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You said that you don’t want to discuss lunging technique, but perhaps as you review this video you might want to focus on how often you find yourself backing away from your mare, evidenced by slack in the line as she cuts in towards you. That’s where it’s starting. She’s not moving out of your space - she’s actively moving you away from her. She’s not paying attention for long stretches in the video either, looking outside of the pen, not PROMPTLY listening to your commands for downward transitions. The point at the end of the video where she’s snarking at you? You think you’re moving her out on the circle, but she thinks she’s pushing you out of her space and is doing the mare thing to push you out.
If it helps your confidence, wear a helmet. Wear gloves so you can hold the line and PULL her head to face you if she tries to move her back end into you. But, at least from this video, it looks like she needs lessons in respecting your space, and you some practice in defending it, even with a halter and lead line. Some mares keep testing those boundaries. My gelding is constantly checking in to see if he trusts me to make the decisions. It starts small, so my adjustments aren’t even corrections, much less battles with faces and gestures. But it takes practice and awareness.
This is, unfortunately, very common among supposedly Parelli trained horses. She fights back when she thinks you’re threatening her - this isn’t something you caused, but is what happens when you think shaking a rope to jerk on the horse’s head and whacking a horse in the face will fix things. (And yes, see many Parelli videos and episodes from their tv show - they DO encourage this.)
She looks like she’s calm until the whip is pointing toward her, then she freaks out, and each time you take it back, away from her, she settles. Fight of flight - and she learned flight didn’t work, so she’s fighting. Adjusting the side reins on her so she felt even more trapped just made that fight instinct even stronger. She’s NOT a btch, but she is dangerous - I think you owe it to both of you to get professional help, because she doesn’t deserve to be put in a situation where she hurts someone, and you don’t deserve to be hurt. There’s more going on than we can help you with here, and I don’t in ANY way think she’s doing this because she’s “a b!tch.”
Since you seem to hate this horse and things keep going from bad to worse, I’d be happy to take her off your hands and can have her on a trailer this weekend.
I’d have this b*tch in my barn, any day.
Firstly don’t blame the g-g. I’m a total witch for a couple of days a month and I hate that about myself!
Could you try oestress or something similar? That would be a good first step.
Aside from that, you need consistent, firm but fair handling. And yes, that might err on the side of firm to start with. When you lunge, hold your hand lower, and hold your whip properly, pointed just behind her hindquarters. Lifting your hand like that is actually an indicator of stress or tension. You can use that aid to ask for more speed or energy, which I’m guessing is not what you’re after. Don’t flap your lunge line either, that annoys most of them, it’s not a forward aid, your whip is for that!
Your body language there is a bit too ‘pushover’ - I can see a clever mare thinking that you look unprepared so she may just try her luck.
Also she was remarkably well behaved considering she’d had three weeks off. ALSO that was a lot of cantering in a very small circle, I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s finding that hard and getting frustrated. I would stick to larger circles if you can, less cantering and less time.
I don’t personally like parelli, on a dominant type mare anyway, every parelli trained horse I know has been bolshy and horrible. They are all dominant type mares so I think they might have been prone to that anyway and perhaps why parelli was attempted in the first place, but in my experience the results haven’t been favorable.
But yeah. She’s not really a bitch - if they’re being pissy it’s generally a discomfort, confusion or a dominance thing, and either way that falls to us.
Body language and ground work are your friends. High hands = frantic. So avoid that! When you ask her to back up, don’t wiggle her face. Gently apply pressure to her chest, if it doesn’t happen, POKE her chest. When she pins her ears and snakes at you, that is NOT okay and you do need to shut that down asap. At the moment it looks like she’s bordering on whether to retaliate or not, and I think that will be down to your body language. Once she tips over the edge and starts fighting back, that is when you have a serious problem. To me she doesn’t look totally convinced of her dominant behavior. Neither do you to be fair 
So there is hope!
I would carry a schooling whip instead of a lunge whip, and give her a swat on the chest and a ‘NO’ if she even threatens that. And I mean a deep voiced no, with conviction! You can’t get in an argument with a horse. It needs to be an effective correction then move on. You can’t nag or niggle or it escalates!
Sometimes we just don’t click with horses. No shame in that, but you have to overcome any negative or personal feelings and be calm and fair no matter what. If something isn’t working, try a different approach. It’s good that you asked here 
She’s such a bitch because she’s a dominant mare that doesn’t respect you. You let her be a bitch. Just like with women: some are just bitches and think they own the world and can do whatever they want.
I agree with rfath: your problem isn’t just at the end. She’s disrepecting you throughout and you’re missing it, which establishes in her brain that she is the boss. You said you’ve tried getting her to give her hind end and she snarks…well, you’re stopping to early and she’s winning. Again, she’s establishing dominance over you. When you back away from her, she’s establishing her dominance. You pretend to ask her to move back away from you and she doesn’t. She’s establishing dominance. Honestly, you looked pretty scared of her…and maybe rightly so, But by God if she did that to me, she’d think her life was ending for approximately 30 seconds.
Start thinking in terms of moving feet. If you can move her feet where you want them, you are the dominant one. If she moves your feet (you backing away, etc), she’s the dominant one. That’s really the basis of Natural Horsemanship. Think like a horse. (BTW - Parelli is a dolt. Get the real stuff, not some stupid games that lead to nowhere. There are a number of quality NH folks that can really help you…and they usually aren’t going to be the ones with a full program you can buy for just $99.99).
She has very little respect for you and I do believe your answer is going to be with good groundwork (Parelli is not good groundwork). You will need to get her good and then continue doing groundwork to start every day with her. She looks like the type that is going to always test, so it will be your responsibility to re-establish that you are herd leader each and every day.
This is a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enYo0r-4OoE Notice when Buck steps into the horse’s shoulder, the horse moves away. Your horse is missing that piece. (among others). Notice at the end the horse yields the hind as Buck walks toward it. If the horse doesn’t do it well, Buck doesn’t back off, but continues until the feet are moving the way he wants. Rent the 7 clinics DVDs and watch/re-watch them over and over. THAT type of groundwork is what your mare needs…and YOU need to learn how to be the leader and not back away from her. There are spoiled horses on the DVDs (and yes, your horse is quite spoiled) and watching how they are dealt with should help you a lot.
You are a super passive presence and she’s walking all over you in little ways until it inevitably escalates. Lunging is supposed to be you moving the horse away from you - instead, she is moving YOU away from her.
I don’t think it’s so much that she’s dominant (if all the horses people described as “dominant” were actually dominant, horses would NOT be flight animals who live in herds!) as insecure. She doesn’t know what to expect from you. You need to be calm, firm and consistent.
Fast forward to 8:30
For those who don’t want to watch the whole thing, fast forward to about the 8:30 mark.
I am really curious what happens between video edits at 8:45, 9:11, and especially 9:22. You say you smacked her. Did you edit that out at 9:22? Why did you splice the video?
The hand at 8:50 and 9:20 and stepping back at 9 looks like you are scared. If you believe this horse is attacking you, of course you are scared! Not a useful frame of mind when working with any horse. Seek a pro! Or rehome her before you are seriously injured.
9:11 - 9:30 you could have had a serious wreck with those coils of lunge lines under her feet.
What was your overall goal? The vid description says a quick exercise. I think maresy was d-o-n-e and I nearly was too, just watching.
Listen to the words you typed: bitch, dominant, leader, bossy, pissy, outbursts, “prey on me,” etc. Yikes! Find a reputable trainer and instructor to teach you how to work with her.
In my first viewing I missed the part where you dropped the lunge line around her front legs and hit her in the face.
You need a pro.
I agree with the passiveness. You’re not effectively getting after her to correct the snarkiness. You’re more or less just swatting at her with a limp wrist and backing away which just makes her think she’s moving you away which is what she wants.
First off, you never lunge without gloves or a helmet, especially when you have a horse that already gets pissy and strikes at you. You need to go in that ring prepared and ready to work.
Agreed with others who said she doesn’t pay attention to you. Keep your eye on her shoulder, quit shaking the darn lunge line at her and give her a snap on the line when you see her mind wander. Talk to her throughout to keep her on you. Do quite a few transitions. Try not to canter too much on the lunge.
Put a few ground poles down on the “clock” (12-3-6-9) to help keep her focus on the task at hand.
When you ask her to halt she should stand where she is and face you. YOU go to HER. Not the other way around. Keep a hold on that lead and don’t let it slack up, then you get flustered and have a dangerous amount of line on the ground that she will get caught up in while you’re trying to correct yourself and defend off her attacks.
In short. Pay attention to her, make her pay attention to you at all times, and just make her work. Ignore Parelli and just work on the ground on re-establishing her manners.
ETA: I watched it again. I’m sorry but you really don’t have a grasp on lunging.
Please get a trainer to work with you to help build confidence and give the mare back her manners. NOT a parelli trainer.
Don’t do this!! Okay, there was a thread a while ago about guard dogs.
It was mutually agreed that those who silently lock eyes with you and walk steadily towards you with intent make you sit up and listen. A low growl in the throat is an added bonus. The yipping and jumping around isn’t so bad!
Think about considered (slow but purposeful) movements, strong stance, low voice. Keep hands low, and avoid messing with her head if you can. Correct ONCE and mean it. Do NOT let her push you back.
Again, the lunge whip looks more like a hindrance then a help, use a really swatty schooling whip with a leather tab on the end. But again, you shouldn’t have to use it often, if you find yourself resorting to it frequently things aren’t headed in the right direction. It shouldn’t go anywhere near her head, if it has to make contact, chest or fleshy bit of shoulder, you don’t want it to hurt, just make a loud noise!
So that is about protecting yourself. Which is important. I probably would wear a hat or even a BP for the first few sessions. Work on basics. Forward, woah, sideways, backwards. Ask nicely, if she doesn’t respond add more pressure, enough pressure that she WILL respond. Remember to release pressure and reward, even if she only shows a tiny bit of movement in the right direction. I would avoid food rewards with this one! If she so much as pins her ears, you blimmin well CHASE her to the end of the lead rope. And I MEAN IT!!
Also reassess your goals - you don’t want to scare her. You want to reassure her! With a horse that can take a bit of tough love. You can do this!! You just need to be totally consistent all the time.
[QUOTE=soloudinhere;7795462]
Since you seem to hate this horse and things keep going from bad to worse, I’d be happy to take her off your hands and can have her on a trailer this weekend.
I’d have this b*tch in my barn, any day.[/QUOTE]
I hope you’re kidding. I absolutely DO NOT hate this horse. I love her and I think that’s part of the problem.
I have never been a fan of parelli, and am wondering if her constant challenge when I attempt what I was told to do, stems from her parelli “training”. It does seem to make steam blow from her ears so to speak, and was told it was because I was challenging her, and that it needed to be “broken”…
Last time I take parelli seriously.
She’s amazing sometimes. Really. I over-worry, ask too many questions, and spit every last bit of information out about what’s going on because I DO care about this horse. She’s a salty-sweet type. I love the fire, and I LOVE her work ethic under saddle, when we aren’t having fitting issues.
I will be the first to admit that I am a much more able horseperson under saddle than I am on the ground (in a lunge or round pen setting). That’s just lack of experience. I have been trying to seek professional help, but the last two people I contacted wanted to work parelli with her and told me that that was all I needed to do to get her back. I express that I don’t know parelli or understand it. Currently searching for someone else.
So. I need to stand up and be more assertive. It’s not that I’m scared of her, but she catches me off guard, and clearly, from the video, it shows that I retreat from her, letting her win.
Good point on the moving away from her. I guess I didn’t realize that’s what I was insinuating to her. She’s much easier to manage at liberty than on the lunge. I hate the lunge because I am not the most coordinated with gadgets and junk in my hands.
So the question bares, how do I practice defending my territory? She is a dream on the ground in cross ties and while being lead. This only really happens when she is being worked on the lunge or in the round pen.
What can I do to communicate with her in a way that does not threaten, amp her up, or stress me out? I always go in with a clear calm mind, but by the end when (typically) she’s challeneged me three times, it gets frustrating. I send her off one last time so that she doesn’t think challenge means she gets to stop working, and then eventually stop, because I’m from the mindset that when you’re frustrated it’s not good for the horse or for yourself.
Should I be looking for a trainer who specializes in something like this? I obviously don’t want to go to another parelli trainer. I also feel that most of the hunter jumper trainers in my area don’t do much with ground work (hence why I learned a lot more under saddle vs on the ground in my days). And my last question, do I explain the entire situation to the trainer, or do I let them work her and figure out what they see the issue to be?
LOVE this pony to death, there are just a lot of road blocks with her that I never experienced with previous mounts. This is also my first mare, and I don’t know if I just lucked out with one who has a STRONG mind, but she’s tainting my opinion of mares a bit (I’m kidding, kind of) 
Are there any ‘cowboy’ trainers near you? They could definitely help you with groundwork.
Okay, just remember the basics. Ask nicely once, if she doesn’t respond, ask and MEAN it. The level of ‘ask’ really depends on the situation.
For example, if she wandered into my space, I would just use the aid to ask her to move back out and carry on. (whatever aid you use, I point at whatever bit of my horse needs moving and click, but you could just manually shove her if she’s not at that stage)
If she pushed into my space with her ears pinned, yes, she would get a whack on the shoulder and I would expect her to retreat to the end of the rope. Then I would carry on as normal, not squabble. I can’t emphasize enough, you need to MEAN these aids. Hopefully only for a short time while the message sinks in, and then you can refine them, but if you act uncertainly she will get confused and even more moody.
Dressage trainer would actually be my first choice, but show jumpers don’t take no sh** If you have good one locally I would go with them.
PS-The splits are from the camera turning off and on when the battery gets low.
Also- the part where she got a hand to the nose was because she bit at my hand. Sorry but biting of any type when I’m right in front of her especially is not permitted and you will get a whack on the nose for it. Call it abuse, but that’s not okay.
Which leads me into, I’m not scared of her. I just get caught off guard, and I guess I really don’t know how to defend myself against her.
Going to search hard for a trainer today.
You guys have pretty much blown the little bit of confidence I had out of the water and into the trash can. Not saying that’s a bad thing, but I just feel helpless, useless, and pathetic, and came here to get some ideas on how to regroup and work from what’s going on.
Calling a trainer.
But.
If anyone has any more ideas on how I can stand up to her better, I’m all ears.
Wanna give me a lunge lesson, Go ahead. I was trying to avoid the stabs because I KNOW that I’m not a pro a lunging. I never claimed to be. But since it’s the general consensus that I suck, I will heed all advice. Just remember, again, as I have said, at liberty, things go a lot differently. YES we still have these issues, but as far as where the line is and what my hand is doing, that is omitted at liberty. I’m more at her girth, she knows leading hand up means change direction, and following with lunge line means speed up, dropping down of line means hold steady, and a verbal whoah, or verbal request of walk means walk. The lunge screws me up. Again, not coordinated. I just felt it was safer to have her on the lunge when putting stuff on her for the first time so that I can control a blow up. (which, pertaining to the junk, she did not have)…
agree with stuff above. Lunging needs work, you are passive. If you can’t find a trainer, at the very least get some books. Many young horse texts describe proper lunging technique and body language. It would be a start to help you make sure you are presenting yourself (to her) the way you wish. Try a dressage trainer, or event trainer if H/J isn’t cutting it for you. If you can’t find a trainer that you are satisfied with, the onus falls on you to become educated and help your mare. The fact you care is a great start! good luck.
[QUOTE=Pipkin;7795588]
Okay, just remember the basics. Ask nicely once, if she doesn’t respond, ask and MEAN it. The level of ‘ask’ really depends on the situation.
For example, if she wandered into my space, I would just use the aid to ask her to move back out and carry on. (whatever aid you use, I point at whatever bit of my horse needs moving and click, but you could just manually shove her if she’s not at that stage)
If she pushed into my space with her ears pinned, yes, she would get a whack on the shoulder and I would expect her to retreat to the end of the rope. Then I would carry on as normal, not squabble. I can’t emphasize enough, you need to MEAN these aids. Hopefully only for a short time while the message sinks in, and then you can refine them, but if you act uncertainly she will get confused and even more moody.
Dressage trainer would actually be my first option, but show jumpers don’t take no sh** If you have good one locally I would go with them.[/QUOTE]
thanks Pipkin, I will remember the things you said.
Dressage trainer is the one who taught her and did parelli work with her. I of course, was not there when she was working with this trainer, so I don’t know for sure if she had blow ups with this trainer when she asked the things I did of her and got a blow up.
Was thinking a cowboy trainer might be the way to go. That’s what is plentiful in this area.
Thanks to those who genuinely are trying to give me good ideas and suggestions. The last post was kind of a “hey thanks for stabbing at my ego, guys” but I really do appreciate those trying to help and not poking at me and trying to make me feel inferior.
[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795596]
I was trying to avoid the stabs because I KNOW that I’m not a pro a lunging. I never claimed to be.[/QUOTE]
Do you understand why we may be confused to hear that even though you admit you lack experience and confidence with lunging and you are already having trouble with the horse in question, you want opinions on the horse you are lunging but you don’t want to hear anything about how your lunging technique may be exacerbating the problems you’re having with your mare?
If you’re having trouble with lunging we sort of need to look at the whole picture. If you’re not competent at lunging, don’t do it. It’s only going to make things worse.
It’s that simple.
You are allowing her to dominate you. If that was my horse I would have gotten after her hard at the first “snarl” with a sharp growl and probably a sharp smack with a stick. Snarling, biting and of course attacking are completely unacceptable and will not be tolerated, period. I personally would also wear a helmet while working with her because you do have a problem.
I agree she has your number and you let her get away with it BECAUSE you love her. A no nonsense cowboy would be my first choice too. Good luck! You seem well on your way to a healthier path for you both now with this realization :yes:
