.

[netg]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795795]

It hurts me to think that some of you believe I am uneducated and that what I am doing is dangerous. Perhaps I don’t understand my horses’ issue. I find it hard to believe that you same people had dealt with every type of issue or horse that exists. This happens to be a weak point for me. I apologize. I suppose I’ve had easy horses in the past.[/QUOTE]

It hurts you a lot less than one of her hooves to your face would - and that’s your direction at the moment.

I’m very glad you’re looking for a trainer. We tend not to learn to the level you need to learn until it becomes necessary. We don’t know how she’ll react to different behavior on your part, and that’s why you need a pro there teaching you real time; you are uneducated and it IS dangerous. I do not believe you created this problem, but I believe you are not currently equipped with the tools to fix it. (I most definitely would not be, either!) That’s why you hire someone who does know how and can help.

I suspect this mare has a similar personality to my mare. There are certain cases where I have to stand up to her, but there are also times when I can’t push her too far or she will get unreasonably aggressive. She is generally a very sweet, kind mare - but is NOT a horse you should ever pick a fight with. I highly suspect your horse had someone pick fights regularly in her past. Now, asking your horse to respect your space and move off your body language isn’t picking a fight as long as you understand how to give her someplace to go instead of making her feel constrained. But you need someone with really good tact and timing to learn how to handle it.

I would let you longe my gelding or my mom’s mare and you’d have no problem - and your past longeing probably involved similarly simple horses to longe. You just need to learn more now, for this horse - and longeing her with the current relationship and level of understanding will make things worse instead of better.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=kdow;7795816]
Hm. I’ve been taught there are two methods of lunging and both are considered acceptable - one is where you basically do as described, forming a triangle with you positioned about halfway between horse’s hip and shoulder and basically pivoting in place, and the other (once described to me as the dressage way, but I dunno) you stand positioned more at the horse’s hip and walk in a small circle inside the horse’s circle - basically the idea is to keep yourself placed relative to the horse so you are driving from ‘behind’ with your body language and lunge whip as necessary.

In both cases you should be in control and not be being dragged or moved around by the horse, though. (I think one thing about the ‘dressage’ method was that it does allow you to put the horse on a larger circle without having a much longer lunge line, simply by enlarging the circle you’re walking yourself. So it gives you the ability to tailor things a bit to the abilities of the horse - younger or out of shape horse you might go larger for faster work, so the horse needs less bend and can stay balanced, etc.)[/QUOTE]

The first method is the method espoused by Col. Alois Podhajsky of the Spanish Riding School (how dressage can you get?) in “Complete Training of the Horse and Rider”, and one I have used for many years. I have used in on greenies, OTTBs, and retreads. The advantage of the pivot is tha your elbow always stays with a bend, allowing give and take, and a 2nd chance against being yanked off your feet.

[LittleMissBigTime]

[QUOTE=netg;7795824]
It hurts you a lot less than one of her hooves to your face would - and that’s your direction at the moment.

I’m very glad you’re looking for a trainer. We tend not to learn to the level you need to learn until it becomes necessary. We don’t know how she’ll react to different behavior on your part, and that’s why you need a pro there teaching you real time; you are uneducated and it IS dangerous. I do not believe you created this problem, but I believe you are not currently equipped with the tools to fix it. (I most definitely would not be, either!) That’s why you hire someone who does know how and can help.

I suspect this mare has a similar personality to my mare. There are certain cases where I have to stand up to her, but there are also times when I can’t push her too far or she will get unreasonably aggressive. She is generally a very sweet, kind mare - but is NOT a horse you should ever pick a fight with. I highly suspect your horse had someone pick fights regularly in her past. Now, asking your horse to respect your space and move off your body language isn’t picking a fight as long as you understand how to give her someplace to go instead of making her feel constrained. But you need someone with really good tact and timing to learn how to handle it.

