TMJ pain/symptoms

[AMT7180]

Looking to connect with members who have had horses with TMJ pain. Do any of the below symptoms fit the bill for TMJ pain?

-head tossing/shaking/pulling reins out of rider’s hands; initially worse to the right, now happening both directions
-initially was lunging fine and then started to refuse to lunge to the right (have had the same results in balancing reins, fully tacked, bridle but no saddle, and halter)
-seems to be “running” from pain now when lunging to the right, even when just asked to walk
-vets have confirmed he is not lame; had back/neck soreness and treated with robaxin; neck on the left side still tender
-can successfully do carrot stretches though a little stiffer to the right
-dentist appt moved up a month early; teeth were a bit sharp on the right side
-noticed he stuck his tongue out on the right side today when walking to the left on lunge
-traditionally always stiffer to the right than left

Note that I’ve already had the vet tell me he has some arthritis in the right TMJ and he is reactive to touch. However, there are other issues (eg, Lymes) that we are treating so I have not yet looked into injecting the TMJ.

The absolute first time I ever saw this horse shake his head under saddle was at the end of May. I am pregnant and was looking for leasers. I rode him for 20 minutes, and then had the potential leaser get on. I tend to ride very gently and take my time getting the horse on the bit. Within a minute of walking to the right, the horse shook his head like a bug had flown in his ear or up his nose. I really didn’t think much of it other than it was odd and the shaking went away when he went to work. That said, he was a bit tense during this ride but I attributed it to the person having not ridden much in recent years and also just being a bit more assertive in her riding than what he was used to with me. This person ended up leasing him June/July and was in a regular lesson program with my trainer. I saw a video of one of his rides, and while he looked good he again looked a bit tense (only found this via facebook stalking). I was there for one of her rides mid June and it really did not go well. He refused to go forward to the left on a circle a few times and looked very agitated, and got himself worked up. This person is no longer leasing him. I am wondering if she really did some permanent physical and emotional damage to my horse. This was of course not intentional but my gut tells me there was just something in the way that she rode that was not right for him (likely because a TMJ issue was starting to develop). Has anyone had similar experiences?

I just ordered a hat/cap from Back on Track that is supposed to help with TMJ joint and nerve pain. Fingers crossed that it brings some relief and maybe this is an acute not chronic issue.

[pony_baloney]

Can’t help you, but can recommend a video that shows a simple technique to release the TMJ joint. Your horse will release it on his own, then you can see if there’s any improvement from just that alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmPvt43fTtg

[caryledee]

My horse is a headshaker and a couple of years ago he did something to his TMJ. When I rode him that day his headshaking was much more violent and I could not put any pressure on the right rein. It was very obvious something was wrong and I immediately got off. My vet was coming out anyway that night and took a look at him. He palpated that spot right above the right eye and the horse was in obvious discomfort. He did some acupuncture and had me use surpass for a week in that area. I haven’t had another issue that bad but when I got him adjusted my chiropractor told me it is pretty common for them to have TMJ issues and diagonal pelvic/hind leg issues, which he does.

Honestly your horse sounds like my other guy who has neck arthritis. He has really good days but there are days he refuses to go left or just looks very uncomfortable when he does. Sometimes he holds his head high and sometimes tilts his head. The x-rays revealed arthritis and a bone spur which is worse on the left side. It took a lot of diagnostic work (and several vets) to figure out the issue. My vet was pretty sure upon palpation but x-rays told the whole story.

[TWH_Girl]

[QUOTE=AMT7180;8824593]
Looking to connect with members who have had horses with TMJ pain. Do any of the below symptoms fit the bill for TMJ pain?

