.

[IPEsq]

I watched the end of the video more closely and have this to add–

At the end when she is being snaky, in addition to flinging the rope at her, you also grab the halter and punish her in the face. And, while you are even with her head, you are trying to get her to go forward. Move away from the horse towards what you want to be the inside of your circle with your head down (drop your chin but keep your eyes aware) and shoulder to the horse (so you can still see her if she follows). Keep trying to move towards a place that is center of the circle but behind her shoulder level. When you have good distance between you and her (being mindful not to have a bunch of slack in the line), start moving towards her butt with your whip pointed towards her butt, sort of parallel to the ground. If she continues to swing to face you, continue to walk to follow her butt until she begins to walk on. Then, being in your non-threatening position, you can push her out to a bigger circle and let the line go some as she moves out.

In your video, you either move further in front of her, or you are holding her face (which we already see is threatening to her) while pointing the whip at her flanks. So, even if she did move, where would she go but to continue to spin and face you? Her reaction is also to go backwards and face you, so yanking on her face is the wrong correction–this would maybe be ok to try to get her attention if she was dragging you off into the sunset. Putting your hand up by her face to grab the halter after she already threatened to bite you seems like you are asking for it!

You can work on this stuff on the ground with no whip and just a longer lead rope to learn the difference between threatening in her face body language and kind body language that makes mare want to follow you around.

As I said earlier, it may be best for a competent trainer to show you this in person. And, I agree with the poster who said to try it out on one that’s easy to longe first.

[wood_snake]

Your mare is lovely and my favorite color.

In my first barn job I saw several horses who came in for retraining after a ‘natural horsemanship’ training experience. They had learned the only safe place was in next to the person lunging. They were all dominant, clever animals who were willing to act aggressively. Your mare is behaving just like those horses.

I am NOT going to give you an explanation of how to handle this. It took skill, timing and bravery. It is above your pay grade at the moment.

Don’t feel bad about this. Learning to handle horses in difficult and dangerous situations is a lifetime occupation. You are going to come away from this learning experience with so much new knowledge.

You need a trainer to help you. You need them now. I’m sorry to be so firm but no excuses about how it will take you time to find one. It will not. Do your research for 2 or 3 days, choose one and start working with them.

This is not something you are going to be able to sort out without help. It IS something that can be fixed and it doesn’t take a ton of time. Your relationship with your mare will become much happier, peaceful and fun.

Good luck. This will work out with appropriate help.

[Soaponarope]

Your horse is really cute! I think you should get a trainer to teach you to lunge. Don’t lunge her until your skills have improved. She’s super cute so don’t get frustrated. Right now the line is very lax between you and the whip up in the air which could be making her nervous. On the other hand you have no tension on the lunge line and she is just lolling around. She needs clear signals and to be connected to you through the line. You want to have more of the line left over; there is too much loose line between you. But this is something you need to learn by watching and doing with a good trainer. I know you do not want a lunge lesson but there is no shame in admitting that you need one. Especially with such a cute mare you want to give her the best help you can.

[enjoytheride]

I agree with an above poster. There is no way I’d get nice and close to a horse that threatened me like that. I’d be moving her butt off post haste as fast as it could go. An important part of lunging is body language and she’s going out on the lunge line because she’s a good horse and that’s what she’s supposed to do and you have a whip but she doesn’t do it because she respects you. Do you understand the difference? She should show as much respect for you at the end of the lunge line as up close.

I have a mare now that is distracted and frantic on the lunge line. I’m not at all surprised when she’s distracted and frantic 2 feet away from me.

There’s a big difference between koolaid drinking parelli followers and a dang good NH trainer.

Your mare is stunning and you are at a crossroads. Continue the way you are and she will be unrideable and hard to handle. Get help and she will be unbeatable at shows. Seriously. With guidance your mare will win a ridiculous amount.

[CourtneyANYC]

I wasn’t going to comment but since it’s clear that you are becoming dejected with some of the other comments (which I believe are coming from a good place - posters that are worried about you and the horse, etc.), I will say something quickly.

I once bought a horse that did not exhibit nasty behavior on the ground, but try to get on and he was DANGEROUS. He was sweet and smart and willing and then DANGER!!! I hired a NH trainer to help when it became clear I was over my head. She did a great job with the groundwork, but she did do some of the Parelli stuff like shaking the line, games, rhythmic motion, etc. I can tell you (in retrospect) that in my experience with a horse that responds VERY well to most training - that s**t doesn’t work.

The practical stuff that she did worked wonders. The fancy gamey stuff that she did caused confusion in a horse that was actually trying really hard to understand. I enlisted the help of a cowboy friend - a Buck type, not a Pat type - and within 3 hours the behavior stopped completely. He taught me what to do, how to position myself, etc. Turned out that my scary, dangerous horse was TERRIFIED from prior experiences, and he needed to start over completely with clearly defined rules.

Don’t be discouraged. It didn’t take long. Moreover, I’m a good hand and a good rider with great horses. It was a bit of a blow to learn that I was not capable of working this horse through the problem, and that my efforts to get him through it actually exacerbated it. That was a gutting realization! But I learned SO much from the experience that I can’t imagine going through my horse life having never known those things. So instead of being down on yourself, look at this as a very specific set of skills that you’ve yet to learn - like teaching a horse to bow or piaffe. Normal people don’t get upset when they can’t teach a horse to piaffe because that’s something most normal people needn’t teach. Don’t get upset with yourself because you don’t know exactly how to behave in this situation. Many people don’t, and you will learn.

Last two comments from me:

1. Your rope halter is fitted much too loose. Watch this video for fitting instructions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b73oG9wW8ME

2. You’ve gotten a lot of advice about lunging so I won’t repeat those comments. However, the horse is moving at a pretty brisk pace and you continually cluck at her. You keep repeating the command for what she’s already doing. She builds speed, then bucks, then starts to get irritated. If she’s doing what you asked, quit asking.

Good luck! In my opinion you don’t have a long way to go before you have a really nice horse. She’s just confused. Hang in there!

[drkarins]

OP…

1. Don’t give up!
2. While I think folks have given you some wonderful tips, I agree with many posters who recommended you stop working alone and instead: Get someone more experienced to help you and your mare, you will both be better for it in the end. There has to be someone within sort of reasonable distance who is competent to help out.
3. Stay simple. Aim for success. Take baby steps to get there.
4. Be careful, your safety above all else.
5. If you love your mare (which I am sure you do!), do this for her. If something happens to you and she has this behavior in her, she is a danger to humans. This makes her vulnerable to much badness. Don’t let her be a bad egg!
6. I commend your bravery for posting the video and your struggles on this forum. While the feedback is I am sure not feeling so hot right now, most posts clearly have your and your horse’s concern at heart.
7. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out. She is an adorable mare!

[17handponyrider]

I understand

Because you are taking a lot of heat, I am going to confess. I too have a horse that is wonderful to ride but scary to lunge. I was having some soundness issues that could possibly be helped by lunging. I took a month and lunged him in a Pessoa rig. He built topline and moved better and his dressage work was incredible. I don’t lunge him anymore. I am afraid. He even backed off my dressage instructor. He comes at you and he is not afraid of the whip. Once I am on his back, he is an angel. On the lunge he is the devil. I won’t do it. He has a very dominate nature and I guess thinks it is ok to challenge me when he can look me in the eye.

I also am a bit worried for you about this saddle fitting issue. I believe you said that your horse would not even work at all because of it. I am not saying that is not possible and I have had horses react to poor saddle fit, but that seems extreme. I might look in to problems that would make a poor fitting saddle more painful, like kissing spines. It just seems like a pretty severe reaction. Of course if the horse has kissing spines then you might need to learn to lunge her.

[Ticker]

Your mare is very very nice. She was a little snarkey at the end, but nothing that didn’t look more like a small complaint about working more.
Anyway, a young colt I had charged me during our first lunging session, with teeth bared and coming off the ground to stomp me. That was actually a bit dangerous. I solved the problem immediately by opening an umbrella in his face as he came in to take a bite. He was loose and took off across the arena snorting with his tail up. The look on his face was priceless. I tried to provoke him into attacking me again, which amounted to me sending him forward, but he never tried it again…never ever.
I don’t know what training program you would put that under, I call it …‘umbrella training’

My advice is, leave her loose, buy an umbrella. Keep the umbrella with you after her ‘introduction’ if she gets cranky when doing ground work, even if you never use it again like that. You can always use a ‘reminder’ shake of the CLOSED umbrella.
My additional advice would be to keep a small grain treat in your pocket to reward her when you change directions. Let her stand and enjoy her treat for a minute before doing more work.

Do not use an umbrella with a horse that is on a lunge line. This should only be used with a horse at liberty.
Good luck!

[europa]

FWIW I think you mare looks funny in the hind end. She has trouble maintaining a canter and is often cross cantering. There is something WONKY going on there. I would check hocks and stifle. Personally, I hear people saying that the training is maybe suspect but after viewing the video that behavior is really just not acceptable. A horse should never be aggressive like that towards a human. It is one thing to be food protective and give a dirty look but that is beyond just a warning of leave me alone. That is active aggression.

[Abbie.S]

[QUOTE=Ticker;7797157]
Your mare is very very nice. She was a little snarkey at the end, but nothing that didn’t look more like a small complaint about working more.[/QUOTE]

“Snarky” is a horse that pins its ears at you when you place his food dish in front of him. The OP’s mare, each time the OP turned her back, got lighter in her front end, attempted to invade the OP’s space with pinned ears and an open mouth. That is NOT snarky. That is the beginning of an attempt to seriously harm the human involved.

Your story about the young colt suggests you have either very low protective instincts or have no idea what a dangerous horse looks like.

[Ticker]

Abby S, we all find different situations to be ‘dangerous’ based on our life experiences. A stallion owner friend of mine, who has more skill and talent than I could achieve in ten lifetimes, rarely bats an eye at horse behavior that is beyond my abilities to deal with. I doubt he would do anything more than chuckle at this, if he could be bothered to even watch the video. I find behaviors dangerous based on where my skill set meter is pointing, not where your skill set meter is pointing.

I didn’t see anything on the OPs video that I haven’t dealt with before, and therefore, it didn’t make me bat an eye.
But, that said, this is a problem for the OP because the OP has not dealt successfully with this problem…yet.

About my colt, he did raise my blood pressure a bit, so I sat down, made a plan and executed it. That’s how I solve problems.
I will add, that this colt went on to his stallion preparation and I worked him thru the jump chutes on voice commands and hand signals to return to me.

Anyway, I was hoping the OP would find value in my post, as it was meant to offer something different to try. I forgot, what was the point of your post again? That I don’t find the mares behavior dangerous or that I offered a suggestion based on my real life experience? Wait, I have it, I have no sense of self preservation or I don’t know what a dangerous horse is.

Well, if it makes you feel better…" OH NO , the mare is horribly dangerous, run for the hills while I hide her in my barn

Ps…Snarky, is not a word I normally use, but I believe
Someone used ‘snaky’ and I read ‘snarky’… so …if I used it incorrectly…oh well.

[Abbie.S]

Oh, please…

If a colt charging at your with bared teeth and every intent to seriously hurt you doesn’t seem dangerous to you, well, dear, you’re something else.

Having the understanding to deal with dangerous situations does not invalidate the danger. It does not make it less real. It just means that the situation is much more likely to turn in a positive direction, and the horse is much more likely to turn into a productive member of society. But it doesn’t mean the situation isn’t dangerous. Right now, the OP does not have that understanding necessary to diffuse a dangerous situation. The vast majority of folks here agree that the OP should be seeking someone with more understanding to help educate her and her horse, before she gets injured. I think that’s pretty sage advice. I find telling her to turn her horse, who has threatened to bite and kick at her, loose in a pen with an umbrella to be anything but sage advice, but hey, not my problem, I suppose…

As far as I’m concerned, someone who has dealt with dominant/aggressive horses successfully would be more aware of how poorly the situation could turn out for someone not equipped to handle it, such as the OP. Hence my problem with your suggestion based on “real life experience”.

But as for what you do with your horses, in the immortal words of Butler from Gone With the Wind: frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=french fry;7795538]
In my first viewing I missed the part where you dropped the lunge line around her front legs and hit her in the face.

You need a pro.[/QUOTE]

This^^^
One of the cardinal rules of longeing is that the longeline never touches the ground. Also the whip on the shoulder is incorrect and reinforces being passive. Also when she cuts in, you step back. You should be moving forward into her space BEFORE she reaches that spot in the circle, so it forces her back out.
You don’t have a bitchy horse but one that is confused and pissed off. You aren’t being a good leader so she is doing what she wants, and getting pissed at the lack of clearness and fairness.

You do need someone to show you how to work with her AND longe a horse correctly. Or you will get hurt.

[kookicat]

You’ve had lots of good advice on dealing with your girl, so I’m going to stick to purely equipment suggestions. You’d be so much better off with a longer line minus the popper jobbie on the end. It will give you more freedom to send your girl out, and having more line to adjust means you’re not as likely to pop her in the face. (And honestly, watching that I was worried she was going to break your hand.)

Put a helmet and gloves on. I never lunge without them.

[Hilary]

OP if you are still reading, a couple of things stood out to me - I have an alpha mare who didn’t have much of a job until she was 9. We are still sorting out who’s agenda gets priority on any given day.

First, lunging is HARD. It takes a great deal of coordination and timing as well as a somewhat cooperative horse. So do not beat yourself up too much about your lunging abilities. The people who are good at it, make it look totally easy, and it’s not. Especially when the horse is not well trained.

The very first bit of the video she stops to sniff the pile of manure. You don’t ask her to move on for a long time. When she is with you, she’s on your clock, and stopping for a sniff is her blowing you off. That sets the tone for the whole video. She can sniff piles for the other 23 hours in her day. When she’s working? She is listening to you.

She seems to be fairly amenable to what you’re asking but she is not at all precise about it - she cuts in, she pulls you off your feet etc. She is not tuned in to “what would you like me to do next” with the answer of “yes ma’am, right away”. Its’ more of “yeah yeah, trot, ok fine, in a minute” This also means that you need to be more precise and always on the ball when you are working with her - you both struck me as very casual in what you were doing.

I don’t think she’s that bad but she’s got your number. Little things like walking in your space - does she crowd you when you are leading her? Don’t let her.

You will have to be pretty vigilant about manners for a while and I suspect once she realizes you do mean it (and you do not need to be harsh, just very consistent and firm, yes, I asked you to move over, yes, right now, )and you stick with it, she will be less aggressive to you.

[tua37516]

I agree with a large portion of advice that says seek a trainer etc, so I won’t add more there other than to say that I suspect that even though she may be sweet and friendly on the ground, she may not have the respect for you that you think she does. I had a young one with some fear/pain issues who would try to KILL you when upset, but was normally very friendly on the ground and easy to ride/handle. However, when I started to do ground work (back, halt, head down, forward, halt, etc) I got a lot more respect. Horsie could not step one foot past where I asked them to stop, otherwise back up and repeat. It was simple and repetitious EVERY. TIME. I handled the horse for about a month. The horse then would halt when I halted and in fearful situations would settle or allow themselves to be corrected with a sharp word or small smack. Lots of trust building and establishing yourself as the leader.

However, what I did want to say is that if you are:
a) Having a saddle fit issue
b) Pony can’t canter forward in a circle and stay on the same lead

Maybe you should consider chiro/lameness evaluation? She could be trying to tell you something overall in the big picture is uncomfortable. It may not be a lameness but it could be a WEAKNESS in the hind end. Consult with the pro about how to properly strengthen this weakness. Repeating a lunging routine where the horse isn’t building the right muscles won’t help you, and overfacing the horse with side reins when they don’t have the right level of fitness will only make her uncomfortable and create a situation like this one. I would recommend riding her and doing hill work, mostly walking and some light trotting and increasing from there.

[french_fry]

[QUOTE=tua37516;7799655]

However, what I did want to say is that if you are:
a) Having a saddle fit issue
b) Pony can’t canter forward in a circle and stay on the same lead

Maybe you should consider chiro/lameness evaluation? She could be trying to tell you something overall in the big picture is uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with this. If I remember correctly the saddle that now doesn’t work at all was professionally fitted to the horse not that long ago, right? And suddenly it’s so wrong for her that her reaction is drastic enough to make you not ride her?

I’m not saying that saddle fit isn’t important (it is so important!) but if a poorly fitting saddle made horses totally unrideable there would be a lot more unrideable horses out there.

I have a feeling it’s a bigger issue than just saddle fit. Lamenes, we

[Cindyg]

@LittleMissBigTime;7795562

I have never been a fan of parelli, and am wondering if her constant challenge when I attempt what I was told to do, stems from her parelli “training”. It does seem to make steam blow from her ears so to speak, and was told it was because I was challenging her, and that it needed to be “broken”…

Last time I take parelli seriously.

It is so unfair to bring up Parelli in this discussion. Nothing that was going on in this video had anything remotely to do with Parelli.

The little bit of pissy-ness I saw would have been so easily handled by someone who understood Parelli.

And I’m not even a fan of Parelli. But that’s just an excuse.

Your mare is not a bitch.

[Justice]

I have seen some good Parelli people get good results. One of their key tenets is having the horse respect you and your space. I am not seeing that respect here. You have gotten good advice regarding lunging and getting help from a pro. I did think that the horse looked NQR in the video. It’s difficult to tell because of the way it’s filmed. I have ridden 100s of horses (I am old). I have never had a saddle fit issue that would cause a horse to not go. From the video, she doesn’t look like a difficult fit. This horse needs to go forward and move away from pressure. Hopefully I am just making up the physical stuff. The mare looks very sensitive, and assuming she is sound, looks like she could turn around quickly with a good program. In my experience, the more emotional the horse, the more they need very clear parameters regarding what is expected and what is acceptable. Good luck, op.

[Emily_amp_Jake]

I’ve always heard that you should start a horse lunging on a small circle (obvs. not exactly necessary if they have plenty of experience,etc.) and then let the circle get bigger gradually.

Perhaps you’ve already tried a smaller circle and it doesn’t help much. But this was just a thought I had from watching your video. She shouldn’t be at the end of the line if she’s not responding appropriately, but should still have some slack in the line. Again, this is just what I’ve personally heard/read, so I could be way off.

You’ve gotten a lot of great advice and I hope you’re able to get her lunging manners straightened out soon!