I would let you longe my gelding or my mom’s mare and you’d have no problem - and your past longeing probably involved similarly simple horses to longe. You just need to learn more now, for this horse - and longeing her with the current relationship and level of understanding will make things worse instead of better.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.
Well put. I guess in a sense me and my mare have a similar personality. When we feel threatened we come out with fists up ready…

I acknowledge that I need help, and a better understanding. Now comes the task of trying to find someone who will not only help her, but me. It’s a shame that so much ill work has been done to her (presumably through the “parelli training” she was sent away for before I owned her) because she is such a smart animal and takes to things so quickly. I honestly didn’t know that I would be taking on a horse with these issues when I got her. I had ridden her for the last year on and off before ownership, and she had been sent to the “dressage/parelli” trainer twice and also sold and returned once (not due to attitude, so the buyer says. it was a daughter who became disinterested with riding-they didn’t want their money back) before she fell into my hands. I never got into the nitty gritty roundpen routine with her until it was necessary to (bingo) and on came the routine that you saw at the end of the video. The last owner (who owns the place I keep her at) told me that this was why she went to the parelli trainer; and each time returned re-educated. She showed me the few parelli games that she (BO) knew how to do, and told me if she gave me trouble to do those. Well, as you can tell from the video, I DONT do the parelli games when she gets this way, because A I don’t understand them, and B she gets more aggressive when I do that.

It’s disheartening because I rode her for the better part of a year once a week and loved her to death. She was a greenie, but smart and sane under saddle. In the past 5 months that I’ve now officially owned her, I’ve had issues with saddle fit which in turn caused a lack of ability to get her to move forward past a walk under saddle, heat/hormone issues, and this. All I try to do is make her feel her best and be her best.

I promise I’m finding a trainer…might take awhile but I’ll try.

Oh and a while back someone mentioned that a few weeks off won’t really do anything to her…While that’s true, I spent the better part of 5 months building up enough stamina and muscle to be ridden on a 4 day schedule each week and I would hate to revert back to a muscle lacking horse in the time it takes me to fix the saddle problems. She is already losing newly gained muscle over her shoulder area.

[gloriginger]

[QUOTE=kdow;7795816]
Hm. I’ve been taught there are two methods of lunging and both are considered acceptable - one is where you basically do as described, forming a triangle with you positioned about halfway between horse’s hip and shoulder and basically pivoting in place, and the other (once described to me as the dressage way, but I dunno) you stand positioned more at the horse’s hip and walk in a small circle inside the horse’s circle - basically the idea is to keep yourself placed relative to the horse so you are driving from ‘behind’ with your body language and lunge whip as necessary.

In both cases you should be in control and not be being dragged or moved around by the horse, though. (I think one thing about the ‘dressage’ method was that it does allow you to put the horse on a larger circle without having a much longer lunge line, simply by enlarging the circle you’re walking yourself. So it gives you the ability to tailor things a bit to the abilities of the horse - younger or out of shape horse you might go larger for faster work, so the horse needs less bend and can stay balanced, etc.)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that totally makes sense, and would be more of a natural progression to longlining…

For the OP I was trying to let her know that she is moving around inconsistently - getting in front of the horse and behind the horse, which sends mixed signals…but if she is more comfortable moving around, the second method you descrbed might be more natural/comfortable for her. I still wonder if she needs a longer line though–if taking some line in both hands, she might be a bit too close to her mare?

[netg]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795887]

Oh and a while back someone mentioned that a few weeks off won’t really do anything to her…While that’s true, I spent the better part of 5 months building up enough stamina and muscle to be ridden on a 4 day schedule each week and I would hate to revert back to a muscle lacking horse in the time it takes me to fix the saddle problems. She is already losing newly gained muscle over her shoulder area.[/QUOTE]

It takes 3 weeks to lose fitness, but also once they’ve gained the muscle it’s way easier to put back on than develop in the first place.

My mare has heat discomfort issues, and we’ve found a treatment which helps her most of the time, but she ended up going unridden basically for months as we were dealing with that, then a cosmetic injury to her face meaning we couldn’t bridle her, then my schedule issues w/ a new job, then weather not cooperating. She is quickly picking right back up, more fit and stronger than she was before already, and appreciative of the time off apparently, as mentally she’s better than ever. I know it seems terrible, but a few weeks off really isn’t as big a problem as you think!

[JustJump]

Why is she such a bitch? Need some things to work with her on to get over this.

It’s really interesting because after a full workout if I stop, drop my eye, turn to the side, she will walk up to me, and then begins me being able to walk around with her following me.

Every text book says that’s me establishing that I am the herd leader.

She is not being a bitch. She’s a HORSE. She’s acting like a HORSE who is being irritated (as opposed to trained) and she is attempting to express it and rid herself of the irritation (you).

Since you think you don’t “need” and so “don’t want” a lesson on longeing, I’ll confine my advice to encouraging you to stop using ‘self help’ texts to try to learn something that apparently you have very little aptitude for, and go takes actual lessons from a qualified trainer (not a Parelli trainer).

I find it ironic that so many of those who enthusiastically embrace “natural horsemanship” are incredibly unlikely to actually BE truly “natural” horsemen.