-head tossing/shaking/pulling reins out of rider’s hands; initially worse to the right, now happening both directions
-initially was lunging fine and then started to refuse to lunge to the right (have had the same results in balancing reins, fully tacked, bridle but no saddle, and halter)
-seems to be “running” from pain now when lunging to the right, even when just asked to walk
-vets have confirmed he is not lame; had back/neck soreness and treated with robaxin; neck on the left side still tender
-can successfully do carrot stretches though a little stiffer to the right
-dentist appt moved up a month early; teeth were a bit sharp on the right side
-noticed he stuck his tongue out on the right side today when walking to the left on lunge
-traditionally always stiffer to the right than left

Note that I’ve already had the vet tell me he has some arthritis in the right TMJ and he is reactive to touch. However, there are other issues (eg, Lymes) that we are treating so I have not yet looked into injecting the TMJ.

The absolute first time I ever saw this horse shake his head under saddle was at the end of May. I am pregnant and was looking for leasers. I rode him for 20 minutes, and then had the potential leaser get on. I tend to ride very gently and take my time getting the horse on the bit. Within a minute of walking to the right, the horse shook his head like a bug had flown in his ear or up his nose. I really didn’t think much of it other than it was odd and the shaking went away when he went to work. That said, he was a bit tense during this ride but I attributed it to the person having not ridden much in recent years and also just being a bit more assertive in her riding than what he was used to with me. This person ended up leasing him June/July and was in a regular lesson program with my trainer. I saw a video of one of his rides, and while he looked good he again looked a bit tense (only found this via facebook stalking). I was there for one of her rides mid June and it really did not go well. He refused to go forward to the left on a circle a few times and looked very agitated, and got himself worked up. This person is no longer leasing him. I am wondering if she really did some permanent physical and emotional damage to my horse. This was of course not intentional but my gut tells me there was just something in the way that she rode that was not right for him (likely because a TMJ issue was starting to develop). Has anyone had similar experiences?

I just ordered a hat/cap from Back on Track that is supposed to help with TMJ joint and nerve pain. Fingers crossed that it brings some relief and maybe this is an acute not chronic issue.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the tip on the BOT hat. I just ordered it from Adams- also 20% off this weekend. My guy’s always had head tossing issues and is very tight in neck and poll.

[Lady_Eboshi]

In 45 years I have never, EVER heard any vet or even equine dentist suggest or mention that a horse had/might have/could have “TMJ.” Bum teeth, sore bars, wrong bit, crappy riding, cervical arthrits, neuro problems, or headshaker, yes, but not “TMJ.”

I smell a rat here . . . some “practitioner” of woo “diagnosing” something that conveniently no one else can prove exists. Or disprove. How conveeenient! :rolleyes:

Get a real vet. Please.

[Rosie10]

Has horses mouth been checked for wolf teeth?

My mare had a CT scan of her teeth which showed up a TMJ problem. This is what was said and thats all I know about it.

" A CT scan of the head from the base of the ears caudally to the mid maxillary 06. There are two minor movement blurs but the scan is diagnostic. The middle ear, hyoid apparatus and temporohyoid articulation are all normal. Within the medial aspect of the left mandibular condyle there is a large cyst-like lesion surrounded by sclerosis and in the right mandibular
condyle there is a surface erosion of the joint surface towards the lateral aspect. "

That was in Dec 2015. She had the TM joints injected in December and again in April, both times with a mild steroid because shes a laminitis risk. As far as I can tell its made absolutely no difference to her, except both times she started quidding worse three weeks after the joints were injected and the first time she also had a soft swelling come up under her jaw for 24hrs. The CT was actually to look for a tooth problem, it showed nothing and was a total waste of money, so don’t bother wasting yours. They can X-Ray and ultrasound the TM joints but CT is the best for diagnosing TMJ stuff apparently. She is only a 6yr old so not ridden but has a history of teeth problems - diastema, peripheral caries, impacted caps. She has also had feet problems which are now much better with a very good farrier working on her feet. She has never had any problems turning her head to scratch her back or rump either way. Can turn neck to shoulder with no problems. Had some physio in April just after the TM joints were injected the second time and had no neck stifness but sore shoulder, back and hind quarter muscles, physio said she was like a horse that had been ridden in a badly fitting saddle for years, dont know if thats from feet, teeth or TMJ!
Symptoms which haven’t gone with TMJ injections: quidding (which she wasn’t actually doing at time of CT), leaning her left eye or left side of face against door post sometimes, lying with head against wall sometimes, lying with jaw crossed, lying holding shavings in her mouth or tongue between her teeth or biting the floor while lay down. Also cant pick up her left hind leg anymore unless shes sedated, vet cant see any obvious reason why not, shes not lame. She does canter around the field with her head turned out. Very spooky temperament. Did go through a phase of head tossing in 2014 for few months after dental work but not seen any since.
No vet suggested she might have a TMJ problem before the scan.

