Top Eventer breeding

The ‘dumb-blood’ they were referring to was actually Fleetwater Opposition I believe as he was available by frozen semen, but instead they went for Welton Double Cracker.

Don’t believe I misquoted the ‘dumb-blood’ bit but hey strike me down if I did. I’ll wait with interest their breeding/buying decisions in the future… As I said previously concertogrosso, I didn’t want you to take offence at my comments, although your implied criticism of my post makes me thinks perhaps you have, which is a pity.

Originally posted by Drumbiggle:
Btw, if you look at the top 6 rated Hannoverian eventers, according to FEI…

FRH Serve Well (1994) by Sherlock Holmes
Air Jordan (1995) by Amerigo Vespucci xx
Butts Leon (1997) Heraldik xx
FRH Little Lemon B (1991) by Lemon xx
FRH Dusty Ches (1991) by Dynamo
Leonas Dancer (1991) by Solo Dancer xx

4 of them are by TB stallions. So when the WB want to breed an eventer they more often than not put the TB on top.

It gets better…

Butts Leon is 7/8s TB.
Leonas Dancer is 3/4s TB, 1/8 Arab, 1/8 Hann.

So basically they are using the same formula used in Ireland, New Zealand and GB to produce eventers… mostly TB with a dash of something else.

Lily, I believe at least one of the Welton stallions is available from ukstallions…hopefully she will check back in.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SandyUHC:
And all the ISHs!
QUOTE]

Those lovely ISHs were the “almost TBs” I was referring to!
I think it is changing in North America, I think that people do realize that in order to be more competitive at the higher levels you need to breed for eventing -
that doesn’t mean that they are turning away from TBs - or “almost TBs” (ie 3/4, 7/8, 15/16th TB) - but that they are choosing bloodlines and horses with proven success in eventing, or in producing event horses.
And that doesn’t mean that great horses won’t continue to come off the track… I certainly hope they always will. Those horses were bred for eventing too - it’s just the breeders didn’t know it! and they took a side-trip to the race track!

Originally posted by btilton:
Now I had a ton of interest in my ISH girl by parents of eventer kids because of her breeding and she was kid safe to boot, and had some experience cross country, but most didn’t want to pay what the hunter people would pay. She ended up in a hunter home…
B

I think this is an interesting point… god help us poor eventers if horses end up costing what the hunters will pay!

Great topic
Gotta say mix Irish & TB and youve got it covered! Sorry to be such a breed chauvinist.

Ive got a “future” top eventer’s breeding to add to the list
7/8ths Irish Sport Horse by A Fine Romance TB
out of an Irish Sport Horse mare Carrabawn View x Red God (Ire) TB.
No I didnt “breed” him as an eventer - but I know he will be up for the job in 3 years time.
He will probably go the hunter route however - hes such a good mover and has a great mind.

TB lines I like to see in the line up somewhere Princequillo, Buckpasser, Count Fleet.

…when you think about it… Tudor Minstrel was by Owen Tudor who was out of a mare called Mary Tudor, by Pharos.

Pharos was of course, Nearco’s sire.

Grey Sovereign was by Nasrullah who was by Nearco. There’s no doubt that if you can get these lines they certainly seem to deliver the goods.

ThreeDays,

As we write Cornell University is importing 50 inseminations from my Holsteiner international showjumper Condios; half of the inseminations will be used on Cornell’s mares and half they are selling.

Condios’ eldest progeny in Ireland are 5-years-old this year and one of them last year won a Future Event Horse League Qualifier and would have won a second qualifier but the rider missed the start line in the jumping phase. That gelding’s breeding is Condios x Clover Hill x Ballinvella xx.

Tom

From http://www.icsbloodstock.co.uk/

Nearco, Nasrullah And Royal Charger: A Triptych Of Three-Day Breeding 13-12-2004 11:22 pm
Nearco, Nasrullah And Royal Charger: A Triptych Of Three-Day Breeding

By Heather Bailey

Out And About, Murphy Himself, Better And Better and J.J. Babu have more in
common than being unstoppable forces on three-day event cross-country
courses. They each also carry in their pedigrees one of three fiery, dark
stallions whose influence in Thoroughbred breeding would not be fully
appreciated until the breeding of sport horses began to be examined.

