.

[Punkie]

I didn’t read the whole thread, but if you’re in Bradenton, take her up to Ocala and leave her with Frank Barnett for a month. If you’d like, I’ll PM you his number. He is, IMHO (and after having a crap ton of personal experience with him as well as watching him bring along and fix friend’s horses) heads and shoulders above everyone else for issues like this - and many, many, many other things as well.

I am also (most likely) completely wrong, but the way she’s coming through her hip, particularly going right, looks funky to me. Stifle perhaps? But as I said, I could be seeing things that just aren’t there.

[HealingHeart]

Bore, boring, bored. For 8 min you catch her with the whip over your shoulder like you are going fishing. Nothing said for 6 minutes as she doesn’t exist, just go round and round until I say enough. I suspect she is very intelligent and needs to be challenged, not “forced” like do this or else I will beat you with the whip. She looked bored, like a child in school that is highly intelligent and refuses to follow the normal teaching because he/she already knows the answer or the teacher hasn’t explained well enough why they are doing what they are doing. Do you do this all the time?

She challenged you at the end, cause you said, good girl, then told her to back out on the line and do it again…, why teacher, if I was good?

[Gumby80]

I was recently asked to work with a pony mare for a novice friend of mine. She was much worse than your horse: she wouldn’t lunge at all on a line or in a round pen, she’d just squeal like a tiny pig, and attempt to kick out at you with both hind feet whenever you asked her to do anything. Lovely.

Friend wasn’t prepared to send her to a proper trainer, so I ended up going the internet-guru-in-a-cowboy-hat route, which is not something I ever, ever thought I would do. Ever! I used Warwick Schiller, but good info from any other reputable horseman (Buck Brannaman, Tom Dorrance etc) I’m sure would be similar.

That sh*t worked. It WORKED. I couldn’t believe it. Pony ended up being the most quiet, respectful creature to do anything with, including lunging. And she was so much happier about life.

I agree that sending your horse to a real, live trainer is probably the best bet. But I think it would be well worthwhile to educate yourself on simple stuff as well, just like leading her properly (where a lot of problems with disrespectful horses start), keeping her out of your space, pressure and release and all that. Otherwise, a trainer might fix her, but she’ll just revert back to her old habits once she’s back with you.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

[visorvet]

Cute mare - just my type, snark and all! You have had a lot of advice about training and all that is great, but I am wondering if this mare has had a lameness exam at all? Although she seems willing to move forward fairly briskly, I don’t think I saw ANY normal canter strides in the section of the round pen that we can see. Mostly she was cross-cantering and I got the impression there may have been a couple of bucks on the near side (where we can’t really see her), making me wonder if she was doing that to swap leads behind. I have found that sharp intelligent mares are often more resentful/reactive about being asked to work through pain, even when the pain is not dramatic or obvious. I had a mare like this myself that really truly WAS kind of a b!tch all-around, so when things began to gradually get a bit worse while working I attributed it to training/behavioral issues and did many of the things people here are advising. I am a horse veterinarian and did not think she looked lame at all, yet this problem DID end up being a hock pain issue as determined with a comprehensive lameness exam. Like you, I had also thought for some time that saddle fit was the culprit.

The other thing that may support this with your mare is the timing of the behavior - she walks/trots/canters in both directions, and because she is a clever cookie she thinks she is done. Then you tell her she’s NOT done and has to work more, and that’s when she gets snarky. I am not saying this behavior should be tolerated, nor am I saying skip the behavioral stuff because this video clip alone is far from enough to be sure of anything. However, if she was my mare I would pause the training and do a thorough lameness exam with special attention to the hind end before I invested a lot of time and effort in leadership-type groundwork. When pain is the issue, submissive horses can often be trained or forced to work despite it (not that they should have to!) but horses like your mare (and mine) may simply become increasingly resentful and volatile. I would make sure the lameness vet is a very good one with lots of experience dealing with subtle lamenesses in sport horses - someone who specializes in lameness (vs a general equine vet) would be ideal.

Best of luck with your saucy mare! Her smarts and attitude are what may make her a stellar ride once she is working with you rather than against you. Don’t take the criticism too much to heart in a personal sense - you obviously care for your mare and are working to find a solution to the problem. The nice thing about a lameness issue is that the behavioral problem could vanish overnight if it is something simple like some minor arthritis that would respond to hock injections.

[visorvet]

Accidental duplicate…

[Trevelyan96]

OP - I applaud you for the courage you’ve shown in posting your video and asking for help. As you search for a good pro - also try to educate your eye on what good lunging form and clear aids should look like to your horse. A good place to start is here: http://www.art2ride.com/.

Wear a helmet and gloves! Start with basic ground training, with the priority being to teach her the cues to move out, then forward. Use a dressage whip - point to the girth area, and say ‘out’. If she doesn’t move away from the point of the whip, take a step forward and tap in the girth area until she steps away. Any movement away from the point of the whip gets her a good girl and a rest. Repeat on the other side. After a day of 2 of this, you’ll find that she’ll move out as soon as you point the whip toward her girth.

Once she learns out - teach her the cue for forward. Good lunging manners start with good leading manners. Read the Meredith Manor articles on ‘heeding’ here to give you an idea. http://www.meredithmanor.edu/features/articles/drm/heeding1.asp

It’s all about teaching them the right answer so they can succeed and know what’s expected. By paying attention to her and her reactions, you’ll quickly get a feel for when she knows/understands the cues your giving or if you may be confusing her.

IMHO - your mare is lovely. She doesn’t look mean - she looks frustrated. She’s throwing out answers to your inconsistent aids, and keeps getting the answer ‘no, that’s wrong.’

Most of all, don’t be discouraged. We all learn things as we need to know them, and in your case, you’ve just hit a steep spot on the learning curve, but nothing that’s not fixable once you get on the right track. Fortunately, most horses are very forgiving, and once we figure out what they need, they respond pretty quickly in the right direction.

[Trevelyan96]

[QUOTE=Abbie.S;7796001]
This was me who said this, although someone else may have echoed the same sentiment.

I think this comes down to priorities and viewpoint. I can tell you that, from the video you posted, your mare is not gaining positive muscle tone if all she does is go around with her head up and back inverted. She may be “gaining muscle”, sure, but it isn’t going to helpful for her under saddle.

Yeah, it sucks to think you’re going backwards. But if you can look at this not as taking a step back, but beginning something new, it might help you gain perspective on what’s actually going on. At this point, the saddle fitting issues don’t matter. If you want to get this mare back to a good place, as a willing partner, and do this right, you need to let go of your own goals, priorities and aspirations. You need to drop the ego, take yourself out of the equations and start anew.

It’s a learning curve, for sure. It’s hard. We all struggle with it. You need to look at this horse as a whole, and prioritize what is important: do you want to continue down a path of working with a horse as you have been, who dislikes you, who has no respect for you, who would just as soon bite or kick you? All at the cost of a few months of muscle tone? Or would you rather set aside the riding and fitness for now, and get yourself and your mare educated, so that when the time comes to ride and begin the fitness process, you are in a much better, happier and more knowledgeable place?

Only you can answer that question. What I hear right now are excuses to continue doing the same thing you’ve been doing. You’ll have to decide what’s important to you.[/QUOTE]

Well said!

[Silver_Silence]

[QUOTE=Gumby80;7810307]
I was recently asked to work with a pony mare for a novice friend of mine. She was much worse than your horse: she wouldn’t lunge at all on a line or in a round pen, she’d just squeal like a tiny pig, and attempt to kick out at you with both hind feet whenever you asked her to do anything. Lovely.

Friend wasn’t prepared to send her to a proper trainer, so I ended up going the internet-guru-in-a-cowboy-hat route, which is not something I ever, ever thought I would do. Ever! I used Warwick Schiller, but good info from any other reputable horseman (Buck Brannaman, Tom Dorrance etc) I’m sure would be similar.

That sh*t worked. It WORKED. I couldn’t believe it. Pony ended up being the most quiet, respectful creature to do anything with, including lunging. And she was so much happier about life.

I agree that sending your horse to a real, live trainer is probably the best bet. But I think it would be well worthwhile to educate yourself on simple stuff as well, just like leading her properly (where a lot of problems with disrespectful horses start), keeping her out of your space, pressure and release and all that. Otherwise, a trainer might fix her, but she’ll just revert back to her old habits once she’s back with you.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.[/QUOTE]
This X 100.

Warwick is the best ever at explaining anything. Ten thumbs up for him. Black & White, no nonsense. No gimmicks. No rainbows and butterflies or “games” for that matter.

He’s very matter of fact, and really gets how to explain what he’s doing in layman terms.

Can’t say enough good things about him.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=HealingHeart;7801478]
Bore, boring, bored. For 8 min you catch her with the whip over your shoulder like you are going fishing. Nothing said for 6 minutes as she doesn’t exist, just go round and round until I say enough. I suspect she is very intelligent and needs to be challenged, not “forced” like do this or else I will beat you with the whip. She looked bored, like a child in school that is highly intelligent and refuses to follow the normal teaching because he/she already knows the answer or the teacher hasn’t explained well enough why they are doing what they are doing. Do you do this all the time?

She challenged you at the end, cause you said, good girl, then told her to back out on the line and do it again…, why teacher, if I was good?[/QUOTE]

This what I noticed beyond the fumbling and lack of lunging skills which you are aware of already.

For the entirety of the video it was round and round and round. Pick a gait and more around and around. No visible breaks , no real purpose other then to let her spin around like a little top with out a purpose.

Lunging is a training tool. Every time you take a horse out and do something with it you are teaching it. Letting her zip around without purpose is teaching her …her job is to zip around not paying attention to you.

I suggest A ) get a trainer the best one you can afford. B) after some lunge lessons on an easier horse Treat lunging like a training aid. Work on transitions , pace and control.

I never lunge just to let them spin around aimlessly always even when its just to burn off some jet fuel they are working , just as if being ridden. They come out and are warmed up w/out gadgets attached , they work , and are cooled down just as if under saddle.

[Miss_Motivation]

Lots of good information for you here.

I watched your other videos and wonder what much more experienced COTH’ers than me would say. The jumping video? Your mare sticks her nose out and just kind of zig-zags around. She doesn’t go forward in a straight line, and her face is somewhat not connected to her body. Maybe more time on basics before jumping would help pull the package together.

You ride her quietly, she just seems like a bit of a ‘loose horse’ underneath you, as the saying goes.

The comments from others on her dropping her leads behind and so forth are interesting. When jumping she does the same thing, so she’s either so out of condition for the work that she can’t hold things together, or something hurts.

I spent extra time on watching your videos because your mare looks SO like one I had with the same problems. She was a gorgeous buckskin half-Arabian, half Quarter mare with a mane about two feet long… just a beautiful, beautiful horse, and kind too.

But she was always dropping her hind lead, cross cantering… if I really held her together under saddle she could hold the lead, but on the longe she just would swap back and forth like a car with a bad wheel. Not lame, just… wonky.

Finally, after a successful and capable trainer had her for a little while and said "something’s wrong’ we did the work to find out she’d fractured her pelvis (MRI finally) at some point in the past and had major healing/alignment trouble and she was not going to get better.

I just trail rode her for awhile (which was OK) but when she started having intermittent issues in front, I gave her away to be a pasture pet.

Even watched your video to see your mare’s face, wondering if my horse had made it into your video!

Good luck, you’re trying hard to be a good horse parent! If you can find the right kind of help in your area, you’ll probably get a lot more enjoyment for your effort.