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8828423]
In 45 years I have never, EVER heard any vet suggest or mention that a horse had/might have/could have “TMJ.” Bum teeth, sore bars, wrong bit, crappy riding, cervical arthrits, neuro problems, or headshaker, yes, but not “TMJ.”

I smell a rat here . . . some “practitioner” of woo “diagnosing” something that conveniently no one else can prove exists. Or disprove. How conveeenient! :rolleyes:

Get a real vet. Please.[/QUOTE]

I have a real Vet in fact 2…and we ultraSounded one of my horses for TMJ issues…and we then followed up,with injecting them…Made a world of difference . My horse is certainly not the first horse I or they have done this procedure on…Its known documented and treatable…Not voodoo no rats…

[Dutchmare433]

I’ve had a little bit of TMJ experience with my horses and more than I would like with myself.

Symptoms for horses can range from teeth grinding, tongue out, mouth open, not wanting to go forward, I never had head shaking, but my one horse did go with her head twisted up and right briefly before we got into what was going on with her. TMJ can also get worse after dental work bc of the speculum and holding their mouth open for a long time. (This is also true in people, ouch.)

My mare’s TMJ resolved itself with a little bit of massage and trigger point, but also several visits from the dentist. We did probably 6 remedial floatings over the course of 8-9 months. Which was a pain, mostly for my wallet. But it got her teeth back to normal and only needing to be done every 6 months. Once all the remedial floating was done, the TMJ pain seemed to be gone. (Not sensitive to touch in that area, no head twisting, no mouth open etc.)

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Rosie10;8828691]
Has horses mouth been checked for wolf teeth?

My mare had a CT scan of her teeth which showed up a TMJ problem. This is what was said and thats all I know about it.

" A CT scan of the head from the base of the ears caudally to the mid maxillary 06. There are two minor movement blurs but the scan is diagnostic. The middle ear, hyoid apparatus and temporohyoid articulation are all normal. Within the medial aspect of the left mandibular condyle there is a large cyst-like lesion surrounded by sclerosis and in the right mandibular
condyle there is a surface erosion of the joint surface towards the lateral aspect. "

That was in Dec 2015. She had the TM joints injected in December and again in April, both times with a mild steroid because shes a laminitis risk. As far as I can tell its made absolutely no difference to her, except both times she started quidding worse three weeks after the joints were injected and the first time she also had a soft swelling come up under her jaw for 24hrs. The CT was actually to look for a tooth problem, it showed nothing and was a total waste of money, so don’t bother wasting yours. They can X-Ray and ultrasound the TM joints but CT is the best for diagnosing TMJ stuff apparently. She is only a 6yr old so not ridden but has a history of teeth problems - diastema, peripheral caries, impacted caps. She has also had feet problems which are now much better with a very good farrier working on her feet. She has never had any problems turning her head to scratch her back or rump either way. Can turn neck to shoulder with no problems. Had some physio in April just after the TM joints were injected the second time and had no neck stifness but sore shoulder, back and hind quarter muscles, physio said she was like a horse that had been ridden in a badly fitting saddle for years, dont know if thats from feet, teeth or TMJ!
Symptoms which haven’t gone with TMJ injections: quidding (which she wasn’t actually doing at time of CT), leaning her left eye or left side of face against door post sometimes, lying with head against wall sometimes, lying with jaw crossed, lying holding shavings in her mouth or tongue between her teeth or biting the floor while lay down. Also cant pick up her left hind leg anymore unless shes sedated, vet cant see any obvious reason why not, shes not lame. She does canter around the field with her head turned out. Very spooky temperament. Did go through a phase of head tossing in 2014 for few months after dental work but not seen any since.
No vet suggested she might have a TMJ problem before the scan.[/QUOTE]

I don’t see anything on your quotation of the scan results that says “TMJ.”
Given the size and strength of the muscles involved in the horse’s grinding-motion jaw, it’s pretty darned unlikely (short of being practically hung by the bridle) that that’s your problem. “TMJ” preventing the lifting of any leg lacks all biological plausibility.

Caps just come off; never heard of “impacted.” If that was a thing, the dentist would just flick them off. They should be long gone by age 6 anyway. “Caries,” aka “cavities,” are something I’ve NEVER heard of in equines and I’ve got a DVM horse dentist. I think you’ve got some “practitioners” doing a job on you, and unfortunately, on your horse.

Quidding, head pressing, hind leg abnormality etc. sound to me like a cerebral neurological deficit. Hope to heaven you’re not riding this horse! I’d be getting her to a university veterinary teaching hospital to find out what’s REALLY going on. NONE of this is normal in a young animal, and “physio” ain’t gonna cut it!

Best of luck.

[Rosie10]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8829316]
I don’t see anything on your quotation of the scan results that says “TMJ.”
Given the size and strength of the muscles involved in the horse’s grinding-motion jaw, it’s pretty darned unlikely (short of being practically hung by the bridle) that that’s your problem.

Caps come off; never heard of “impacted.” If that was a thing, the dentist would just flick them off. They should be long gone by age 6 anyway. “Caries,” aka “cavities,” are something I’ve NEVER heard of in equines and I’ve got a DVM horse dentist. I think you’ve got some “practitioners” doing a job on you, and unfortunately, on your horse.

Quidding, head pressing, hind leg abnormality etc. sound to me like a cerebral neurological deficit. Hope to heaven you’re not riding this horse! I’d be getting her to a university veterinary teaching hospital to find out what’s REALLY going on. NONE of this is normal in a young animal, and “physio” ain’t gonna cut it!

Best of luck.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I think the condoyles are part of the TM joint. Copied this off this website: https://www.equinecraniosacral.com/articles/article2.html

   "The TMJ Mechanism is more than just bone matter. Muscles, ligaments, and tendons surround the synovial joints (one on each side of the head) formed between the condyles of the mandible and the temporal bone. These bones connect in a capsulated joint where an articular disc allows for a gliding movement of the condyle. The mandible articulates and communicates with the temporal bone in this very strong, tight synovial joint capsule. It is supported and reinforced by ligaments and is then supported by the muscles that coordinate movement of the mandible for proper mastication. Any tightness in the muscles, tendons or ligaments of the TMJ Mechanism will inhibit the function of the TMJ. In the event of these muscles tightening and shortening, the body then negatively compensates for the imbalance. The proper function of the TMJ Mechanism therefore plays an important role in the whole function of the horse, including leads, gaits, balance and equilibrium."

My mare had X-rays as a three year old that showed her lower third adult teeth were trying to erupt into her second adult teeth on both sides of her jaw so the caps were removed (which took an hour and a half), apparently they were impacted and wouldn’t of come away on there own. All her caps had gone by the time she was three and a half. She has peripheral caries which are along the edges of her teeth, different to caries which are on the surface. The top teeth can get infundibular caries which she also has but they are shallow ones according to CT results, CT was done at a University. As a four year old she saw a specialist three times due to her teeth being wrong angle or something, but it was only her lower teeth that were wrong angle.
Heres a video of the inside of her mouth taken same day as CT. The gaps between lower teeth are diastema, you can see the caries along the edges of her teeth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2T4ymCwkVo