Nearco (Pharos-Nogara, Havresac II) was born on Jan. 24, 1935, at the
Dormello Stud on the shores of Lake Maggiore, 40 miles north of Milan,
Italy, at the foot of the Italian Alps. He was bred by famed Italian race
horse breeding theorist Frederico Tesio, who had planned for his arrival
since the purchase of Nearco’s granddam, a mediocre race horse named
Catnip. The dark bay colt quickly proved himself worthy of Tesio’s plans
and predictions. He went to the post 13 times as a 2- and 3-year-old and
was undefeated, usually winning with ease.

If Nearco had a problem, it was his difficult temperament. He was a loner,
suspicious of strangers, and abhorred being groomed or otherwise touched or
handled.

In 1938, in Fascist Italy before World War II, Tesio had to receive
permission to race his horse outside of Italy. He received permission from
Benito Mussolini himself to run in France’s Grand Prix de Paris at
Longchamp race course. Though Tesio’s motivation was simply to prove his
horse equally capable against international company, the race soon became
something of an international incident.

The big, black colt seemed to the nervous French people to represent
the black heart of Fascism itself. They booed and hissed when he strode
onto the course, while the applause for his French rivals was nearly
deafening. The hometown advantage didn’t help them, though, as Nearco
smoked to a 11Ž2-length victory, a victory exacer-bated when Nearco’s
Italian jockey smartly gave the Fascist salute as he paraded to the
winner’s circle.

Four days later he was purchased by British bookmaker Martin Benson for
60,000 pounds. Nearco would never return to the shores of his native Italy,
and he never raced again.

He went to live at Beech House Stud on the outskirts of Newmarket. It
quickly became apparent that his temperament, which had been difficult as a
race horse, was nearly impossible as a stud horse. He hated everyone and
was widely regarded as dangerous, going through 10 stud grooms in as many
months.

In despair, his owner called in vet-eran stud groom Ernest “Ernie” Lee,
well-known as a handler of difficult stallions and operated under a
philosophy of not pushing them, simply letting them do what they liked.
Many doubted even Ernie’s magic would work on Nearco. But, within a few
weeks, Lee and the Italian colt were an inseparable pair. He allowed Lee to
groom and walk him and never acted up so long as Lee was within sight. But
if Lee wasn’t around, Nearco was unapproachable, even to feed.

Nevertheless, his dance card was always full at Beech House, and the tales
of the black stallion’s temper never seemed to put off mare owners.

“Old Ernie had a way with Nearco,” said Michael McFarling, a former stud
groom at Beech House in Reeves and Robinson’s Classic Lines. “They thought
the world of each other. When it was time for Nearco to go to the breeding
shed, Ernie would lead him around on a loose lead singing to him in a
French accent, ‘Thank heaven for little girls. . .’ But it was dangerous
for anyone to get near him without Ernie.”

At the beginning of World War II, as London children were shipped to the
countryside to escape the German blitzkrieg, Nearco and Lee went to live in
the south of Wales, where the valuable stallion could be kept safe. But
there was no truly safe place in England, and the pair returned to Beech
House, where a paddock with a specially constructed cement underground bomb
shelter had been erected for Nearco. Lee trained Nearco to walk underground
at the first wail of the air raid siren, and then wait quietly with Lee
until the “all clear” was given.

By the summer of 1957, the once-ferocious black stallion was ailing,
plagued by a cancerous hip that made getting up and down difficult and a
failing digestive tract that left him nearly unable to eat. Lee created a
special mash of hay and grain that he hand fed to Nearco for several
months, but on June 7 Nearco was unable to stand on his own. Once they got
him to his feet, Lee walked him to the nearby Equine Research Station and
Nearco was humanely destroyed at age 22.

Lee was devastated by the loss of his friend, and he walked away from his
job that day. He never worked with horses again.

LIKE FATHER, LIKE SON

At the time of his death, Nearco had nearly 80 sons standing at stud around
the world. Consequently, he proved to be a successful broodmare sire too,
fathering the mothers of English Derby winners Arctic Prince and Tulyar.

But in 1943, at the Banbury Mile at Newmarket race course in England,
veteran race horse trainer Frank Butters had had more than his fill of
Nearco’s get. A tempestuous 3-year-old Nearco colt named Nasrullah
(Nearco-Mumtaz Begum, Blenheim) was about to drive the normally
mild-mannered Butters over the edge.

The colt, who had inherited his sire’s ebony coat as well as his difficult
temperament, had emerged from the paddock and stopped dead. With the jockey
whipping, the groom pulling, and the horses and riders behind urging,
Nasrullah calmly gazed at the chaos around him and stood as though his feet
had been nailed to the ground. As five minutes stretched into 15, Butters
lost his temper, unfurling his black umbrella and brandishing it at the
colt. Nasrullah was unimpressed. Butters then poked him with it, hard.

Without showing an ounce of remorse or fear, Nasrullah then calmly strode
onto the course, as though this was what he had been doing all along.
Butters was later heard to comment, “I’ve had some brilliant Nearcos, but
sometimes I never want to see another in the yard.” Nasrullah epitomized
this statement.

Nasrullah the race horse was described as spoiled, soft and the type who
would do only as he liked. He was petulant in his stall and a nightmare on
his gallops. He was capable of blinding speed and won several races by huge
margins, but he hated to be forced or challenged, and if he could not win
easily, he would simply slow to a canter and let the other horses cruise
by. Once, when a jockey dared to take the stick to him when he began to
slow on the lead, Nasrullah swerved violently off the course and stopped
dead.

Famous English handicapper Phil Bull once said of Nasrullah’s antics, “He
refused to do anything but behave like a spoilt child. Could the catcalls
and cries of derision that greeted this un-Thoroughbred-like behavior have
been heard by [his sire] Nearco, they might have had a serious effect on
his fertility.”

Nasrullah was born in 1940, bred at the Sheshoon Stud in Ireland by the Aga
Khan. He was royally bred on both sides of his pedigree, with
Nearco-Pharos-Phalaris on the top, and Blenheim crossed with champion Irish
mare Mumtaz Mahal on the bottom (to produce Mumtaz Begum). After his
sketchy career as a race horse, and after siring six foal crops in County
Kildaire that gained him a leading sire title, the Aga Khan decided to sell
him. He arranged to sell him to an Indian investor, not knowing that his
son, the Aly Khan, had already made an arrangement to sell him to the Irish
National Stud for the equivalent of $50,000.

In the end, the Irish got him, and in turn sold him to American racing
entrepreneur Arthur B. “Bull” Hancock for $372,000. Nasrullah arrived at
Hancock’s Claiborne Farm in Lexington, Ky., in July 1950.

Nasrullah proved to be as difficult at stud to manage as his sire, and
Hancock despaired that his investment would never come to fruition because
it was so difficult to get him to and control him in the breeding shed.
There is even a famous story of Hancock setting to Nasrullah with a broom
in the breeding shed after he had come to watch his acquisition perform and
witnessed Nasrullah get out of control.

After another bout of wrestling with Nasrullah, this time over a series of
shots that the stallion simply would not accept, and after watching
Nasrullah nearly tear down the barn, Hancock said wearily, “Guess we’ll
just have to put up with him.”

But, just as with his sire, the key to Nasrullah lay with one man, and that
man was Lawrence Robinson. The veteran stud groom would later describe his
relationship with Nasrullah as a “love/ hate relationship.” The stallion
never came fully around and was always known to kick and bite, but Robinson
forged a connection with the stallion and cared for him every day of his
life.

Initially, Nasrullah would gain fame as sire of flat winners, specifically
the famous Nashua and Bold Ruler. Nasrullah was the leading sire in 1955
and 1956 thanks to Nashua’s victories, and in 1959, '60, and '62 because of
Bold Ruler. Many horsemen were surprised that such a spoiled and
temperamental horse would sire such game campaigners and fighters as Nashua
and Bold Ruler. But even at that early stage, Nasrullah was gaining a
reputation for siring offspring that were, like himself, hard to handle.

All in all, Nasrullah sired 245 American starters, of which 192 were
winners and 53 were stakes winners. His get won 1,088 races and earned
$12,810,228. He topped the leading sire list five times, three of them
posthumously.

Nasrullah died in 1959 of a ruptured blood vessel while romping in his
paddock. Robinson described being “surprisingly choked up” by the
stallion’s loss, and similar sentiments were expressed by those who had
felt both admiration and frustration for Nearco’s big black son. The year
he died, Bold Ruler took up residence at Claiborne, and he became the first
and only horse to surpass his sire’s record atop the leading sire list.
Bold Ruler was No. 1 seven years in a row, eight years total.

BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER

Royal Charger (Nearco-Sun Princess, Solario) was a bit different from
Nasrullah and their sire. Royal Charger was a 16.1-hand, liver chestnut,
renowned for his flawless and elegant conformation. He was described as
“strikingly good looking” by the horsemen of his day.

Although he proved to be a better race horse than Nasrullah, he was still
known for being obstinate and ungenerous. In fact, some thought he simply
didn’t like to race. He was considered one of the better sprinters of his
generation, and had won both the Ayr Gold Cup and the Queen Anne Stakes at
Ascot. In his career he had six wins and 10 placings, though he never
really proved himself over distance or against world-class competition.

Royal Charger was born in 1942 and is really a three-quarter brother to
Nasrullah. They share the same sire (Nearco), and Nasrullah’s dam, Mumtaz
Begum, is Royal Charger’s maternal granddam. He was bred in England by Sir
John Jarvis and was purchased by the Irish National Stud in 1946. He stood
there for seven years, and because of his physical attributes and his
impeccable bloodlines, he covered all their best mares.

Still, his initial results as a sire were something of a disappointment.
While he did produce winners, including Irish champion filly Happy
Laughter, his quota of champion get was far from full. Disappointed, the
Irish sold him to America in 1953, just as his American-purchased son
Turn-to was making his 2-year-old debut. It was Turn-to’s promise that
convinced Neil S. McCarthy and movie mogul Louis B. Mayer to plunk down
$300,000 for Royal Charger. They soon became part of a syndicate managed by
Leslie Combs II, on whose Spendthrift Farm in Lexington, Ky., Royal Charger
went to stand.

Operating under the principle that beauty isn’t always practical, the
breeding managers began to cross him with “tough outcross mares,” who were
far from the beautiful and the best. This made Royal Charger come alive,
genetically speaking.

Although Royal Charger never gained as infamous a reputation as his sibling
or father, he was never known as an easy or gentle horse. He displayed a
very opinionated streak and usually did things in his own way, in his own
time.

He died Nov. 29, 1961, at age 19 from apparent heart failure. He had sired
85 winners of 332 races in the United States, including 24 stakes winners,
for a total of $3,478,533 in purses. Prior to his exportation, his get had
garnered wins in 225 races in the United Kingdom.

While his exportation is now viewed by British turf historians as an
extraordinary blunder by the Irish National Stud, at the time it appeared
that he wasn’t going to be the influential sire that his sire had been.
And, perhaps, had he not been crossed with American bloodlines, he would
never have reached his full potential.

PHYSICAL VS. MENTAL

The question of breeding comes down to the mix of genes, traits, and
personalities, and the animal that results from the mixture. While the good
qualities of the Nearcos-heart, bravery, strength, speed-are clear, they
bring with them some tempestuous baggage-obstinance, craziness,
viciousness, and a single-minded desire to be left alone to do what they
please. These horses’ influence on eventing bloodlines has brought about
some of our most dynamic stars, but many of them are not known
for their easy temperament, or kind dis-positions.

Murphy Himself always displayed utter fearlessness on cross-country,
powering through combinations and over fences with determination. He also
went through several riders before he found one (Ian Stark) who wasn’t
turned white by his when-in-doubt-leave-it-out style.

Out And About surely showed his abilities with his bronze medal at the 1996
Olympics. But, by owner-rider Kerry Millikin’s own admission, he has been a
frustrating horse to own and keep, and he only responded to training when
she tailored everything in his life to suit his preferences.
Nirvana II, Molokai and Dr. Dolittle are all proven international three-day
stars, but they’re far from a ride for the faint of heart.

Most of these Nearcos inherited the temperament and the athleticism of
their ancestors, but is it necessary to have one in order to have the
other? Would the American Thoroughbred have been better served if a little
less fire pumped through its veins? Or is it that obstreperousness, that
devil-may-care streak necessary for an advanced horse?

Denny Emerson, international event rider and breeder of three-day horses,
believes that while an eager temperament is helpful, the notion of the
crazy event horse is inaccurate. “Part of what makes a good event horse is
the temperament of ‘Yes, I can, let me at it,’ and those aren’t always the
quietest and the calmest. But they don’t have to be raving maniacs,” he
said.

“You can turn a Thoroughbred into a raving maniac, but you can turn
anything into a raving maniac. You can have hot horses or quiet horses, but
it doesn’t have to be a ding-dong to be a good event horse. In fact, it
can’t be because that horse will be out in the dressage, and in this day
and age you can’t afford that.”

Dan Rosenberg, general manager of Three Chimneys Farm in Lexington, Ky.,
which stands several Nearco line horses, including 1977 Triple Crown winner
Seattle Slew, said that all horse sports select for similar qualities, not
all of which are physical.

“What we select for on the race track is the same thing you need in the
event world-a big, brave, game horse will do well anywhere,” he said. "In
racing, I don’t think we select for speed as much as courage,
competitiveness or gameness. A good horse knows he’s good and wants to win,
and has that desire to win. When two horses come down to the wire
eyeball-to-eyeball, the one that wins isn’t necessarily the faster one;
it’s the one who looks the other horse in the eye and says, ‘You’re not
getting by me.’ "

Rosenberg added, “I’ve looked at horses coming off the track to begin a new
career, and if it’s a horse that had ability and didn’t try, it’s not going
to do much in the show ring either. But if it’s a horse that tried hard and
just wasn’t fast enough, that horse can go on and be successful.”

And then there is the question of soundness. Nasrullah was plagued with bad
hocks and the Nearco-Nasrullah line was known for weak tendons and bones.
Royal Charger had foot trouble. Clearly, the current incarnation of the
American Thoroughbred is not the most durable in the equine world. But is
this weakness merely a phase of evolution, or is it the result of the
massive breeding of speedy-but-unsound characters like
Nearco-Nasrullah-Royal Charger?

Emerson thinks that racing has selected for the best physical and mental
characteristics, and that any problems are simply a fact of life. “Racing
is the hardest thing a horse can do-it’s sheer speed around those turns on
not-always-great footing,” he said.

“When I hear someone say, ‘That’s a well-bred horse,’ to me that means he
has good feet, good tendons and ligaments, he’s straight and correct
conformationally, he’s got good cardiovascular and respiratory systems, and
he disperses heat well. He possesses superior qualities to handle the
physical and emotional stress of training. The only reason the Thoroughbred
is the top breed it is is because it’s been held to the difficult standard
of ‘can you do it or can’t you?’ And the ones that can, their genes have
come down into our modern horses.”

With confidence in the American Thoroughbred at a low-some say he is too
crazy for amateurs, too frail for professionals-perhaps the answer to the
current debate lies in the past, with those horses whose influence is broad
in many realms of horse sports. Is it acceptable to sacrifice temperament
for performance?

Rosenberg believes that while temperament is genetic, proper handling can
overcome most anything. “I think that temperaments are highly heritable
traits, whether it’s a stallion line, a female family, poultry or a human
being. Behavior characteristics are heritable, but it’s still the old
nature versus nurture question,” he said. “They can have a predisposition
to act a certain way, but it’s how they’re shaped. Some need to be handled
with kid gloves, some are more difficult, some are more aggressive.”

Rosenberg adds that Seattle Slew is a case in point. He describes Seattle
Slew as a very generous horse “as long as you ask. If you give him an
order, you’ll have a fight on your hands. He wants to do it as he wants, he
likes to be in control. But you have a line that you don’t cross with him,
and he has a line he doesn’t cross with you, and you are able to get along
and co-exist well. His sons [Rosenberg also stands Slew O’ Gold and Capote]
are much that way too.”

Emerson thinks that many of the stories of the Nearco line’s difficult
temperament are exaggerated and often the fault of bad handling.

