Tongue over bit

[enjoytheride]

My new horse has gotten her tongue over the bit twice.

She’s had a nice start in life but has been going with her nose poked out and no connection. She was going in a Dr Bristol that they said was a french link. Right now she’s going in a loose ring with a bean. You can “get her head down” but it’s not correct and being a mare she has some very specific ideas about contact and where her head goes. She has twice now gotten her tongue over the bit during quality dressage work where she’ll throw her head around and protest the difficulties of life and file a grievance and all the things alpha mares do when the program changes.

Any suggestions? I don’t even own anything with a flash and I’m not a fan of tying her mouth shut but I’m willing to use a flash or a figure 8 or change her bit around. I think it’s just a bump in her training but I’d like her tongue to stay under the bit so we can continue to make some progress and not create bad habits or a pain response to working on contact.

[Mango20]

I have a pony (mare) that puts her tongue over the bit and I found that just raising the bit a hole or two higher than I normally put them did the trick. I don’t hear it clanking against her teeth or anything, either.

[2tempe]

I would also check the position and perhaps raise it up, as was mentioned already You might also try a snaffle with just the middle joint in the middle rather than the bean; see if that makes a difference.
My horse would occasionally/randomly get his tongue over the curb bit when riding in the double; my sense at the time was that it was tension.

I get your thoughts on the flash but its not so much tying the mouth shut - they are supposed to be able to chew, etc. two fingers under it. Anyway there is a simple solution for the bridle part : https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/smartpak-buckle-flash-converter--7837?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=nb_shopping_tack_dsk_1p&utm_campaign=&utm_term=2109679668&gclid=CjwKCAiAtej9BRAvEiwA0UAWXuK91FMo47F9ubr0-_KoTCNViTtuT3yt1VavVaGcWQcDF54Zvv2OOhoCvkUQAvD_BwE

[XXS]

Do you use a double broken bit? I often see horses that react sensitive to double broken bits. They are not always tongue friendly, depending on the anatomy of tongue and mouth. I’d try a normal snaffle, work on the correct contact and this comes from the hind leg - and check with another person how strong you are with your hands.

[CobJockey]

Yes to all of this, as the owner of a pony with this habit. Not at all saying this is your problem, but for me, I caused it at first - I used to ride with heavy hands and a body that pulled back even when my hands weren’t. Getting his tongue over then became his default response to things getting hard for him even after I fixed my hands. Hopefully you’re catching this early enough that this doesn’t get as bad as mine did.

It was like a seven step process to fix this for mine, but re: the bits in particular: I found double jointed bits, especially loose rings, hung lower in his mouth than single jointed or straight bar bits given his mouth anatomy (he has very short lips), so they were just asking for trouble and we avoided them. The Bombers Happy Tongue Loose Ring (straight bar version) was the only bit I found that he could not get his tongue over, so that helped break the habit. We then tried a bunch of stuff for a more permanent bit, but eventually landed on a single-jointed eggbutt nathe. I don’t imagine we’ll ever go back to double-jointed with him.

[enjoytheride]

She got it over the bit first with my dressage trainer, who rides PSG so I don’t think it’s me. She did it with me once since then. She’s learning new rules about riding and she’s not super happy with them so I’m hoping it goes away soon when she accepts the way things are, but I’d like to prevent it from happening so it doesn’t become a habit.

[Me_amp_MrTango]

I’d try a single jointed bit with a mild curve to the mouthpiece. Try to adjust the width to the size/shape of your horse’s mouth (e.g. thinner if your horse has thick lips, bigger tongue, low palate, etc.).

My horse used to be quite fussy from bad “crank and spank” dressage training before I owned him. After much experimentation, he is happiest in a basic single jointed eggbutt.

Most of the horses I’ve owned have eventually ended up in plain curved snaffles after I’ve pissed an embarrassing amount of money away on the latest “double jointed super ergonomic softest majikal metal bit du jour”.

[XXS]

The mare is naughty because work gets harder. Your trainer is qualified. Or the mare shows you something is wrong and is not ridden from behind into flexible hands. With a well fitted (!) noseband you can prevent some playing around, but without solving the main problem, many riders tighten the noseband … and tighten …

[merrygoround]

As XXS says. She is not being ridden from behind, and perhaps is being asked to do work which, she neither understands nor is fit enough to accomplish comfortably.

Time to start over, and be sure she can manage level, by level. Gymnastic, by gymnastic exercise, whis is what the various movements are.

[enjoytheride]

Start over from what? My dressage trainer rides PSG. Are you suggesting I fire my trainer who is well qualified to educate a green horse? Both your answers are cryptic and vague.