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Rosie10;8829514]
Thanks. I think the condoyles are part of the TM joint. Copied this off this website: https://www.equinecraniosacral.com/articles/article2.html

   "The TMJ Mechanism is more than just bone matter. Muscles, ligaments, and tendons surround the synovial joints (one on each side of the head) formed between the condyles of the mandible and the temporal bone. These bones connect in a capsulated joint where an articular disc allows for a gliding movement of the condyle. The mandible articulates and communicates with the temporal bone in this very strong, tight synovial joint capsule. It is supported and reinforced by ligaments and is then supported by the muscles that coordinate movement of the mandible for proper mastication. Any tightness in the muscles, tendons or ligaments of the TMJ Mechanism will inhibit the function of the TMJ. In the event of these muscles tightening and shortening, the body then negatively compensates for the imbalance. The proper function of the TMJ Mechanism therefore plays an important role in the whole function of the horse, including leads, gaits, balance and equilibrium."

My mare had X-rays as a three year old that showed her lower third adult teeth were trying to erupt into her second adult teeth on both sides of her jaw so the caps were removed (which took an hour and a half), apparently they were impacted and wouldn’t of come away on there own. All her caps had gone by the time she was three and a half. She has peripheral caries which are along the edges of her teeth, different to caries which are on the surface. The top teeth can get infundibular caries which she also has but they are shallow ones according to CT results, CT was done at a University. As a four year old she saw a specialist three times due to her teeth being wrong angle or something, but it was only her lower teeth that were wrong angle.
Heres a video of the inside of her mouth taken same day as CT. The gaps between lower teeth are diastema, you can see the caries along the edges of her teeth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2T4ymCwkVo[/QUOTE]

In a normal young horse I have NEVER known caps to be a problem. If they’re still there when you begin bitting, they’re flicked off. Wolf teeth should ALWAYS be removed if present at first bitting for the same reason–manage the obvious before it can cause discomfort. And neither would cause anything remotely like the severe symptoms you describe. Retained caps might cause a loss of weight.

What some posters above are having “injected” as “TMJ,” sounds to me like “Rein-Lame, Class A.” Get the hell off the critter’s mouth with your hands!
(Otherwise, how would such arise?) BTW, there is no biologically plausible explanation how “TMJ” would prevent a horse from picking up a hind leg.

I’ve never heard of teeth at a “wrong angle” that couldn’t be corrected by a light floating. “Wrong angle” for what, exactly? If the surfaces were not able to meet, the horse could not chew forage and would die of starvation short of extreme human intervention. Someone for sure would have noticed that by weaning time! If this mare actually has a DEFORMED JAW, please in the name of all that’s horsemanship DO NOT EVER BREED HER.

'Fraid you outed yourself by quoting from an “equine cranio sacral” site. So sorry, but “Cranio-Sacral” therapy, in man or beast, has been proven repeatedly by RCT’s to be 100% null, debunked theory to the extent that anyone claiming it today is practicing medicine without a license. Stuff like this is precisely WHY the vets went after the uncertified “hand-floaters” a number of years ago. This Maureen Rogers person is not a DVM, is not qualified to Dx neurological problems, etc. yet she purports to be Dx’ing and treating equine musculoskeletal lesions. DANGER. Writing it up on a spiffy web site so as to BS the “spa” accultured ammie does not make it a real “thing.” Ditto for reiki, aromatherapy, and crystal-hanging. NONE of that will cure early-stage EPM.

IMPORTANT: Please read this, lurkers!!

If your horse of any age is exhibiting the kinds of problems described in this thread, s/he may be severely neurologically compromised in ways that seriously endanger riders, handlers, etc. DO NOT rely on “alt-universe” practitioners to diagnose this stuff. Most of their “Dx” definitions have no evidence of existence in known, recognized biology. No one outside their belief system can prove or disprove their existence, and they will take your money FOREVER “doing” irrelevant nonsense while you waste valuable time the horse may not have if what you’re REALLY dealing with is something like EPM, PSSM, melanoma, West Nile, or cervical stenosis.

In this case, the WRONG Dx can get you KILLED. Having handled any number of end-stage neuro horses over the years, I’m deadly serious about this. There is almost nothing equine that is more dangerous. A DVM may not give you the answer you’re comfortable hearing if you’re coming from “holistic” land, but it’ll be the one you NEED to hear before there’s a disaster.

All “healers” are not created equal. DVM’s work from scientific proof and a comprehensive knowledge of anatomy and physiology. The rest are operating on faith in a belief system for which no empirical evidence exists, and a sales pitch that appeals to the inadequately informed. Use your checkbook wisely, as your horse’s life may depend on the choice you make.

[tazycat]

Sometimes it’s as simple as a training issue… Or needs teeth floated. Really TMJ must be a new way for vets chiros to make money. I’v had horses for years never had chiro work on any of them. Their sound happy no issues under saddle.

Whether they have pain or not,i won’t tolerate misbehaviour under saddle,same for on the ground handling…don’t care if they hurt they darn well better behave.

Every time a horse does anything not quite right must be this or that,so call vet to have a diagnosis for this or that. Maybe you need to look hard at the training or lack there of.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=tazycat;8829984]
Sometimes it’s as simple as a training issue… Or needs teeth floated. Really TMJ must be a new way for vets chiros to make money. I’v had horses for years never had chiro work on any of them. Their sound happy no issues under saddle.

Whether they have pain or not,i won’t tolerate misbehaviour under saddle,same for on the ground handling…don’t care if they hurt they darn well better behave.

Every time a horse does anything not quite right must be this or that,so call vet to have a diagnosis for this or that. Maybe you need to look hard at the training or lack there of.[/QUOTE]

THIS^! You win the Internets for today!!!

Years ago, we had a saying we repeated constantly: “IT’S ALWAYS THE RIDER, NEVER THE HORSE!” And about 96% of the time it was absolutely true. Before attributing minor disobediences and one-sidedness to obscure pseudo-medical causes, a couple of riding lessons with an astute trainer can go a long way toward solving problems AFTER your vet has conducted the standard soundness, dental and neurological exams and cleared the horse.

Vets today are too polite to say someone sits like a sack full of cement blocks or is hanging on to the mouth for dear life, rigid from the shoulders down.
They’ll just quietly inject the hocks or whatever and go off muttering. Trainers WILL tell you the truth about how your riding may be making your horse sore enough to be unwilling to perform.

[Rosie10]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8829946]
In a normal young horse I have NEVER known caps to be a problem. If they’re still there when you begin bitting, they’re flicked off. Wolf teeth should ALWAYS be removed if present at first bitting for the same reason–manage the obvious before it can cause discomfort. And neither would cause anything remotely like the severe symptoms you describe. Retained caps might cause a loss of weight.

What some posters above are having “injected” as “TMJ,” sounds to me like “Rein-Lame, Class A.” Get the hell off the critter’s mouth with your hands!
(Otherwise, how would such arise?) BTW, there is no biologically plausible explanation how “TMJ” would prevent a horse from picking up a hind leg.

I’ve never heard of teeth at a “wrong angle” that couldn’t be corrected by a light floating. “Wrong angle” for what, exactly? If the surfaces were not able to meet, the horse could not chew forage and would die of starvation short of extreme human intervention. Someone for sure would have noticed that by weaning time! If this mare actually has a DEFORMED JAW, please in the name of all that’s horsemanship DO NOT EVER BREED HER.

'Fraid you outed yourself by quoting from an “equine cranio sacral” site. So sorry, but “Cranio-Sacral” therapy, in man or beast, has been proven repeatedly by RCT’s to be 100% null, debunked theory to the extent that anyone claiming it today is practicing medicine without a license. Stuff like this is precisely WHY the vets went after the uncertified “hand-floaters” a number of years ago. This Maureen Rogers person is not a DVM, is not qualified to Dx neurological problems, etc. yet she purports to be Dx’ing and treating equine musculoskeletal lesions. DANGER. Writing it up on a spiffy web site so as to BS the “spa” accultured ammie does not make it a real “thing.” Ditto for reiki, aromatherapy, and crystal-hanging. NONE of that will cure early-stage EPM.

IMPORTANT: Please read this, lurkers!!

If your horse of any age is exhibiting the kinds of problems described in this thread, s/he may be severely neurologically compromised in ways that seriously endanger riders, handlers, etc. DO NOT rely on “alt-universe” practitioners to diagnose this stuff. Most of their “Dx” definitions have no evidence of existence in known, recognized biology. No one outside their belief system can prove or disprove their existence, and they will take your money FOREVER “doing” irrelevant nonsense while you waste valuable time the horse may not have if what you’re REALLY dealing with is something like EPM, PSSM, melanoma, West Nile, or cervical stenosis.

In this case, the WRONG Dx can get you KILLED. Having handled any number of end-stage neuro horses over the years, I’m deadly serious about this. There is almost nothing equine that is more dangerous. A DVM may not give you the answer you’re comfortable hearing if you’re coming from “holistic” land, but it’ll be the one you NEED to hear before there’s a disaster.

All “healers” are not created equal. DVM’s work from scientific proof and a comprehensive knowledge of anatomy and physiology. The rest are operating on faith in a belief system for which no empirical evidence exists, and a sales pitch that appeals to the inadequately informed. Use your checkbook wisely, as your horse’s life may depend on the choice you make.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say my mares problem lifting her hind leg was connected to her TMJ problem, I just said it didn’t improve after her TMJ were injected the second time, the first time the TMJ were injected she could pick her left hind up. The vet said shes not Neuro and that it might be worth x-raying her hocks but he said since shes not lame and only six and unbroken that I should just get on and back her and ride her. Not sure I want to ride a horse that can’t pick its left hind leg up and has head or mouth pain, until shes pain free she can be a pet, and no she does not have a deformed jaw but I wont be breeding from her anyway because she is too precious to me.
My mare is not a normal young horse, she has had teeth problems since 17 months old, and teeth trying to erupt on an angle into the tooth next to it while under the gumline would not have pushed a cap off in a normal way which is why they were removed then.
My mare does not head press, this has been established by vets that she is pressing her eye and around it. She also gets small swellings on the left side of her face which disappear after a day or two. The CT showed no problems other than the mandible condoyles which when I googled where they are that link I put on my previous post gave the best explanation. In the teeth video you can also see her 211 tooth is covered in caries leisions, this tooth is close to her left eye.
My horse saw a dental vet specialist three times in 2014 who said her teeth were the wrong shape and she could not grind them together hence why she had quid for so long and so badly, her referring vet had not noticed this and later explained her teeth were the wrong occlusal (sp) angle. Another specialist suggested it was shear mouth which again is teeth the wrong occlusal angle caused by the way a horse is chewing. You are quite right that they can not eat properly when there teeth are the wrong angle. My mare struggled to eat hay for two years and I was told it was normal for her to quid with diastema. She was not thin.
I’m in Uk, we don’t have the same horrible Neuro diseases like you have in US.

[csaper58]

Due to the order of eruption of the permanent cheek teeth, P4 can become impacted between P3 and M1. The deciduous cap for P4 can also be trapped between P3 and M1.

P4 is the third cheek tooth.

This page has an illustration that shows the mandibular nerve and it’s proximity to the TMJ. It is quite possibly for bone spurs/arthritis to irritate the nerve.

www.horsehints.org/Yawning.htm

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8828423]
In 45 years I have never, EVER heard any vet or even equine dentist suggest or mention that a horse had/might have/could have “TMJ.” Bum teeth, sore bars, wrong bit, crappy riding, cervical arthrits, neuro problems, or headshaker, yes, but not “TMJ.”

I smell a rat here . . . some “practitioner” of woo “diagnosing” something that conveniently no one else can prove exists. Or disprove. How conveeenient! :rolleyes:

Get a real vet. Please.[/QUOTE]

The best surgeon I’ve ever known–gone too soon due to ALS; treated one horse for TMJ issues when I was an intern. It was the one area lighted up on a bone scan. Injected with steroids and she was a different horse.

I’m AVCA certified and do routinely find tenderness in the TMJ region, though few of them are “acting out”

If people can get TMJ issues–then why not horses. They spend way more time chewing than we do. My osteopath sometimes has to adjust mine after I’ve had a filling done.

[TWH_Girl]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;8828927]
I have a real Vet in fact 2…and we ultraSounded one of my horses for TMJ issues…and we then followed up,with injecting them…Made a world of difference . My horse is certainly not the first horse I or they have done this procedure on…Its known documented and treatable…Not voodoo no rats…[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Don’t see why this wouldn’t be an issue with horses too. I find this place credible-
http://www.atlantaequine.com/pages/client_lib_tmj.html

[AMT7180]

No need to be rude. The horse has been seen by 2 vets, 1 vet/chiropractor, and an equine dentist. I myself can touch his right TMJ gently and elicit a response. It is clearly part of the issue.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8828423]
In 45 years I have never, EVER heard any vet or even equine dentist suggest or mention that a horse had/might have/could have “TMJ.” Bum teeth, sore bars, wrong bit, crappy riding, cervical arthrits, neuro problems, or headshaker, yes, but not “TMJ.”

I smell a rat here . . . some “practitioner” of woo “diagnosing” something that conveniently no one else can prove exists. Or disprove. How conveeenient! :rolleyes:

Get a real vet. Please.[/QUOTE]

[AMT7180]

There is no need to be rude. The horse has been seen by 2 vets, 1 vet/chiro, and 1 equine dentist so far. I am trying to get to the bottom of it. I myself can gently touch/palpate his right TMJ and illicit a response. It’s clearly part of the issue. I am hoping that by treating the Lymes his TMJ becomes less painful. As in people Lymes can impact joints that are already sore/inflamed more than others. Follow up appointment is scheduled for later in September when he is almost done with Lymes treatment.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8828423]
In 45 years I have never, EVER heard any vet or even equine dentist suggest or mention that a horse had/might have/could have “TMJ.” Bum teeth, sore bars, wrong bit, crappy riding, cervical arthrits, neuro problems, or headshaker, yes, but not “TMJ.”

I smell a rat here . . . some “practitioner” of woo “diagnosing” something that conveniently no one else can prove exists. Or disprove. How conveeenient! :rolleyes:

Get a real vet. Please.[/QUOTE]

[AMT7180]

As I mentioned, the 1 vet noted that this could be a rider issue. As I mentioned this person is no longer leasing the horse. She was lessoning with my trainer once/week. I believe there were multiple issues going on at once that are still sorting themselves out.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8829991]
THIS^! You win the Internets for today!!!

Years ago, we had a saying we repeated constantly: “IT’S ALWAYS THE RIDER, NEVER THE HORSE!” And about 96% of the time it was absolutely true. Before attributing minor disobediences and one-sidedness to obscure pseudo-medical causes, a couple of riding lessons with an astute trainer can go a long way toward solving problems AFTER your vet has conducted the standard soundness, dental and neurological exams and cleared the horse.

Vets today are too polite to say someone sits like a sack full of cement blocks or is hanging on to the mouth for dear life, rigid from the shoulders down.
They’ll just quietly inject the hocks or whatever and go off muttering. Trainers WILL tell you the truth about how your riding may be making your horse sore enough to be unwilling to perform.[/QUOTE]