“I’ve had a zillion of them in my barn, and I love them,” he said. “If
you’re a crummy horseman and yank on their mouths and such all day, you’ll
be in trouble. I mean, you’ve got to be able to ride and have a little
sensitivity-it’s all how you treat them. I’m not saying there aren’t hot
horses, but you can usually trace it to the environment.”

In fact, Emerson’s advanced three-day stallion Epic Win (who descends from
both Royal Charger and Nasrullah) is known for his even temperament and has
consistently passed it on to his offspring.

Perhaps the legacy of these three stallions is made greater by the debate
their modern offspring raise. John Hislop, British turf historian and
author of Breeding For Racing, wrote, “When a high-powered pedigree gets
away with it . . . produces a horse in which brilliance is achieved with
temperamental imbalance. . . the product often excels both on the race
course and at stud. At the same time, on the principle that you can seldom
have the jam without the powder, such a pedigree often provides a two-edged
sword with regards to temperament. Nasrullah is a dynamic factor in
Thoroughbred breeding, but like dynamite, must be handled with care.”

Mary Simon of The Thoroughbred Times, Kathy Schenck of the Keeneland Turf
Library, The National Sporting Library, and Dr. Peter Birdsall contributed
research and resources for this article.

Description fits Shauna C aka Galileo.

Fred, our own Canuck whose SN escapes me but whose horses don’t (she came to the BBQ and bred the neat pinto by Tricolore. oh God, this is killing me … on the tip of my tongue … Shanna … what is her SN?) did some research. “Countess Erica” (gag) apparently produced a filly called Dubai Dolly who did quite well on the track. I am not sure if we could find her, or obtain her. But I am very curious to know if she weaves! LOL!

xoxo

Robby

p.s. Mary in Area 1 … you have many options? I would love to see an updated pic of “our girl.” Is she 5 now?

I have a TB mare out of the Caro line that I breed to produce future eventers. Here is her pedigree:http://www.pedigreequery.com/silvershulace

Julia- is welton ambassador available in the US?

3rd generation of CAVALEER my Holsteiner stallion Cottage Son (TB) RAMZES (Anglo-Arab) RANTZAU (TB) contains three lighter stallions - so when I breed him to my New Zealand TB mare I get a foal that is technically carrying more than 1/2TB blood, and heart the dam is not lacking and the sire is bomb proof.

As has been already pointed out, saying Nearco lines are great for this that or the other is like saying you like cars with 4 wheels. It’s harder to find a TB anywhere in the world at this point (from NZ to Ire to US to France) without Nearco in there somewhere than it is to find one with it.

My daughter has an ottb with Shenanigans 3x4. Lovely horse.
In addition to those mentioned already, I also love to see Mahmoud.

How about this mare?

I owned for 7 years

I wanted a filly from her soooo badly.

The following British stallions are available in North America through www.emcostallionservices.com

Welton Adonis
Welton Double Cracker
Fleetwater Opposition
Jumbo
Catherston Dazzler
Catherston Liberator
Dutch Gold
Primmore’s Pioneer
McGuigan
Stanhopes Diddicoy
Several other horses (more dressage or show jumping oriented) and ponies are also available from the UK.

Try a Holsteiner!!! Big gaits, big jump!

Cavalier Royale, full brother to the dam of our Cicera’s Icewater, has for years been a leading eventer sire (he is, for example, the sire of Cavaldi etc).

Icewater himself just won the Ocala Horse Trials with a whopping lead of seven points, and according to his trainer David O’Connor is “exactly the kind of stallion that should be crossed with TB mares to produce top eventers”!

Anna
www.westwiththewind.com

Fred is forgetting she bred another Tudor Minstrel descendent that our own GotSpots now owns.

My mare Willow Bay (Ping’s Skateboard) was by Riverman (Never Bend, Nasrullah) and out of a mare called Tudor Canyon whose dam was Maria Tudor, by Tudor Mintrel.

My mare had two full siblings - a sister called Countess Erica and a brother called Prince Eric (I think) … their sire was named Count Eric.

I also love looking at the UK-horses at Rolex and seeing their breeding - especially if it has the Tudor horses in it.

Denny’s horse Core Buff also was Tudor-bred.

Robby

Robby