[XXS]

There are enough creepy riders and trainers out there, so ‘riding PSG’ is not necessarily a qualification. Being a good trainer needs many skills, not every trainer is perfect for every horse … but, at the end of the day: if the equipment fits and the horse is ridden from behind correctly over the back into a soft hand, there shouldn’t be tongue issues (except medical reasons or training reasons that taught the horse to use a specific behaviour as an escape mechanism). You’ll find a chapter on tongue issues in The way to perfect horsemanship by Udo Bürger.

[enjoytheride]

As I said in my original post, she’s green and has been going on a loose rein. Being asked to take contact and have a work ethic and go back to front isn’t in her playbook and I was asking for something to prevent the evasion if necessary while my qualifed trainer helps me work through this bump in the road.

[merrygoround]

That sure sounds like a big change from here. Loose rein to working from behind, essentially engaged.
All PSG riders are not created equal.

Slow down!!!

[LilRanger]

You’ll have to try different things and see what works. You’ve been given some good advice here, so I think you have a place to start. What has you trainer suggested you do? ANd what is the “quality” dressage work you reference?

I will tell you that in my experience, getting the tongue over the bit may begin innocently, but for the horse i knew that did that, it became something of an obsession. He would try to get his tongue over anything in his mouth. I had to ride either with a very high ported bit, or a hackamore. So whatever you decide to do, I’d recommend doing it quick, it’s really difficult to break that habit.

[XXS]

If I got this all wrong, I’m sorry, I thought this horse is asked to go higher level with a trainer and has shown you that something is going too quick, too strong, whatever. Some young horses play around with the bit when they get started as it is totally new.

[enjoytheride]

I give up.

The argument is that my trainer is pulling the horse into a frame and not working back to front. Oh, and that it must be a crappy trainer.

So I explain that trainer is just asking green horse to take contact and is working the horse properly, back to front, asking horse to go forward.

Now that’s too much too? How is it possible to go any slower?

[XXS]

Fit the bridle and choose the perfect bit for the anatomy of this horse. If the horse is totally green and sensitive and was lunged successfully in a cavesson, you can combine this with a bridle and 2 reins. The horse can search the connection trough the cavesson without getting too much pressure on the tongue. If the horse is imbalanced and overwhelmed with getting everything sorted, I’d prepare the horse with lunging, even if this seems ‘a step back’.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Whenever I try to ride a horse in a lozenge three piece snaffle bit I can feel the horses push the center of the bit UP with a stiff tongue. This happened with regular stainless steel snaffles and the Herm Sprenger bit I tried. Since I respect the horses I ride I would go on loose rein and for the next ride switch to a bit without the center lozenge.

This has happened to me with several horses who do not have this reaction to single jointed bits, Mullen mouth bits, Dr. Bristol snaffles so long as I put them on the bridle correctly, Wellep bits or a three piece snaffle with a roller.

If I had continued irritating these horses with this type of bit I am sure that eventually one would have considered putting his tongue over the bit because the horses were acting like the lozenge was really irritating to the center of their tongues. The horses told me they did not find this particular type of bit comfortable at all and I listened to the horses.

Horses do not read ad copy. Expensive fancy bits are not always the answer.

[LilRanger]

@enjoytheride

I give up.

The argument is that my trainer is pulling the horse into a frame and not working back to front. Oh, and that it must be a crappy trainer.

So I explain that trainer is just asking green horse to take contact and is working the horse properly, back to front, asking horse to go forward.

Now that’s too much too? How is it possible to go any slower?

Everyone sees things through their own lens and lots of assumptions are made. the internet is full of blind men feeling up elephants.

However, you are telling us your mare doesn’t like contact or maybe it’s contact with this bit, or maybe its just this bit. Well, contact is her future, but maybe not this bit. Try another bit, adjust it higher, lower, and with a lounging cavesson. Only you can see your horse and your trainer. If your trainer has suggestions, follow those too. It’s a process and there are so very many variables it may take you some time to figure it out, but start with the bit, is what I’m seeing people tell you.

[alibi_18]

I suggest you solely ask your trainer.

Yet, I’m gonna add :

1. If your mare can put her tongue over the bit, it’s not fitting properly. Find a solution.

2. If your mare was only ridden on a loose rein - of course she’s gonna object to contact now. Throwing her head around here and there is not such a big deal in the grand scheme of things - It doesn’t mean you or your mare are wrong, you just need some time to find the proper balance.

3. Why are you asking this question here while you have a qualified person helping you?
   This is quite a complex question - and you seem to know the answers…

Do you realize that you are presently asking internet strangers to guide you through your problems?
What do you want out of this conversation, really? What is there to expect, really?
You are getting what you are paying for.

I understand brainstorming and out of the box ideas … but this question? While you are currently being guided by someone competent, I don’t get it…

Unless you don’t trust your trainer…