concertogrosso - that’s interesting that David O’Connor said that… because when they were putting Ballymar in foal and were offered a warmblood stallion (with an exceptional pedigree in eventing I might add), they said they wouldn’t touch a ‘dumb-blood’.
Mmmmmm call me suspicious, but I’ll believe it when I see the O’Connors put one of their mares in foal to him.
I actually think your horses are very good looking by the way… I wouldn’t want you to think I was criticising them…
in addition to the names already mentioned, we can’t leave out Nasrullah, Royal Charger, Nearco, Bold Bidder…all TB’s but whose bloodlines have criss crossed the Atlantic many times,and who show up prominently in eventers. I had a lovely mare, Shenanigans great granddaughter, who very sadly died last year. Beautiful mare.
I too love Mahmoud. As a young girl, instead of posters of the Beatles, I had a picture of Mahmoud on my wall! 
I also love Julia’s site - beautiful horses!
Yikes, the formatting is all messed up… ph well.
Originally posted by jhodkin:
My choices might be different because I’m in the UK, but I love to see …Tudor Minstrel…
The Tudors that made their way to Canada are finding a nice niche in horse sport. A few of the mares are really kicking ass in the warmblood mare inspections.
Ok, I was told my mare (that I have been breeding TB x WB foals from) she was my jumper - was bred to Event or Steeplechase … here is her pedigree
http://www.pedigreequery.com/happy+morning
what does the family 1-o mean? by the way that is on the opening page when I run her pedigree?
Hi Julia,
Call David if you don’t believe me. 
They LOVE Icewater, and they don’t even like to have stallions in the team. I am not going to reveal all the secrets here, but I know better than mis-quote the O’Connors on the internet.
I was very shocked that eventing people didn’t bid on Cornea Loughine (Bassompierre xx - ID mare) very similar to Custom Made… in the SSA this year.
I keep asking myself, when are the eventing people going to start breeding horses FOR eventing in the U.S.? The more emphasis placed on dressage and show jumping phases… and yet in the U.S. you either go to Ireland or GB, or you buy OTTB and hope for the best… seems like severe lack of planning in that industry.
The ISH is one of the smallest books and yet dominates year after year in WBFSH rankings of producers of international level eventers. These horses are tough, sound and have work ethics out the bazoo, and yet are very rideable and brave.
I am not ‘in’ the eventing world, so maybe they are changing, but gosh, wake up and smell the future market place
B
I was recently speaking to a “mom” at the barn while her daughter was riding and she was saying how much she hates the idea of racing horses and its a terrible sport.
I told her as much as there are things I don’t like about racing, I pray that it remains a force to be reckoned with because 1) can you IMAGINE the price of horses if there weren’t several thousand TB’s coming off the track or never making it there every year? 2) the racing lobbyist have the money to protect some of OUR rights and lobby for tax issues, protect us from PETA-type legislation etc etc.
Good lord! Could you imagine if the race world shut down? The U.S. mare base would dry up in a hurry, so not only would our riding horses sky rocket in price, so would breeding stock and babies. Stallion owners would suffer for lack of mares to bred to, so stud fees would have to increase… I am talking over a few years, but God forbid!
B
I agree with Julia…the majority of Irish breeders I know (and several English as well now that I think about it) feel the “warmblood experiment” as they call it has been a disaster and that it has set the breeding industry in Ireland back several years. Tom, you would seem to be one of the few examples who has had a different experience.
The Irish Horse Board obviously recognizes the problem as they are offering a huge prize (on the order of 5000 euro I believe) this year at the RDS for foals of traditional ISH breeding (ie. TB/RID).
I guess I’ll add my two cents to this discussion. I’m also breeding for top level eventers. With the changes to eventing over the past several years and an increasing focus on dressage scores combined with more difficult jumping complexes found even at the lower level level I feel that the best mount is the WB/TB cross. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinions and I do recognise that the ID has enjoyed some major successes - I just feel the the WB is a better choice for the sport and where the sport is headed.
I prefer the Holsteiner for it’s jumping abilities and modern type and feel that the Holsteiner flat out crosses so well with the TB (due to the breed’s influence from TB blood).
My top breeding choice for the season was the TB Heroicity until his untimely death.
Concertogrosso: Your stallion Icewater was my next pick and I tried winning his stallion auction and raffle at the inspections this past year - but I guess I’ll have to work some overtime in order to raise the funds for his full fee -sigh- 
What a lovely boy!
And I guess I’ll jump on the TB pedigree bandwagon here too and mention that I have 3 TB mares who were all purchaced for crossing to Holsteiners in hopes of producing top eventing prospects.
I have one young mare who is by Chenin Blanc who has Lyphard and Caro on top and Sir Gaylord on the bottom. She has the most amazing movement I’ve ever seen on a TB. But not sure where the movment came from (where in her pedigree) but I’d like to find more of it.
Another mare I have raced on the track for a long career bringing home well over $100k and retiring from racing sound. She will go evening late this year after she foals out (hopefully within the next few days - LOL). She’s a Fappiano (Mr.P) bred mare. She has one of the most golden temperments I’ve known, sound as a dollar, and strong movement.
Then the last mare is a TB with a lot of French blood. A proven producer that we’re just figuring out since she’s our latest addition. She’s a nice mover - not anything as special as our other two TB mares - but she is a very nice conformation type with good angles, topline and bone.
Anyway - I guess my vote is for the WB breeding for eventing with high TB infussion.
What if we let records live and opinions die?
In that case, here are a few links to check out:
Icewaters uncle Cavalier Royale (full brother to Icewater’s dam), long after his death @ age 17 US leading sire of eventers in 2003, incl. Rolex participator Cavaldi, plus Starlight and others. Go to http://www.sporthorse-breeder.com/Stallions/Cavalier_/cavalier_.html
Icewaters breeder Inken Johannsen (together with her parents), qualified for Athens 2004, European reserve champion in eventing, only rides HOLSTEINERS, mostly home-bred, go to http://www.inken-johannsen.de/
Visit her family at http://www.holsteiner-johannsen.de
We actually bred full blooded TBs, including Positive Power by Mokhieba (own son of Damascus) before we decided to opt for more jump and more gaits… Holsteiner.
We still breed Holsteiner TB crosses, the best of both worlds.
Originally posted by concertogrosso:
Try a Holsteiner!!! Big gaits, big jump!
Cavalier Royale, full brother to the dam of our Cicera’s Icewater, has for years been a leading eventer sire (he is, for example, the sire of Cavaldi etc).
That might be strecting it a bit. In Ireland, Cavalier Royale was reknowned as a Showjumping sire. He may have led the USET eventing list, but those lists are a bit of a joke. One generally doesn’t consider him a top eventing sire. When people bred to him, they were going for showjumpers.
ISH xSF on top ?-a very similar outcross to ID/TB - basically maintaining significant TB in there.
Im not really familiar with the majority of SF out there but they are certainly changed from the"old" days when we just thought they were Anglo/Arab TB crosses 
I am impressed with the SF mindset in not closing their book to “any” talent, whatever the origin.
Clarion Hotels Coolcooron Cool Diamond is approved by them as an SF improvement stallion.
Thats the point, these combinations of sport horses are evolving constantly and a lot of the opinions and indeed bias out there- stems from a failure to keep up with the evolution within the marketplace.
Good luck with your guy -Illian is lovely.
Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
Fred is forgetting she bred another Tudor Minstrel descendent that our own GotSpots now owns.
My mare Willow Bay (Ping’s Skateboard) was by Riverman (Never Bend, Nasrullah) and out of a mare called Tudor Canyon whose dam was Maria Tudor, by Tudor Mintrel.
My mare had two full siblings - a sister called Countess Erica and a brother called Prince Eric (I think) … their sire was named Count Eric.
I also love looking at the UK-horses at Rolex and seeing their breeding - especially if it has the Tudor horses in it.
Denny’s horse Core Buff also was Tudor-bred.
Robby
Robby
I had a brain bubble Robby - the beautiful Willow, what an exceptional mare…do you think we could find her sister??
I agree with you, Julia, that top-level eventing needs a lot of TB. With the new rules I’d be looking at 75% TB, as a general rule for my own breeding programme.
I love anything decended from the mare Shenanigans. She produced the great race mare Ruffian as well as stallions Icecapade and Buckpasser.
There really isn’t much money in breeding event horses. But if I won the lottery I’d fill my barn with mares with either of those stallions in their pedigree, and maybe a Turn to line and soon have a huge string of top event horses.
I think Irish breeding for the jumpers using warmbloods has worked very well -Cavalier Royale and all his ISH offspring are dominating the top of the sport - and in eventing as they move more to SF it may still be proven. I think it is also offering lower levels of the sport more horses that ammies can ride. A lot of the Irish TB’s are not a " general" ride.
So what do you think of the combination of ISH and SF?
I ask because I have a (rising) yearling by a SF Stallion (Illian de Taute-currently jumping at the GP level) out of a RID x TB mare, and I am hoping the combination will give me the best of both worlds. His SF sire is almost 50% TB.
Yeah, but wasn’t that “dumb-blood” Windfall? I think they just didn’t think Ballymar would cross well with Windfall. Plus, there were politics involved, methinks.
Anyway, I love Icewater! But I also LOVE full TB’s.
Can’t decide about my own mares. I have one 3/4 TB ISh by Albe Albert and one full TB by Loyal Pal with fabulous Turn-to/Royal Charger blood.
Any suggestions for my girls?
equibrit - thank you for posting that, I loved reading it again.
Julia - I’m old myself! 
This is my colt by Cavaleer at ONE day old he has a long stride like his TB mother I am hoping he will do eventing or jumpers later, depending on how old I feel when he is riding. His sire is by Capitano/Cordelabryere bloodline he has a decent amount of sport TB in him.
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