coming. Start even as you are leading them, don’t let them drag behind, get the energy going forward right away. They really pick up on your energy with everything you do. The minute you get on, put your leg on and make them walk FORWARD. Keep this energy up for the duration of the lesson.

I agree with scratch n dent though; there are some schoolies that are just so good at being beginner horses that no amount of positive, forward riding is really going to change them. These horses should really be left to the less experienced; they have a different skill set and a valuable one for beginner riders. If your lesson barn continues to put you on this type of horse after they get to know your abilities, you should ask for a different horse. It is your money and if you are not getting out of your lesson what you want, you will only continue to feel frustration.

[Wonders12]

The problem is that this is more of a training issue than a riding issue. (Some people do struggle more riding “kick rides”, but the extreme you explain is beyond that.)

The way you train the horse to go forward is by negative reinforcement. Ask the horse to move off your left leg, as soon as he takes a step, leg comes off = reward. My horse can be resistant to forward, so the beginning of every ride starts with some basic lateral work. The same concept is applied to forward. My legs mean move forward off my leg NOW. No/not enough reaction is escalated with the spur and potentially the crop if needed. Once the horses is moving forward with attentiveness, aids relax = reward.

Leg, leg, leg nagging just makes them more dull. (Which I suspect you know.)

The problem: Not all trainers want you taking spurs and crops to their pokey lesson horse.

My recommended solution: Ask the trainer what they want.
“Hey Trainer, while I was leading around and tacking Pokey, I got the feeling he tends to be a bit lazy. If I were getting on him for a schooling ride, I would also put on some spurs to help me get him moving promptly off and respecting my leg. Is that the type of ride you’re looking for today or would you prefer I just work with what I have so he stays really forgiving for his next beginner lesson?”

And then same once you’re riding. “Wow, Pokey was really dead to my leg in that walk/trot transition. If he were my horse, I would school that transition several times with my crop until I get a more prompt reaction. But I understand if that’s not what you want from a school horse. How would you prefer I react to that transition?”

[comingback]

Definitely talk to your instructor about this, just so you know what is expected and acceptable in the program with that particular animal.

That being said, a dressage whip can work wonders. Ask for the transition and/or pace desired. If there is no response, demand it with the leg and follow up of the whip. Be sure you are not inadvertently clashing your aids by holding with your hands. Ask them to go forward, and then allow them to do so.

While I do wear spurs for a pokey horse, they really should be reserved for use in lateral movements, not to make it go forward. Chances are if they are dead to move forward, they probably aren’t excited to bend and move sideways either

[Ambitious_Kate]

I feel your frustration. I have come to my second lesson on what was apparently going to be one of these fallsasleep schoolies with spurs and my own crop. As thegoodlife said, instant response from me if he wasn’t responding.

I found it particularly frustraing, personally. I had wanted to work on subtle seat and leg cues in dressge and position and pacing over different large fences, and it was all I could do to keep the horse walking. A trot left me exhausted and pissed off, frankly. I did work on walk to trot to halt all on my own, just to try to get some rresponsiveness installed so I could continue with the lesson, and the halt was about all we could master. After four of these lessons which didn’t even approach what I had come there to work on, I moved on to a different barn.

[RedHorses]

The key is to get on the horse and find a reason to Kick His Ass in the first five minutes. Then Kick His Ass Hard!

What I have found is that if you “make nice” with Fallasleep for the first five to ten minutes, when you DO finally “get tough” he won’t believe you. After all you’ve already established that you don’t really want him to march, or trot forward, or canter more than a few lope steps.

But if you get on the horse and immediately insist on a marching walk WITH your whip backing up your leg right away - as in one leg aid for march on in walk, followed by a second leg and smack with the whip at a non or half hearted response. Fallasleep knows very well what is expected, this is not beating on a greenie who doesn’t understand, but rather making it clear from the get go that you will accept nothing less. He will be shocked, March forward a little bit and then check if you mean it by easing off the march. Leg and whip again - not leg, see if Fallasleep responds, then leg and whip when he doesn’t. Skip the leg and wait. It seems mean, but if you do the whole leg, wait, leg/whip thing every time he will make you use your leg to nag him forward. And if you make yourself be really mean for the first five to ten minutes then you will have to do far, far less nagging with leg and whip for the rest of your hour. As in maybe two or three widely separated reminder smacks.

If Fallasleep keeps dialing back on the effort there is a second step. Kick and tap into trot, and keep kicking and tapping with every step, pushing for more and more to the point of running fast trot for about half the arena, then ask for walk march. If the somewhat surprised Fallasleep dials back on the walk effort (and he will the first time, and likely at least the second time too) go straight back into the kicking forward, more with every stride trot halfway around the arena, then try the walk march again. Yes, the trot with be rushed, unbalanced and ugly but you are just looking for Fallasleep to maintain the pace on his own. Embrace the ugly while you make it abundantly clear that you expect HIM to maintain the pace without constant leg aids. You have better things to do with your legs. You can use this technique with the trot as well by pushing into the canter if the trot is lazy. Basically you are offering the low effort (march walk) alternative to the high effort (more, more, more trot).

This isn’t just my experience, many of my students have successfully used this technique. They worry about being mean, but what is meaner? Five minutes of “I insist” or 50 of nag, nag, nag, swat, nag… And it’s not like it’s a constant use of the whip because you give them a chance at responding to the nice request.

[RolyPolyPony]

[QUOTE=RedHorses;8288977]

This isn’t just my experience, many of my students have successfully used this technique. They worry about being mean, but what is meaner? Five minutes of “I insist” or 50 of nag, nag, nag, swat, nag… And it’s not like it’s a constant use of the whip because you give them a chance at responding to the nice request. ;)[/QUOTE]

I love this, RedHorses - thank you for the whole post! I am def going to try that.

[Jumper_girl221]

I have one of those fallsasleeps! She’s quite convinced forward is the devil. Friends that hop on her are astounded that she is able to canter with my advanced kids.

However, with her, you have to immediately demand obedience (like RedHorses says). You get on and play around and you’ll spend the rest of the ride trying to get a speed above a wp jog. I also have noticed with her that you get a much better canter transition doing a walk to canter, trotting she “cheats” and will trot you to death rather then pick up that canter.

We also spend the first few jumps of the warmup with a crop behind the leg at the base of the fence (she’s queen of the slow to a crawl and land trotting trick). Once she “knows” a person she is much more responsive (i.e. this was at a show a few weeks ago https://youtu.be/I1g2fPlaxzQ ), but she’s especially lazy with a new person until she gets her a$$ handed to her!

Even with working on her to be responsive and respectful, she will still step it down for a beginner w/t kid.

[SuzieQNutter]

Another thing to do is to work on your core muscles. The horse cannot ignore your seat. If you have a forward seat they go forward.

I used to work at a horse riding camp. All kids are put on horses and given exercises to do individually.

Soon the complaints start that the horse can’t do it.

I would dismount the kid with the slowest horse and the biggest complainer. Get on and do a walk canter transition. Do the exercise really fast and give them back the horse.

This energised all the kids in the group. Now that is the horse they all wanted to ride and the complaints stopped.

No I hadn’t ridden the horse prior.

[CHT]

My pokey lesson horses were all smart enough to pick up the energy when the rider picked up the crop. No hitting needed, other than maybe smacking your leg/boot to make a good sound. A rider that kept them busy (lots of transitions/circles and so on) would also get a more responsive horse over one that did endless ovals.

But…they were also smart enough to kind of “feel” if the rider was unbalanced/beginner…so if you were pinching with your knees or ahead of the motion, they would stay a but slower/smoother, likely to protect themselves. Are you perhaps guilty of either of these things?

I agree that this is something you need to discuss with the barn/coach.

[betsyk]

I’d also look at WHAT you’re asking him to do, not just HOW you’re asking him to do it. Do you start with transitions? some laps at the canter? how stiff is he? is it a question of a proper warmup being necessary to get the joints moving before he even can go forward? How many lessons has he done that day before yours?

I teach on school horses who are prized for their laid-back attitude, and I know their tricks for getting them forward with a rider who can handle a little more go. Transitions within and between gaits, the occasional quick halt-and-back, some lateral work - get horsey’s brain engaged, and his body should follow. Most of the time, strength and nagging are counter productive. Make him want to be light to your leg!

[findeight]

[QUOTE=ThegoodLife;8288878]
There is nothing more annoying than a horse who is disobedient to moving off of the leg. Not only is it dangerous (especially when jumping), but its an evasion of work.
When you ask the horse to go, you ask once. If you have to ask again, Mr.Horse gets a spanking, behind your leg. Every. Single. Time. Eventually, Horsie will realize that going forward is better than being spanked.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but this is not OPs horse and trainers living depends on it to tolerate mistakes, not crisply and immediately respond to all aids whether applied correctly or in conflict with other aids. That tends to get students run off with, bucked off or spun off in a corner, which is essentially what they asked for by p*ssing off the horse with misapplied or conflicting aids.

The answer is working with trainer to become stronger and, IMO, a horse like this us exactly what you need, you either are going to ask correctly or nothing will happen other then he won’t get you hurt. If others can get him going? It’s you.

Talk to trainer about becoming stronger. Might want to hit the gym for core and leg strength, more hours in the saddle too.

If it’s any consolation, it’s harder to cool a hot seat then heat up a chilly one. A quiet, subtle ride many horses really respond to is more attainable if you start that way, it’s instinctive, not learned. Although you may never love a dull kick along type, you may shine on one with more " blood" those who light them up would hate. But you still need to get stronger.

[Chall]

im begining to hate the words “lazy horse”.
Sure there are some, but I think it reflects a lack of understanding on the part of the speaker.

There are clever horses, sneaky horses, horses in pain, sick horses, tired horses, demanding, exacting horses, weak riders, poor riders etc.

If your horse “is lazy” and makes you work harder, he’s pretty smart.
So it’s really “the horse I ride is smart” the challenge is can I become smarter?

[MtnDrmz]

Lazy Horses absolutely do show any holes in a rider’s base. I see riders all the time that have been jumping around full courses, seemingly having an easy way of going, until you actually ask them to ride or put them on anything that takes a bit more of an effort. That’s what lazy horses do; They make you ride. Sleepy horses are great teachers not only because they wont try to kill you, but also because they teach you how to actually use your aides and have to do something about what is going on underneath you. If you never have to squeeze, if you never have to actaully hit the specific spot on their bellies, if you are just “pulling them down” (this is kinda an issue too), then you have only developed a very small amount of skills, mostly just good balance on top of a moving object.

Good for you for looking to improve on this and I agree with Findeight, this is the horse you should be ridig, or one similar, if you actually want to develop your riding skills. The frustratng ones are the ones that teach you things, although they may hurt your ego in the process, but thats not always a bad thing :yes:

[findeight]

This made me remember one of my trainers when I first started in Hunt Seat after 20+ years in Western where it’s all about sitting chilly. And coming off an 8 year break from riding.

I could not get my regular assigned lesson horse to go faster then a turtle crossing the road on a hot day. He was exhausting, to put it mildly. I got frustrated with it and asked the trainer if he needed spurs and a stick. Trainer says “Yes, he does. But you don’t get them, nobody smacks and sticks one of my horses because they aren’t strong or smart enough to get the job done without weapons”.

Unusual way to put it but she was right. That horse got me stronger quicker then swinging a stick would have. And I earned the right to wear spurs, even got to carry a dressage whip to make things easier…funny thing, by the time I earned that, I rarely needed it.

[Khadiiyo]

I’ve had a couple of amazing beginner horses who were worth their weight in gold because they would never spook, never overreact and walk/trot all day if asked. My “test” WTC horse was also pretty quiet and would tolerate a learning rider’s mistakes. If I put you on those horses, there was a reason–either a new student who I needed to assess or one that was moving up the ranks. You say this is a new barn, so maybe there are holes in your riding that your previous barn didn’t address. I’ve had new students complain about the laziness of a horse, but the student was unable to keep their hands still while posting or always unconsciously choked up on the reins when asking for the canter. In those cases it isn’t the horse’s fault for slowing down. Have a frank conversation with your current trainer and ask if there are things YOU are doing that are inhibiting your horse. Or post a video to this forum and ask for an honest assessment of your riding–you’ll get it.