[Vesper_Sparrow]

Netg gives good advice in post #41. I had to acknowledge this week that I couldn’t deal with a particular issue I have been having with my mare this week and asked my trainer for help. I was holding my own for a few days but then found my mare had completely outclassed me (she is super smart and quick to take advantage of any hesitancy on my part).

I would say don’t worry so much about the discipline the trainer works in (aside from not using a Parelli person, but you already know that!), but look for the most experienced and best horseperson you can find.

When you are able to lunge her (and it sounds like you aren’t now), I find trotting poles are great for building and maintaining condition and also require the horse to pay attention to what they are doing.

Good luck! She is a gorgeous mare!

[Abbie.S]

[QUOTE=LittleMissBigTime;7795887]

Oh and a while back someone mentioned that a few weeks off won’t really do anything to her…While that’s true, I spent the better part of 5 months building up enough stamina and muscle to be ridden on a 4 day schedule each week and I would hate to revert back to a muscle lacking horse in the time it takes me to fix the saddle problems. She is already losing newly gained muscle over her shoulder area.[/QUOTE]

This was me who said this, although someone else may have echoed the same sentiment.

I think this comes down to priorities and viewpoint. I can tell you that, from the video you posted, your mare is not gaining positive muscle tone if all she does is go around with her head up and back inverted. She may be “gaining muscle”, sure, but it isn’t going to helpful for her under saddle.

Yeah, it sucks to think you’re going backwards. But if you can look at this not as taking a step back, but beginning something new, it might help you gain perspective on what’s actually going on. At this point, the saddle fitting issues don’t matter. If you want to get this mare back to a good place, as a willing partner, and do this right, you need to let go of your own goals, priorities and aspirations. You need to drop the ego, take yourself out of the equations and start anew.

It’s a learning curve, for sure. It’s hard. We all struggle with it. You need to look at this horse as a whole, and prioritize what is important: do you want to continue down a path of working with a horse as you have been, who dislikes you, who has no respect for you, who would just as soon bite or kick you? All at the cost of a few months of muscle tone? Or would you rather set aside the riding and fitness for now, and get yourself and your mare educated, so that when the time comes to ride and begin the fitness process, you are in a much better, happier and more knowledgeable place?

Only you can answer that question. What I hear right now are excuses to continue doing the same thing you’ve been doing. You’ll have to decide what’s important to you.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;7795885]
The first method is the method espoused by Col. Alois Podhajsky of the Spanish Riding School (how dressage can you get?) in “Complete Training of the Horse and Rider”, and one I have used for many years. I have used in on greenies, OTTBs, and retreads. The advantage of the pivot is tha your elbow always stays with a bend, allowing give and take, and a 2nd chance against being yanked off your feet.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t say it was The Dressage Way, just that someone had described the two methods to me that way. Given that within dressage you have things like the French school and the German school, it is entirely possible that one group of folks would consider something the way you do it with dressage, and another think something completely different. (I have a suspicion that some dressage folks enjoy squabbling with each other, to be honest. )

Neither method was presented to me as bad, either. Just different tools for the toolbox.

[Capall]

I have not read all the replies. But one thing you keep saying that keeps standing out to me “She keeps catching me off guard”

You cannot let her catch you off guard. You have to be on and aware every moment with her. You have to be white on rice with her. You need a good trainer to work with you with her on the ground.

I had a very bitchy mare. It took TIME. lots of it. It took diligence. It took weeks of not riding but spending every second I could with her leading her everywhere and working with her. I always had a stud chain and a dressage whip. If she got in my space, she backed up several paces. Over. and over. and over. and over. I never had to haul off on her, but I had to pay attention to everything she did. I started noticing patterns and I could practically read her mind. Without even looking at her I could anticipate her move and stop it before it started. I used the dressage whip for quick corrections, or to remind her to keep her body where I wanted it. I never smacked her hard with it, but enough to make her respect it when she was really naughty. I also used body language and growling, even baring my teeth at her to establish that I was the dominant.

I could lead that mare practically everywhere, in any condition and she’d follow calmly at my shoulder. I didn’t ever have to use a stud chain on her again after that initial ground-work bootcamp. She became my best friend and would do anything for me (unless it involved paper, but that’s a whole 'nuther story :lol: )

eta: By backing up I don’t mean the parelli way, I mean her at my shoulder, me holding line and backing her up while I backed as well, or I would angle slightly toward her. No rope shaking or chain jerking. I had an excellent area I could do this on a driveway with no obstacles. When we got that driveway down, we went to the neighbors… who had quite the menagerie of weird animals in her pastures (llamas, alpacas, emus, pot-belly pigs… stuff like that) and when we got THAT down, she could go pretty much anywhere!

[kdow]

[QUOTE=gloriginger;7795911]
Yeah, that totally makes sense, and would be more of a natural progression to longlining…

For the OP I was trying to let her know that she is moving around inconsistently - getting in front of the horse and behind the horse, which sends mixed signals…but if she is more comfortable moving around, the second method you descrbed might be more natural/comfortable for her. I still wonder if she needs a longer line though–if taking some line in both hands, she might be a bit too close to her mare?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree. In the video the OPs body language reads as confusing to me, as does the use of the lunge whip. (Both ways I was taught, if you had a whip you used it to complete the triangle, not held it over your shoulder. You might have it rather far behind the horse if he doesn’t need a lot of “go” but it is still there. I am hardly a lunging expert, though, so I dunno. But the over the shoulder thing in this case seems to result in the whip being used often essentially at two volumes, off and ON!!! which I can easily see some horses not being fond of. As someone else said “why are you suddenly yelling at me? You didn’t ask!”)

I also noticed that the OP moving around looks kind of lazy (to clarify, I am not saying she is lazy, just that her body language reads to me as sort of “yawn, round and round we go” rather than focused on and working with the horse) and didn’t change much relative to the gait of the horse, which meant at least a couple of times during the canter the horse ended up pulling the line tight pretty fast, which is also a contradictory signal - go but don’t go! If you use the method I was shown where you move around, you’d better be prepared to move your feet if you need to. Asking the horse to canter? You don’t want to be running, but you’re likely to be doing a brisk walk/march to keep up and match the horse’s energy. (And you pick a method and stick to it, you don’t waffle between the two in the same session. With a greenie I’d probably just pick one method entirely and only do that until the horse had mastered it, to prevent confusion.)

I agree that at this point dropping the lunging seems a solid plan. Whatever is going on, it is creating teaching moments in which the horse learns she can try to be nasty, and generally the best thing to do is to avoid creating those moments in the first place if you are not 100% ready to deal with them. (Possibly 110%.)

If you have to do more work once the saddle fitting issue is sorted out to get her back fit, oh well. You work with the cards you’re dealt.

[RugBug]

OP: to make you feel a little better…I lost my mare’s right lead canter a few weeks ago. Like completely gone. 10 year old mare would not pick up the right lead for me. It was humiliating, to say the least. But is was a pattern I should’ve picked up on and realized that Ms. Smart Mare would take advantage of.

Her right lead is her difficult one and I was accepting mediocre canter departs from her. The departs kept getting worse and worse, with her throwing herself to the right and simply not going anywhere. After a few attempts, I could usually get her up into the canter, but it was a process. Fast forward after a few weeks of that and she decided she didn’t need to canter at all. Sigh. I was in my jumping lesson and we literally had to change plans. I put my trainer on her and she re-established that yes, in fact, Ms. Mare did know how to canter on the right lead…without all the historionics. I didn’t get back on her that day. She’s too smart and if I didn’t get the canter it would be B-A-D.

Trainer rode her a few more times after. I put on my big spurs and my big girl breeches, stopped feeling sorry for Ms. Mare and lo and behold, we once again have a right lead canter with a pretty decent canter depart.

Horses have a way of humbling us all. Just take it in stride and you will improve and be able to look back on this as a huge learning curve. I’m thankful that my mare while very smart is also very kind and sweet. I’ve dealt with bossy horses and they take a lot more energy, but it can be done.

I do worry a bit for your safety at the moment. I don’t like that she wants to come after you when your back is turned on her. That’s why I’m persistently pushing real NH. your space is sacred. She doesn’t come into it unless invited. You move her feet, not the other way around. Get the basics figured out and I bet your smart mare changes her ways.

[MickMac]

So i read the first page of posts, there seems to be a general consensus which i agree with-- your body language is not saying “i am the leader” and the minute the horse gets a little witchy you appear visibly scared. scared riders and handlers are reactive in their responses instead of intentional and directive.
I think that part of you believes that if you are non-confrontational, you can “get through” a session. but that is to be passive and hope for the best, which is not how you should handle a horse. i used to collapse my core once i got a positive response from the horse i was riding, in an effort to be soft. of course that wasnt effective, and I wasnt being soft. same idea with your methodology here.

i dont know if anyone else mentioned this directly, but your horse is completely bored and ignoring you the entire time. even when she’s a witch, she flitted right back to being perked and alert, looking somewhere else. the entire time you lunged her, i didn’t see her ear flick towards you. she doesn’t see you as the boss. you need to understand that when she was “being fine” earlier i nthe video, you didn’t have her attention. she was unfocused. in that sense, you didn’t have any connection with her at any point in the video. she thought she was out for a jaunt, and it was her idea. the minute you brought her close to you, she became witchy, because it was the first time in the entire video where you requested her attention… but you still weren’t commanding her attention, so she attempted to cow you. I understand that lunging is your current choice of exercise, but that doesnt mean it has to be mindless circling. thats just asking for trouble. put poles down. ask for transitions. A LOT of transitions. get your horse listening to your voice commands, that would be a great start.

just a thought… work with someone like Jan Snodgrass who can help work through some of these focus-related, respect issues, from a behavioral/physiological perspective. there are a lot of relaxing techniques done while standing on the ground that really center an unfocused horse. once you have her attention, then you are in a position to ASK for something and keep the communication alive and well by continually bringing her focus back to you throughout your exercise session.

[IPEsq]

I agree you need to work on groundwork so that you can understand the body language that she will respond to nicely. Then, move back to the longe line and be at her shoulder to behind her, whip (if you use one) always pointed at her hip/butt. As for her Parelli background, remember that she has had a bunch of things waived in her face with this kind of “training.” I see a lot of people around here trying to do this, and most of the horses look scared/confused, because they backed up when mom told them to so why is she still yanking and waiving around my leadrope and flinging a whip at my face? A few seem to have done it for a while and appear to have a “whatever” attitude about it. These are the horses that are supposed success stories for Parelli work. I can just as easily see a horse (especially a sensitive mare) reacting by eventually saying enough is enough and striking back. So, keep that in mind when you longe and be extra careful not to do anything weird with the rope and no flailing at her face with the rope, your hands, or whip. Work at her shoulder and hip level, and get someone to teach you how to longe and how to ask a horse to change the shape of the circle (come in toward you, move out away from you) and respond to requests to change gait. I think getting some help with the right approach that doesn’t scare her will really help her come around so that she won’t scare you.

[TullyMars]

Seems like some finer principles in handling the longing equipment may be in order. The technique is kind of scary and I wonder why the whip would be carried up and over the shoulder? Hope that you get it worked out, but agree that you need professional help. Good luck!

[Ponyplusaninch]

If you get the chance to, I would see about taking a lunge lesson but use a different, less dominant horse. When I first started lunging, I was in the worse position–green young rider with green, big, clumsy horse. It was a nightmare. When I found myself in a position to lunge another horse whom I knew was significantly better behaved than my own, I pounced on the opportunity and begged for a lesson, and it was really, really enlightening (as were the following few lunge lessons I had). I’m still no expert, but I’m much more confident lunging a variety of horses in a variety of get-ups.

I wish you luck; I truly do believe that more secure and confident you become in your lunging, the better the mare will be. Like a naughty child, she just seems to be testing you whenever your guard wavers and takes a mile when you give an inch.

[Vesper_Sparrow]

A bit off-topic, but, Rugbug, thanks for that story, your mare sounds very similar to mine. I taught my mare to canter 2 metres inside the rail, but not along it when I asked her to, in just in one training session just by not being as demanding as I should have been. It took me about 5 sessions to get her back to cantering along the rail properly. My gelding will also take advantage of a weakness, but it’s more like a momentary joke for him–ha, ha, I can take advantage of my rider–and soon he’s back on the right path. My mare seems to have a very long memory and to be more of a strategic thinker.

[Bicoastal]

Kudos to sticking this thread out.

I’m scared for you that if you try to “stand up to her,” via internet advice, you are going to get hurt.

Please be careful.

[Bicoastal]

Let me quickly add, can you do other stuff?

Ask around COTH for on-the ground-help. In the meantime, could you avoid this situation and work in other ways?

Trail riding on foot/in-hand, bareback riding if saddle is a problem, obstacle courses, trailering, something besides round pen or lunge.

[merrygoround]

Most of the advice, especially those who tell her to get help with longeing is right on. Her problem is being careful in the wrong way.

I remember well my first longeing session. I was given an obstinate pony with a habit of stopping and facing me. Thanks to a good coach and a lot of practice I learned to place that whip. Of course , before that I did lot of restarting. :lol: