.

[woodhillsmanhattan]

She sure is beautiful! And seems very pleasant in the beginning. Remember, horses are not “bitches” or “assholes”. She learned this reaction somewhere. She did not walk out of her stall one day and decide to be grumpy or have the intent to harm someone. I agree with the poster that mentioned she is turning to the “fight” reaction because in the past the “flight” reaction has not worked.

Correct me if I am wrong, but she seemed to switch her lead behind and cross canter a few times (it was hard for me to tell because I only watched it once and she would go in and out of the frame). She would also lift her head and invert. To me, that indicates discomfort behind. That tight circle is probably very hard for her. Whether it be back pain, hocks, or something else. The side reins made her feel trapped and would prevent her from lifting her head to avoid that pain, so she reacted. She seemed to be trying very hard to please before that. I haven’t read your other threads, does she do this undersaddle or when you are leading her or at any other times besides lunging?

To me, it did not look like you turned your back and she decided to attack. It looked like she went to follow you, you corrected her, and then she reacted. It may have been a result of her previous training. It seemed like she was expecting a yank or smack on her face. Horses don’t like that. Some people will yank or smack, then the horse tries to throw it’s head up to get away and then is yanked again to try and bring the head down. They don’t know what is the right thing and get confused.

I know a horse currently that will react the exact same way if you smack him with your hand, whip, or to harshly with the lead shank anywhere, not just his head. The key with him is to use more body language and less hand and it’s all about making sure he stays out of your space. When I lead him from the pasture we will halt and back up a number of times. The goal being for him to stop when I stop walking. If he does this, we don’t back up and I tell him good boy and gently pet him (he doesn’t like being patted). If he doesn’t, I turn to face him, walk toward him, and expect him to move away from me. If he doesn’t move away I apply pressure with my hand on his chest or gently use pressure from the lead shank on the halter. No slapping, swinging the rope, or loud voice. Also, be slow and definitive in your progression of aids. There is no hurry. As long as he moves away from me I don’t care if it’s a 5 minute process. Quick reactions to these types of horses will set them off. Move slow, make sure they understand what you are asking.

I would wear a helmet. Don’t do liberty for a while if you don’t feel comfortable. Don’t use a whip. Focus on body language and get help from a professional. Also, I only use voice aids if my horse knows the aid. Whoa for slow down, a cluck to speed up, “good boy” as a reward. Excessive voice clouds the other aids and they don’t know what they should be focusing on.

ETA: You people respond quickly here! I was writing my post in between doing stuff so didn’t read some of the later replies before me. Take parts of my post that apply and ignore the parts that you don’t need since you have replied since with updates :).

[Pipkin]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795596]

Also- the part where she got a hand to the nose was because she bit at my hand. Sorry but biting of any type when I’m right in front of her especially is not permitted and you will get a whack on the nose for it. Call it abuse, but that’s not okay. [/QUOTE]

Not abuse at all! But I find, if they’re annoyed already, doing stuff to their head makes them worse, it’s best to use lower neck/chest/shoulder for discipline, I don’t know why, it just doesn’t aggravate them in the same way and has a better effect.

Don’t lose your confidence We all get stuck sometimes!! I have horse confidence but no people confidence. I’d rather be in your boat haha.

Pretend you’re a catwalk model or someone equally as poncy. When you are around her, head up, chin up, walk with purpose! For the most part ignore her. She should be the one listening to you, not the other way around. See it almost like a lecture situation. You teach, she should be listening, you don’t need to spoon feed her. As for space, you are going where you are going no matter what she does. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR PATH FOR HER. Again, mostly ignore, if she does something good, pat and verbal praise, if she does something obnoxious, BAM, correction, then back to what you were doing, no fuss.

[midstride]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795607]
.
Thanks to those who genuinely are trying to give me good ideas and suggestions. The last post was kind of a “hey thanks for stabbing at my ego, guys” but I really do appreciate those trying to help and not poking at me and trying to make me feel inferior.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry. I was not trying to be snarky at all. Books help me so that is all I meant. I did not mean to suggest you were uneducated. Just more education does not hurt.

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=french fry;7795613]
Do you understand why we may be confused to hear that even though you admit you lack experience and confidence with lunging and you are already having trouble with the horse in question, you want opinions on the horse you are lunging but you don’t want to hear anything about how your lunging technique may be exacerbating the problems you’re having with your mare?

If you’re having trouble with lunging we sort of need to look at the whole picture. If you’re not competent at lunging, don’t do it. It’s only going to make things worse.

It’s that simple.[/QUOTE]

You are right. But I wrote this post knowing all too well how snarky people get. “OMG why are you shaking your hand? WTF ARE YOU DOING” Those kind of things are not necessary. It’s all about the tone. I shake the lead because in the “parelli training” the trainer told me to do so to redirect her attention & use it to slow her down" so honestly I was just utilizing what I was told to do.

I am open to help. That’s why I am here. BUT. I am NOT open to rude, snarky, nasty comments about it.

If you want to help that’s great, but getting snotty and bashing at the way I do something is not okay. Ask why, and if my response isn’t valid, or I don’t have a reason, then correct me, but explain why. And don’t belittle and berate me for the way in which I do something.

(I’m not directing this at you, by the way )

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=midstride;7795637]
I’m sorry. I was not trying to be snarky at all. Books help me so that is all I meant. I did not mean to suggest you were uneducated. Just more education does not hurt.[/QUOTE]

oh no not you! I was referring to MY last post. Sorry! No! Books are great! I agree!

[Spud_amp_Saf]

Fear not OP, lunging is not hard to learn but it is helpful to get some in person pointers in order to learn to do it productively. Anytime you are working your horse on the ground, you are having a conversation with your body language the entire time, same as you are when you are on their back. With mares, in general, you have to be extra aware of this, especially the more dominant ones. With a few tweaks to your body position and your approach, you should be able to get her respect in no time.

[RugBug]

@LittleMissBigTime;7795562

So. I need to stand up and be more assertive. It’s not that I’m scared of her, but she catches me off guard, and clearly, from the video, it shows that I retreat from her, letting her win.

for now…you need to be always vigilant with her. do not give her an opportunity to catch you off guard. Once she’s respecting you, it will ease up. but the fact that you can’t turn your back on her without some nastiness means you’ve got work to do.

So the question bares, how do I practice defending my territory? She is a dream on the ground in cross ties and while being lead. This only really happens when she is being worked on the lunge or in the round pen.

I like the flag that Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, and Buck Brannaman use. It has a lot of different purposes and it’s a rare horse that will continue advancing into a flag that is telling them to back off. (Please note: there’s different ways to use a flag: as a driving aid, as a directional aid, and as a back off aid just to name a few. It’s up to the user to understand how to get the correct response with the use of the flag.) If she comes at you or dives in the circle, the flag can re-direct the body par that starts the dive (shoulder, for instance) or just altogether say, “get the f@#k back” by using a lot of energy in it.

What can I do to communicate with her in a way that does not threaten, amp her up, or stress me out? I always go in with a clear calm mind, but by the end when (typically) she’s challeneged me three times, it gets frustrating.

If you do the groundwork first…and it’s not in an attacking manner…she should get with the program. Horses WANT boundaries. They want to know what they can and can’t do. Think about what happens when a new horse is put into a turnout group: it’s all testing and challenging and turmoil until they figure out their roles/boundaries. Once boundaries are established the herd gets fairly peaceful. Your horse is confused because she’s not quite sure what she can and can’t do. Is she the boss? Are you? Once you set the boundaries for her…and remember to maintain those boundaries, she’ll fall in line. Each day start with pieces of the groundwork. Yielding the haunches. Yielding the forehand. Backing. Etc. There may be ugly moments, but go back to calm happy land as soon as she allows.

Should I be looking for a trainer who specializes in something like this? I obviously don’t want to go to another parelli trainer. I also feel that most of the hunter jumper trainers in my area don’t do much with ground work

@RxCate;7795571

Are there any ‘cowboy’ trainers near you? They could definitely help you with groundwork.

I say rather than just “cowboy” look for Vaquero type of cowboy. The vaquero tradition is the roots of natural horsemanship and when done right (and not marketed up the wazoo by some mass machine that is focused on money and not horsemanship), it is really beneficial. Do whatever you can to stay away from Parelli. Blech.

Join www.barnsweetbarndvds.com and rent as much Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorrance, Buck Brannaman, as you can. (there are others that I’m not familiar with, but the 4 above are the best…so why not go to the best? )

when I started doing the groundwork, I felt like the biggest fool there is…but I can say without a doubt that because I persisted, my horses are in a much better place. I am actually better with them on the ground than in the saddle, but studying the four listed above has taken their manners to the next level…and there is still so much more to learn.

[inca]

VERY pretty mare!

Saying “now, quit” in a timid voice is NOT going to stop this behavior. Mare was DONE and knew she could bully you. She has your number big time and you need professional help in order to get this problem under control.

Agree with french fry. It is impossible to help solve the problem without critiquing your longeing. The problem is the mare does not believe she has to do what you tell her to do. You need a pro to train both you and the mare and this problem will go away.

[woodhillsmanhattan]

And if it makes you feel better I am super uncoordinated with the lunge line too :P. I like to no use a whip or use a shorter whip (like a dressage whip, or flag or something) and have two hands on the lunge at all time. My right hand is the “contact” hand. So it holds the lunge that is attached to the halter or bridle in the same manner I hold my reins when riding. My left hand holds the slack and the whip. You can feed more line or shorten the line much easier with two hands.

[khall]

I like your mare, very pretty and my favorite color.

Rather than this lunging or even round pen/liberty work I would do actual ground work to be able to control and direct her shoulders and her HQs. Get her moving away from you when you step into her, she should NEVER step into you unless you invite and with her I would not invite at this point if ever. STAND YOUR GROUND, looks like you have a rope halter, get a NH rope type lead and lunge line so there is some weight to your corrections. be as soft as you can (she is a mare and because of this will be easy to offend) but as strict/strong as you need to be. If you are lunging do way more transitions so she has to pay attention to you. She needs to work on her balance and just trotting long time or cantering circle after circle is not helping. Get more comfortable with your tools, even work with them asking a friend to be your “horse” so you can be clearer with your mare. I think the work that Buck does and Manola Mendez with his lunging/in hand technique will benefit you and your mare.

Good luck and don’t get hurt.

[gloriginger]

It seems that you are riding this mare? Why are you longing her? I am confused as to the point of this session. Are you afraid to ride her so you work her on the ground?

I know you don’t want feedback on your longing technique, but I think a lot of what is your problem IS your technique. First, your line is too short, causing you to aimlessly walk around in a circle in the middle of the round pen. Your line should be long enough that you have a foot or two at the end, and hold that end in the other hand. The arm that has contact with the head should be elbow at your side so you have room to move. If you are at the end of your line, you have nothing to hold onto when and if she bolts. Your whip is up in the air, flapping around - quite honestly I think she is being pretty decent about that considering, although it does seem that she is kind of checked out in the beginning.

I agree that a shorter whip would be better for you, less awkward less flipping around. If you must use that one, have it low behind you, and use the blunt end to ask her to move. There are also times when you get ahead of her, and behind her, you would have your hips at a triangle between the shoulder and the hip. You stay there, moving your feet very little as she moves around you. A lot of your body language is very awkward and uncertain- which is why I question what the point of this session is- especially if you are already riding her…do you have problems with her under saddle too?

She looks like quite a nice mare, but mares do not put up with BS like a gelding will…honestly, at the point where she starting pinning her ears at you, I would have taken a deep breath, decompressed, talked to her, and then continued on with what ever I was hoping to accomplish.

Just remember that longing is not comfortable for a horse. Backing is not comfortable for a horse. Think of difusing your mare when she gets pissy- don’t escalate the drama, it will just get worse. Stop free longing her, if you are riding her you don’t need to be doing that.

Not trying to be a jerk, but I think you need to take ownership for your own problems in this situation. Try being softer with everything you do. Try soothing when she gets upset instead of getting your own back up. Most likely this will difuse her, and not get to the point of her charging you and biting you. My guess is that is what she is here to teach you- how to use the minimal amount of pressure to get the desired result.

[merrygoround]

You have had others tell you. So I will just agree with them. Your longeing technique is not just bad, it is dangerous. Whip over your shoulder which comes into play now and the with a loud snap. A loose flapping longe line. Standing directly in front of your horse and attempting to start her off with all sorts of loopy line.

Get thee to her shoulder, and don’t allow it to come back to you or get ahead of you. Put on a helmet and gloves. Slapping in the head only makes her quicker at dodging and head shy. Snapping the line at her to ask her to move in is counter productive and intuitive.

There are you tubes of good longing, sadly there are also youtubes of bad longeing too. Way too many bad ones. This one is basically quite correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzllyMOx7E

[Simbalism]

The video said off for three weeks. You state that you were introducing martingale and side reins. If the horse truly hadn’t done anything in three weeks, I wouldn’t think that was a good time to introduce new equipment. I rarely lunge my horses. I had an old gelding that was so bad that my trainer tried and after 30 min said to me… Don’t lunge him again. He would turn his butt to you and kick out, turn towards you and grab the lunge line in his mouth and sometimes rear and strike out. My old mare is well trained to lunge, but when she has been very frisky, she will cross canter, buck, rear and cut in toward the center of the circle. I haven’t lunged her in years, just get on and ride. She can be crabby at times, but a growl, brings the ears up with a “who me” look on her face. My young mare is not crabby towards humans, but tries to be alpha with the other horses. She is off track and does not lunge well. If I try to get her to do anything other than walk we have a rearing, walking on hind legs, bucking beast. I decided that I was not going to get hurt and she is fine when I ride her. I have always thought that Parelli thing about wiggling the lead in the horse’s face was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. I think if I were you, I would enlist the help of a trainer for a little bit to see if they assist you in figuring out how to proceed with this mare. The act of her coming at you with open mouth bothered me a bit. She totally doesn’t seem to respect you.

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=gloriginger;7795703]
It seems that you are riding this mare? Why are you longing her? I am confused as to the point of this session. Are you afraid to ride her so you work her on the ground?

I know you don’t want feedback on your longing technique, but I think a lot of what is your problem IS your technique. First, your line is too short, causing you to aimlessly walk around in a circle in the middle of the round pen. Your line should be long enough that you have a foot or two at the end, and hold that end in the other hand. The arm that has contact with the head should be elbow at your side so you have room to move. If you are at the end of your line, you have nothing to hold onto when and if she bolts. Your whip is up in the air, flapping around - quite honestly I think she is being pretty decent about that considering, although it does seem that she is kind of checked out in the beginning.

I agree that a shorter whip would be better for you, less awkward less flipping around. If you must use that one, have it low behind you, and use the blunt end to ask her to move. There are also times when you get ahead of her, and behind her, you would have your hips at a triangle between the shoulder and the hip. You stay there, moving your feet very little as she moves around you. A lot of your body language is very awkward and uncertain- which is why I question what the point of this session is- especially if you are already riding her…do you have problems with her under saddle too?

She looks like quite a nice mare, but mares do not put up with BS like a gelding will…honestly, at the point where she starting pinning her ears at you, I would have taken a deep breath, decompressed, talked to her, and then continued on with what ever I was hoping to accomplish.

Just remember that longing is not comfortable for a horse. Backing is not comfortable for a horse. Think of difusing your mare when she gets pissy- don’t escalate the drama, it will just get worse. Stop free longing her, if you are riding her you don’t need to be doing that.

Not trying to be a jerk, but I think you need to take ownership for your own problems in this situation. Try being softer with everything you do. Try soothing when she gets upset instead of getting your own back up. Most likely this will difuse her, and not get to the point of her charging you and biting you. My guess is that is what she is here to teach you- how to use the minimal amount of pressure to get the desired result.[/QUOTE]

I have been trying to keep her on some kind of work schedule while we figure out saddle fit issues. She is a different horse under saddle.

She’s mostly great like I said, when we aren’t having saddle fitting issues. (refusing to go past a walk at times) Per multiple people’s opinion on COTH about that, until we get that under control I have stopped riding her.

[pacific_jumper]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795596]

If anyone has any more ideas on how I can stand up to her better, I’m all ears.

Wanna give me a lunge lesson, Go ahead. I was trying to avoid the stabs because I KNOW that I’m not a pro a lunging. I never claimed to be. But since it’s the general consensus that I suck, I will heed all advice. Just remember, again, as I have said, at liberty, things go a lot differently. YES we still have these issues, but as far as where the line is and what my hand is doing, that is omitted at liberty. I’m more at her girth, she knows leading hand up means change direction, and following with lunge line means speed up, dropping down of line means hold steady, and a verbal whoah, or verbal request of walk means walk. The lunge screws me up. Again, not coordinated. I just felt it was safer to have her on the lunge when putting stuff on her for the first time so that I can control a blow up. (which, pertaining to the junk, she did not have)…[/QUOTE]

You’ve already recieved a lot of really great advice here, and anything I would add would just be repeatative. I know it sounds harsh to hear, but I’m sure the majority of us (snarky comments aside) are just trying to help. I know it can be frusturating when you’re emotionally involved with a horse who is so challenging. I agree that the horse needs some professional work with someone experienced in handling dangerous horses before this spirals completely beyond your control.

On another note, I know you admit that your lunging technique is not the best. The holding of the lunge whip, and handling of the lunge line do need some work, although you already are aware of this. Just as it is difficult for a green rider to teach a green horse under saddle and vice versa, the same applies to lunging. Lunging is as much of an art, and requires just as much muscle memory as riding. Is there any way you could practice lunging a more experienced horse to hone in on your own skills? Perhaps there is an upper level pony club kid, or another experienced horse person in your area who could give you some advice and a horse to work with, so that you are more prepared to handle your own.

[Cherry]

Yeah, it’s not the horse… First of all, if you"re going to keep this horse you are going to have to change your attitude toward her! John Lyons said if you don’t think your horse can get better, it won’t.

I have this philosophy about horses: “If you can’t control your horse from the ground it won’t get any better when you get on their back!” I firmly believe that! Comes from years of manditory “Grooming and Showmanship” classes in 4-H!

Your attitude about your skills in lunging could use a reality check, as it seems you are finally willing to acknowledge. You need to be more “engaged”. You have a very smart horse there! I think some of it is she doesn’t see the point in running around in circles (I’m not a fan of lunging myself although I taught my TB mare to lunge, and well, but rarely used it). I wouldn’t say she is a dominant mare though–just smart…

How long have you had this mare? It doesn’t appear as though she trusts you. It can take from two to several years for a horse to build trust in its human–even with A.circuit riders.

One of the cardinal rules of training horses is: Don’t set your horse up for failure! Pay attention! Make it easy for the horse to do the right thing, and hard to do the wrong thing!

Don’t just send.this horse out for training–unless you change the way you are handling her you will have the same problem again when you get her back! Find someone who will come to your barn and train you to train her… If I lived closer I would offer to help you gratis.

Best of luck–she’s a lovely little horse!

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7795711]
You have had others tell you. So I will just agree with them. Your longeing technique is not just bad, it is dangerous. Whip over your shoulder which comes into play now and the with a loud snap. A loose flapping longe line. Standing directly in front of your horse and attempting to start her off with all sorts of loopy line.

Get thee to her shoulder, and don’t allow it to come back to you or get ahead of you. Put on a helmet and gloves. Slapping in the head only makes her quicker at dodging and head shy. Snapping the line at her to ask her to move in is counter productive and intuitive.

There are you tubes of good longing, sadly there are also youtubes of bad longeing too. Way too many bad ones. This one is basically quite correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffzllyMOx7E[/QUOTE]

I appreciate what you are saying. As I have said, I am not very coordinated and perhaps that enough should be reason not to lunge with a line.

When I try to send her out on the line, she’s trying to follow me, and I guess due to my miseducation I don’t know how to get her off my “back” so to speak and back into working.

[LittleMissBigTime]

Alright, let me start by saying, I guess the title of my post is inappropriate.
I have a bit of a foul mouth I guess.

In calling her a bitch some people have concluded that I “hate” my horse or think she’s not competent enough to grow from this, couldn’t be further from the truth. She’s smarter than many humans (including myself, I will admit) and while I think there are bumps that push us back some, I do not want to give up on her.

So wherever that came from, it’s not true.

She’s spoiled rotten and worried about more than some children. Which is why I turn here for helpful advice on how to continue and grow our relationship.

I recognize that my lunging sucks. It doesn’t need to be said over and over again.

I appreciate all the posts with helpful suggestions and will educate myself further.

I am looking for a trainer to help me to help her.

It hurts me to think that some of you believe I am uneducated and that what I am doing is dangerous. Perhaps I don’t understand my horses’ issue. I find it hard to believe that you same people had dealt with every type of issue or horse that exists. This happens to be a weak point for me. I apologize. I suppose I’ve had easy horses in the past.

[Abbie.S]

You need to stop lunging her for now. She won’t get worse from not working for a bit until you get your stuff worked out. If your ground and lunge skills are not up to par, they are not going to get better from consulting folks on the internet. You need a live person to show you. Because right now, the biggest issue is you are missing ALL the major signs your horse is giving you.

The hardest part of being a horseperson is where you’re at right now: REALLY admitting that you don’t know what you’re doing, you don’t know how to fix it, you don’t know how to read your horse, and you need to get help from someone who does. BTDT, have the t-shirt. You and your horse will get through it, if you recognize that you cannot learn this by yourself, find someone who is knowledgeable and absorb everything they say. This is not going to be a few week course and then you go back to what you did before: this is going to require you to change what you thought you knew and adapt a new way of thinking about things. Things will get better, but you have to be really ready to put the ego aside, to put your big girl panties on and become a willing student. I get the feeling from your posts that you are in a vulnerable place, and I think most of us understand that because we’ve been there ourselves, but please understand that you are in very real danger, with a horse who could truly hurt you.

Because I can pretty much guarantee that if you continue on with what you’re doing, you will get hurt.

I have a bit of a different read on this mare from the video you posted, although I have not seen your other threads. I agree she seems dominant, she is completely ignoring you, she knows you have no idea what you’re doing. But there is another aspect to this, I think: when you crack the whip or shake the lunge, she reacts negatively, but especially to the whip. Any kind of whip is an extension of yourself and your energy. Most people do not need a whip: they don’t know how to use it effectively and skillfully, and end up basically “yelling” at the horse with it. I don’t know what the purpose of the snapping of the whip was, whether you were meaning to correct a naughty behavior, whether it was a “get going forward” sort of deal, but it’s WAY too much. Your horse reacts to it by saying “F*** off! Why are you yelling at me!?” The head shaking is basically the horse’s way of saying “Go to hell”.

So while she may be dominant, and she may have a more aggressive personality, I’d say she is also pretty darn confused. She doesn’t know what you want, she isn’t getting clear direction on anything, you haven’t demanded her attention in any way and then all the sudden you come barging in with the whip and she goes “WHOA, what the hell!?”

I think this is less of an issue about coordination with the lunge and more of an issue of not knowing how to A) read what your mare is saying to you, and B) react appropriately. I truly hope you will spend the time and money it takes to bring in a professional who can help you both.

ETA: OP, we posted at the same time, but I really wanted to come back and say this: you need to find away to let the ego go. I know how hard it is, and I’ll happily share my story with you if you care to hear it, via PM. You’re getting the tough love from this group because no one wants to see someone get hurt by a horse. You are in a very real position to be hurt. We think you are “uneducated” because you are: you don’t know how to properly lunge, and you are missing cues your horse is giving you before she gets in your face. You are having trouble accepting that because, naturally, NONE of us want to feel like we don’t know what we are doing! :yes: But you will not make real progress unless you are open to being taught, open to saying “I don’t know” and open to the idea that what you learned, or think you learned, wasn’t correct.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=gloriginger;7795703]
I agree that a shorter whip would be better for you, less awkward less flipping around. If you must use that one, have it low behind you, and use the blunt end to ask her to move. There are also times when you get ahead of her, and behind her, you would have your hips at a triangle between the shoulder and the hip. You stay there, moving your feet very little as she moves around you.[/QUOTE]

Hm. I’ve been taught there are two methods of lunging and both are considered acceptable - one is where you basically do as described, forming a triangle with you positioned about halfway between horse’s hip and shoulder and basically pivoting in place, and the other (once described to me as the dressage way, but I dunno) you stand positioned more at the horse’s hip and walk in a small circle inside the horse’s circle - basically the idea is to keep yourself placed relative to the horse so you are driving from ‘behind’ with your body language and lunge whip as necessary.

In both cases you should be in control and not be being dragged or moved around by the horse, though. (I think one thing about the ‘dressage’ method was that it does allow you to put the horse on a larger circle without having a much longer lunge line, simply by enlarging the circle you’re walking yourself. So it gives you the ability to tailor things a bit to the abilities of the horse - younger or out of shape horse you might go larger for faster work, so the horse needs less bend and can stay balanced, etc.)