.
Have you had the chiropractor return? Since she made a big improvement once, that would be something to try again. When it slipped out of position, muscles, tenons, ligaments were stretched in such a way as to allow re-injury to happen more easily. Sometimes you have to be diligent about putting it back where it belongs repeatedly until the soft tissues tighten back up again.
âSacrum out of place?â This is 100% NONSENSE. :lol:
The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly âchiroâ fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify âchiropractorsâ for animals. Period. And no human âchiropracticâ schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL âTHING.â It is a ripoff creating imaginary âproblemsâ and âtreatments.â
A horse that actually had its âsacrum out of placeâ would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horseâs hind end would most likely be paralyzed.
Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!
Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues youâre seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!
(Want to be SURE his sacrum isnât out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?) :rolleyes:
Horses are NOT cars. Itâs not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. Itâs axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride heâs getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.
And thatâs where you need to put your money.
I agree with Lady Eboshi. If your horseâs bones were really out of place it wouldnât be standing. The returning stiffness could easily have been cause by over doing it a little in training. I know Iâm pretty stiff the day after a solid session at the gym. The conditioning work likely did more to help your horse than the massage. Though there is some scientific support for the benefit of massage in muscle recovery.
Ditch the chiro, any benefit you have seen from it is just placebo effect by proxy.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8850473]
âSacrum out of place?â This is 100% NONSENSE. :lol:
The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly âchiroâ fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify âchiropractorsâ for animals. Period. And no human âchiropracticâ schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL âTHING.â It is a ripoff creating imaginary âproblemsâ and âtreatments.â
A horse that actually had its âsacrum out of placeâ would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horseâs hind end would most likely be paralyzed.
Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!
Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues youâre seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!
(Want to be SURE his sacrum isnât out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?) :rolleyes:
Horses are NOT cars. Itâs not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. Itâs axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride heâs getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.
And thatâs where you need to put your money.[/QUOTE]
I am only relaying the chiropractors words, whom as i may have forgotten to mention, only came out once, and was actually there treating a different horse at the time, overheard the conversation i was having with my trainer, and offered to look at the horse. I have no previous experience with that chiro, or any others, so I wonât comment on their capabilities (or lack there of), I only know what they told me in that respect. That said, the horse did improve afterwards, so whatever they did worked, for a time.
Since you seem certain that what I was told is NOT the issue, do you have any ideas of what it could be, other than muscular stiffness and soreness due to work, as we already looked into this along with many other possible causes-with both trainers, two vets, and a surgical veterinarian- that would fit the symptoms? I have no issues admitting I do not know everything, and welcome any helpful advice. Iâm only trying to get the horse I paid for back. The horse was in no pain and certainly had no limitations when i tried it, took it on trial, or purchased it. The issues started upon the horses arrival after transport, which I ought to mention included a plane.
I should also add at this point that the trainer whom I work with, and works the horse a few times a month, is an olympic level trainer, and having seen the fantastic results with other horses the trainer has produced, I feel quite confident that my trainer, whom is both professional and experienced, is more than capable.
Naturally, I do not expect the horse to be âshow-readyâ the week it steps off the truck, and I of course expected there to be months of training involved, that was never my issue. My concern is that the horse, who could previously do third and fourth level dressage movements with ease now struggles with things such as a simple flying change. My first concern is for the recovery and well-being of the horse, but my second is for the capabilities of it. I want to know what paths to try that i havenât yet so that I can do my best to help it back on its hooves, as it were, and go from there.
That said, it is an expensive horse, and I am also looking to ensure my investment is not going to be wasted. If the horse can be treated, and recover, fantastic. That is my best-case scenario. But first, I need to know how to do so, and as most things seem to have hit a dead end, I have turned to the corners of the horse-community I do not have reach to without the internet.
Thanks
Hello,
I have not had the chiropractor back out (she was actually at my stables to see a different horse, and offered to look at mine upon overhearing a conversation I was having), though I have had a masseuse out for exactly the reason of muscles, tendons, etc. The masseuse seems to have made some progress, for the horse is definitely less sore than it was when we first started having the masseuse out. We also, briefly, had the horse on MSM powder, which some say is effective and others believe to make no difference at all. However, as it isnât harmful, we gave it a shot. Didnât seem to have any effect.
Your chiro person sounds like a nut, a horseâs SI joint is not something that âslips out of place.â Although Iâve seen plenty of these people that talk this way. The last chiro person out at my barn (not for any of my horses!) told an owner that her horseâs hip joint was dislocated and that she had âput it back into place.â I was thinking gee whiz, here the horse was walking and trotting around the pasture totally sound, who knew it had a dislocated hip? :rolleyes: And also thinking, wow, this chiro lady must be superwoman, because when my petite human friend dislocated a major joint and had to have it put back into place in the ER it took two people and a bunch of drugs to relax her muscles before they could get it back into place! We should have just called this chiro and put my friend in the crossties.
Anyway, SI injuries can and do occur, and horses can also have soreness in that area. Your best bet is to get a reputable lameness vet out to evaluate the horse. Get a proper diagnosis before you start asking questions about treatment and healing. SI joints can take a while to heal. SI joints can also be injected, which can sometimes be helpful. Again, get a reputable vet out so that you know what is going on instead of using a chiropractor with no veterinary training to âdiagnoseâ your horse.
The chiro only saw the horse once, and has not returned. We thought it might just be returning stiffness from muscles as well, but it appears more deep rooted than that. We have kept up conditioning work, as well as semi-regular massages for the horse. I am, however, relieved that it now seems very unlikely an bones were out of place-though disappointed we are now back to square one in knowing what the problem is- as bones issues are not something anyone desires.
[QUOTE=TwistedLuck;8850678]
Hello,
I have not had the chiropractor back out (she was actually at my stables to see a different horse, and offered to look at mine upon overhearing a conversation I was having), though I have had a masseuse out for exactly the reason of muscles, tendons, etc. The masseuse seems to have made some progress, for the horse is definitely less sore than it was when we first started having the masseuse out. We also, briefly, had the horse on MSM powder, which some say is effective and others believe to make no difference at all. However, as it isnât harmful, we gave it a shot. Didnât seem to have any effect.[/QUOTE]
How long did you do the MSM?? It can take up to a month to see a difference. Some horses require a bigger dose per day then others.
Wonât comment on the chiro deal,got my opinions there but will refrain from comment.:winkgrin:
Sigh, LadyE, sigh. Your ranting is as bad as what youâre ranting about.
I have had my (very good) chiropractor/vet fix many, many things over the years that traditional vets havenât been able to figure out. Often times my chiro/vet explains things in an âeasy to visualize, but perhaps not exactly the issueâ way rather than trying to get me to understand every bit of what sheâs doing.
If you saw big improvement after the chiro session then why doubt that itâs helping?
And yes, Iâve had issues with pain/injuries to the sacrum that my chiro/vet and my non-vet bodyworker have made huge differences with. I donât think anyone can tell you a time frame without being involved, though. So many variables and so many different things that could impact that timeframe.
I have one horse (my big jumper) who used to âwreckâ himself once a year. My best guess was that he would get to goofing around and rearing on the hill in his pasture and heâd end up going over backwards or sideways. He would go from great rides and looking great to suddenly looking like a trainwreckâŠstiff, unwilling to go, crooked, and though I wouldnât call it âlame,â I would say that he was using his body parts very unevenly. Typically it would take about 6 weeks of work with my vet/chiro and the other gal coming once a week or once every other week and you could see the differences from week to week and start to finish as they were quite dramatic. Seemed like it always happened when we started getting warm weather in the late winter, but still had lots of mud (so February-ish) and he was always back to the big jumps by the end of March or early April.
But again, so many variables depending on what actually happened.
[QUOTE=TwistedLuck;8850672]
I am only relaying the chiropractors words, whom as i may have forgotten to mention, only came out once, and was actually there treating a different horse at the time, overheard the conversation i was having with my trainer, and offered to look at the horse. I have no previous experience with that chiro, or any others, so I wonât comment on their capabilities (or lack there of), I only know what they told me in that respect. That said, the horse did improve afterwards, so whatever they did worked, for a time.
Since you seem certain that what I was told is NOT the issue, do you have any ideas of what it could be, other than muscular stiffness and soreness due to work, as we already looked into this along with many other possible causes-with both trainers, two vets, and a surgical veterinarian- that would fit the symptoms? I have no issues admitting I do not know everything, and welcome any helpful advice. Iâm only trying to get the horse I paid for back. The horse was in no pain and certainly had no limitations when i tried it, took it on trial, or purchased it. The issues started upon the horses arrival after transport, which I ought to mention included a plane.
I should also add at this point that the trainer whom I work with, and works the horse a few times a month, is an olympic level trainer, and having seen the fantastic results with other horses the trainer has produced, I feel quite confident that my trainer, whom is both professional and experienced, is more than capable.
Naturally, I do not expect the horse to be âshow-readyâ the week it steps off the truck, and I of course expected there to be months of training involved, that was never my issue. My concern is that the horse, who could previously do third and fourth level dressage movements with ease now struggles with things such as a simple flying change. My first concern is for the recovery and well-being of the horse, but my second is for the capabilities of it. I want to know what paths to try that i havenât yet so that I can do my best to help it back on its hooves, as it were, and go from there.
That said, it is an expensive horse, and I am also looking to ensure my investment is not going to be wasted. If the horse can be treated, and recover, fantastic. That is my best-case scenario. But first, I need to know how to do so, and as most things seem to have hit a dead end, I have turned to the corners of the horse-community I do not have reach to without the internet.
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Your horse âstruggles with things like a simple flying changeâ when ridden by the âolympic level trainerâ or BY YOU? Big difference there, and the balance and timing involved in flying changes is anything BUT âsimple!â
Frankly, OP, you sound like maybe an inexperienced or even âabsenteeâ horse owner whoâs collected a bunch of expensive rent-seekers with target lock on your pocket. :winkgrin: They smell money, like blood in the water.
The things youâre describing sound like ordinary rider/training issues. They are what training for athletic competition is ABOUT. Training decisions, how much to do and of what, on what schedule, under which rider, etc. âThe Program,â IOW. But the more your horse stands around being pseudo-âmedicalized,â the less training will be going on. But youâll still be getting the billsâALL the bills from these clowns who are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.
[QUOTE=tazycat;8850722]
How long did you do the MSM?? It can take up to a month to see a difference. Some horses require a bigger dose per day then others.
Wonât comment on the chiro deal,got my opinions there but will refrain from comment.:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Instead of wasting time with MSM, a very weak anti-inflammatory, put him on a gram of Bute per day for a week (with your vetâs permission) and see if you notice a change. But it sounds to me like nothing more involved than ordinary stiffness from working. Iâd see if he could have at least 12 hoursâ turnout, or failing that some serious warm-up, cool-down, and hand walking. Very likely a conditioning problem. Plus, what we ask dressage horses and jumpers to do with their bodies (going in a state of compression) on so many small circles, plus the concussion of jumping large fences, is anything BUT ânatural!â
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8850786]
Instead of wasting time with MSM, a very weak anti-inflammatory, put him on a gram of Bute per day for a week (with your vetâs permission) and see if you notice a change. But it sounds to me like nothing more involved than ordinary stiffness from working. Iâd see if he could have at least 12 hoursâ turnout, or failing that some serious warm-up, cool-down, and hand walking. Very likely a conditioning problem. Plus, what we ask dressage horses and jumpers to do with their bodies (going in a state of compression) on so many small circles, plus the concussion of jumping large fences, is anything BUT ânatural!â[/QUOTE]
Ah,this was on an old horse i wasnât riding,donât have him any longer. Heâs gone over the rainbow bridge. Currently not using any supplements.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8850781]
Your horse âstruggles with things like a simple flying changeâ when ridden by the âolympic level trainerâ or BY YOU? Big difference there, and the balance and timing involved in flying changes is anything BUT âsimple!â
Frankly, OP, you sound like maybe an inexperienced or even âabsenteeâ horse owner whoâs collected a bunch of expensive rent-seekers with target lock on your pocket. :winkgrin: They smell money, like blood in the water.
The things youâre describing sound like ordinary rider/training issues. They are what training for athletic competition is ABOUT. Training decisions, how much to do and of what, on what schedule, under which rider, etc. âThe Program,â IOW. But the more your horse stands around being pseudo-âmedicalized,â the less training will be going on. But youâll still be getting the billsâALL the bills from these clowns who are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.[/QUOTE]
The horse struggles with the aforementioned with both my Olympic level trainer and myself, though naturally more so when I ride as I am not an Olympic level rider.
As for your comments about being an âabsenteeâ rider/owner, Iâll thank you to keep your mouth closed regarding issues of which you have no knowledge. I spend 5+ hours in the stables each day. Furthermore, I am perfectly aware of what âordinary rider/training issuesâ are, and trust me, my trainer is more than happy to point out when itâs a rider issue. The horse is worked six days a week, so he is not âstanding around being pseudo-medicalizedâ.
Iâll appreciate your ability to refrain from rude comments which have no base in the future.
I read the original post and wanted to comment, but didnât get it in before the deletion.
But, OP, many chiropractors use the term âout of jointâ or âoutâ but what they really mean is âstuckâ or âadheredâ due to injury, conformational issue, improper muscling, or all of the above. Obviously the bones are not necessarily âout of placeâ because that would mean some catastrophic injury, but it does seem to be a term that chiropractors (human included) use from time to time.
I know more people that have chiro done on performance and show dogs than horses, but itâs the same idea; and my chiro is also a licensed vet that specializes in alternative therapies. An injured joint can form adhesions that prevent mobility, and the chiropractic treatment can break the adhesion and loosen the joint again. But obviously, how the muscles work with the joints can have an affect on the jointâs ability to stay loose (or free from adhesions) and it may take some time.
If the chiropractorâs treatment showed some improvement, I would bring that person back to look at the horse again. It is unrealistic that one chiro treatment would cure a horse that needs adjustment. But of course, itâs also possible that there are multiple factors in play, so if possible, Iâd work with a chiro that is a vet, or a vet that is willing to with in conjunction with a chiro to look at what is going on.
Iâve seen some real amazing alternative therapies work in real life, so I am a true believer of proper chiropractic treatment - in conjunction with real veterinary medicine. I wouldnât get too hung up on the words being used but the results of the treatment.
Not all chiros are equal. You want one whoâs certified as a veterinary chiro. In my very limited experience with chiro, itâs only part of the equation. Correct work and massage can also help.
My old mare would stand with her under legs almost perpendicular to her body. My vet, whoâs certified as a chiro, took a look at her and I scratched my head a little at some of the things he found (âpelvic tiltâ, âopen pelvic floorâ). But the issue with her hind legs went away for about a month. It came back, but I started working with her and itâs not a problem now.
I started this same horse on MSM since early August and am only now seeing results. So it can take a while.
Sigh. Why did no one quote the original post.
We have a run of people deleting their original post lately. It is getting frustrating.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8851173]
Sigh. Why did no one quote the original post.
We have a run of people deleting their original post lately. It is getting frustrating.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing,i was going to quote it but never got a chance.
Based on the comments above â Did you buy the horse in Europe and now once you get it home you found it doesnât easily do the things you saw it do over there? Welcome to a club of many people who have done the same thing if so! A lot of those European riders are SUPER at making horses look incredible but the horses are not easy or as confirmed as many people expect them to be hereâŠ
The good news is that it will come back with training because that horse is in there.
I donât know about dressage but it is VERY common for sales barns in Europe to basically school the same courses every day, without moving the fences. The horses are so used to that course they can put the jumps up and the horses pretty much jump it by themselves. They know it inside out. But get them home and add new complications, new jumps, a new placeâŠand they regress back to MUCH lower fences! The training is not really there underneath. Iâve seen several horses imported from Europe who were jumping 1.2 m courses there, but I wouldnât consider actually broke to jump 2â6 well. Itâs just a sales technique.
A lot of sales barn riders, too, can make about anything look INCREDIBLE. That is a real skill set! but hard for many to recreate once they get the horse home.
Adding â I canât see the post any more so no comment on its veterinary issues or lack thereof. Just another thing to consider. I have found a vet/chiro to be beneficial occasionally but itâs not something I use very often. My horses arenât jumping at really high levels, though, and I try to leg them up slowly so they donât get sore.
