Really?
Colorado State apparently hasn’t crossed your radar.
Don’t discount that he could have gotten injured during transport. A barn I worked at several years ago got a very nice young horse in that had vetted with flying colors, but when he got there just wasn’t quite right. It turned out during his less than six hour trip here, he slipped or banged around enough in the trailer to cause a minor fracture in his hip. Regular flexions and blocking couldn’t pinpoint it, and I think they had to resort to scintigraphy to actually confirm the injury location.
My vet also does chiro work (I think she is certified in an equine sports something or other). Yes- I don’t know the specifics because I have only had her look at 1 horse I thought may have an issue (and she didn’t). But a lot of upper level farms around here use her for chiro work, even if she is not their attending vet.
So- that being said- I can’t see your original post (seriously- why did you delete it- arg). A lot of times vets (or doctors or whatever) try to use layman language to explain things. Perhaps this is what happened to you, or you heard it and that is how you relay it back. Whatever- I am not going to crucify you for it.
I’d be more aware that the most common sacroiliac injuries (from deleting your post I can’t tell if you are speaking of the 5 vertebrae that are fused together to form the sacrum or the whole wedge of bone, including the joint (see- layman term- wedge 
)
Not a vet- I’ll give you my experience I just went through with my mare, who I had up at Purdue. This is how they explained it to me, the way her “lameness” or slight offness presented. It was barely perceptible with her.
SI joint sprain: ligament can get overstretched and have a minor degree of tearing, rupture or dislocation of this joint is very very low to nonexistent. But the micro tears can be very painful
Arthritis: possibly from injury or arthritic changes associated with age, cartilage breaks down
When we had her examined- they watched her form behind and one side of her pelvis seemed higher than the other. The muscle looked minorly atrophied.
Her issue was most likely a result of an injury she sustained when she had injured her suspensory, and being out of work exacerbated the discomfort - it is hard to tell and pinpoint (from what I have been told by Purdue).
What has worked with her, prior to doing any injection into the joint, has been more of an PT/rehab. Having a massage therapist work on her muscles and the vet would do an exam. Long warm ups, bringing her back into work slowly.
Anyway- my apology for the rambling. Just sharing an experience.
However-I would like a definition of an Olympic Level Trainer? Is that someone who has been to the Olympics or an Olympic Competitor?
Just a note–sacroiliac strain is not uncommon in the horse, and is also referred to as subluxation. Perhaps different terminology would calm some of you who are frothing at the bit.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8851327]
Really?
Colorado State apparently hasn’t crossed your radar.[/QUOTE]
150 hour course for “certification?” And to do WHAT, exactly? Sorry, but I’m not impressed. There’s still not one lick of evidence for chiro or acupuncture, in animals or people. Suggest the lurkers read this link in depth: http://www.doctorramey.com/chiropractic/
OP claimed the “chiro” said her horse’s “sacrum was out of joint,” but he had just recently passed a pre-purchase exam as sound. Main problem seemed to be with flying changes, which to me sounded like a rider issue.
Kind of a bizarre post; sounded like a beginner but claimed to be in training with an “olympic” rider. Whole thing didn’t ring true. I’m betting the post above about buying from Europe hit the mark.
What bothers me about the “alternative” stuff is that I see people wanting to use supplements, herbs, chiro, etc. INSTEAD of paying the money to get the horse properly worked up by a good lameness vet, and then seen by a good trainer. This does a great disservice to the horse, and is a major mistake when you could be dealing with something like EPM or other neurological or metabolic issues. It also gets a lot of horses judged NQR when they are perfectly fine, but just need a more positive ride, better shoeing, or whatever.
I have personally seen a DVM “chiropractor” claim to Dx “ulcers” via pressing a pencil eraser in the brisket area–an “acupuncture point” debunked long ago. The horse was in vibrant health, on 24/7 grass turnout at the time of over a year’s duration and not even in work. Best eater in the field and borderline obese! So we’ll have to agree to disagree but I see way too many snakes being oiled by these people.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8851392]
Just a note–sacroiliac strain is not uncommon in the horse, and is also referred to as subluxation. Perhaps different terminology would calm some of you who are frothing at the bit.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I was looking for, thanks. I could not recall off of the top of my head some of the terms.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8851438]
What bothers me about the “alternative” stuff is that I see people wanting to use supplements, herbs, chiro, etc. INSTEAD of paying the money to get the horse properly worked up by a good lameness vet, and then seen by a good trainer. This does a great disservice to the horse, and is a major mistake when you could be dealing with something like EPM or other neurological or metabolic issues. It also gets a lot of horses judged NQR when they are perfectly fine, but just need a more positive ride, better shoeing, or whatever.
QUOTE]
My multi quote isn’t working but I do agree with this, as well. I rely on my vet team, and I am not opposed to chiro but I think it can be a tad overdone (I guess I can ask an animal communicator to ask my horse where it hurts 
) [sarcasm font]
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8851438]
What bothers me about the “alternative” stuff is that I see people wanting to use supplements, herbs, chiro, etc. INSTEAD of paying the money to get the horse properly worked up by a good lameness vet, and then seen by a good trainer. This does a great disservice to the horse, and is a major mistake when you could be dealing with something like EPM or other neurological or metabolic issues. It also gets a lot of horses judged NQR when they are perfectly fine, but just need a more positive ride, better shoeing, or whatever.
So we’ll have to agree to disagree but I see way too many snakes being oiled by these people.[/QUOTE]
Sorry you haven’t had an opportunity to work with a good vet that uses complementary therapies. We have several in my area.
I’m sure there are wackos in every field, but the entire field of alternative/complementary medicine shouldn’t be discounted because you have never met one that knows what they are talking about.
As I said before, even human chiros use the term “out” - although my canine chiropractor does not.
You read a lot of posts here now where people think they “need” all of this–extensive supplements, “bodywork,” “chiro,” saddle fitters who insist they need $7K custom saddles, etc. The culture of some barns has made these things “needs” instead of “options,” and that is pricing a lot of good people out of owning horses. People who frankly don’t have the experience to know any better.
Too often, the horse’s REAL needs–turnout, quality forage, unlimited water, a skilled rider, a trainer’s eye, a proper warm-up and cool-down–are NOT being met because the barn is inadequate in those areas. Hence, the “needs” occasioned by “problems” that do not rise to the level of true unsoundness.
Speaking as an owner of a horse with pelvic asymmetries that cause for some lack of mobility in the SI area on one side and hypermobility on the other…if something has gotten stuck, a good chiro can help, but you have to work on properly conditioning the area. This may be from doing very specific exercises, paying attention to engagement of the hind end, not just solely having the horse in work. I also found that getting dramatic but very short lived relief from a chiro visit for the hind end meant that the SI area wasn’t actually the primary problem even though it needs watching and proper conditioning due to whatever happened in the horse’s youth that caused the asymmetry of the pelvis. Have you considered ulcers? Fore or hind gut?
LadyE, while it is true it is quite difficult to manipulate a horse’s skeleton, you think there is no basis for acupuncture in humans or animals either?
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8850473]
“Sacrum out of place?” This is 100% NONSENSE. :lol:
The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly “chiro” fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify “chiropractors” for animals. Period. And no human “chiropractic” schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL “THING.” It is a ripoff creating imaginary “problems” and “treatments.”
A horse that actually had its “sacrum out of place” would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horse’s hind end would most likely be paralyzed.
Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!
Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues you’re seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!
(Want to be SURE his sacrum isn’t out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?) :rolleyes:
Horses are NOT cars. It’s not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. It’s axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride he’s getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.
And that’s where you need to put your money.[/QUOTE]
This is why we can’t have nice things, or, apparently, a peaceful, welcoming board. :no: LadyEboshi is way out of line in brow-beating – a greenie, no less! – someone that she disagrees with, IMHO. While I didn’t read the OP before it got pulled, the OP seems to have been merely asking about her horse’s health and even if her questions are foolish, or LadyEboshi strongly dislikes the treatment method that the horse owner chose for her own horse, I see absolutely no reason for the ferocious attack on the OP by LadyEboshi. 
Seriously, was it really necessary to ambush anyone so vehemently, especially when the treatment in question (chiropractic) was certainly doing no harm to the horse? It’s not harmful to horse or human, not dangerous in any way, isn’t delaying appropriate medical treatment, it’s merely a therapy that the OP chose in an attempt to help her horse, which may or may not be successful. Maybe somehow in her own mind, LadyEboshi is trying to save the OP’s wallet, but I can’t imagine that it requires this level of intensity to do so and besides, it’s the OP’s money, so again, no need for LE’s histrionics. :sigh:
Maybe LE didn’t mean to come across this way, but it sure reads as a very aggressive and over the top attack on the OP. LE occasionally has very good posts, but this one is definitely uncalled for, IMHO. Full moon? Too much summer heat? Regardless, my suggestion is to please step away from the keyboard LE and maybe go for a ride? :yes:
I don’t think the OP will be back,there are better ways of going about expressing your opinion without being rude. Or coming off as rude that’s fine if one doesn’t believe in chiro work. But OP seemed to think it helped his or her horse. I’am one of the not believers of chiro work,but i refrained from expressing that opinion…
After all it’s OP money so if they so desire to spend it, on chiro work or whatever,if they think it works or helps well that’s great. I know i have my opinions on things. But i try not to come off as rude,if i have it was never my intent.
OP came here looking for help but i’am sure they feel shot down. OP i hope you come back…there are people on here who are very helpful…with lots of knowledge.
Ah, yes, one uttering of the word “chiropractor” and LadyE’'s ears are burning…
Seriously, haven’t you figured out by now that if your mission is truly to educate folks, that you get more with honey than you do with vinegar?
OP, if you are still reading, lots of things can happen in transport. I didn’t see the first post, but it sounds like maybe some rest and a rehab of sorts may be beneficial for this horse.
Didn’t read the OP but any number of veterinary things could happen between a PPE and the horse’s delivery including lyme disease, an injury, etc. If the horse seems NQR I personally would start with a VET.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8851525]
Speaking as an owner of a horse with pelvic asymmetries that cause for some lack of mobility in the SI area on one side and hypermobility on the other…if something has gotten stuck, a good chiro can help, but you have to work on properly conditioning the area. This may be from doing very specific exercises, paying attention to engagement of the hind end, not just solely having the horse in work. I also found that getting dramatic but very short lived relief from a chiro visit for the hind end meant that the SI area wasn’t actually the primary problem even though it needs watching and proper conditioning due to whatever happened in the horse’s youth that caused the asymmetry of the pelvis. Have you considered ulcers? Fore or hind gut?
LadyE, while it is true it is quite difficult to manipulate a horse’s skeleton, you think there is no basis for acupuncture in humans or animals either?[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t. It has been investigated very thoroughly and with a great deal of interest by the scientific community, and here’s what they found out:
http://www.doctorramey.com/whats-the-point/
The logical fallacy is that people believe that WHATEVER they were doing at the time the condition got better was actually effecting a “cure.” Here’s an example:
Your kid has the chickenpox. The doctor says it has to run its course. The local woo-woo says feed him lots and lots of chocolate pudding, so at least he’ll feel good. Well, guess what? You fed the kid lots of chocolate pudding, and five days later he was FINE! Therefore, conclusion: Eureka! Chocolate pudding CURES CHICKENPOX!!! 
(Can we get it in SmartPaks?) :lol:
The equivalent happens in horses all the time, for the simple reason that most equine annoyances short of serious damage are self-limiting and of short duration. They are GOING to get better on their own whether you do anything, everything or NOTHING. I have had vets telling me this for over 45 years! 
And I observe it to be true, every single day with a herd of 20+. Give a vet a drink or two, and they’ll even admit, tongue in cheek, that plenty of the stuff they hand out for owners to “do” is mostly to keep them busy, feeling like they’re doing SOMETHING “therapeutic” while it’s actually Time and Nature doing the work.
But that’s FINE. You can spend your money on anything you like! People buy “wrinkle creams,” hair “conditioners,” Thighmasters, consult psychics and pay for “treatments” where someone puts sliced cucumbers over your eyeballs.
If that’s you, party on, stimulates the economy and all that.
But I’m still gonna call out pseudoscience where I see it.
I like Dr. Ramey but sometimes I think he is quick to say there’s no proof, no studies, no science, when in fact people have attempted to study the efficacy of certain treatments using objective criteria. Sure, some issues may resolve on their own. Acupuncture now in veterinary medicine is also going the way it is in humans. It’s less about meridian woo-woo and more about direct pain relief. Trigger point therapy, etc. Sure, we want to know WHY we hurt. Do we have an underlying asymmetry or dysfunction or injury? Is it just repetitive motion of the sports we like to do? Providing the pain relief can help you peel back the layers of the onion to find the root of the problem and then come up with a game plan that addresses that. Whether it’s realigning the chi or just getting an underactivated muscle to work and calming down a sore muscle, who cares if it’s working.
Here’s one recent example for benefits of equine acupuncture pulled from a Google Scholar search:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/vaa.12373/abstract
I don’t really want to get into an argument with someone who is SO certain that there is NO benefit to ANY acupuncture or chiro…but it is simply not true that there is no evidence acupuncture has any benefit. NIH has found benefits to acupuncture for pain control in some conditions, and it has well-documented benefits to control nausea and vomiting from chemotherapy, for example.
It would be more helpful if you approached this with less hyperbole - there is a big difference between, for example, using a saddle fitter to help keep your horse’s back comfortable and enable him to work well, and claiming that all saddle fitters insist that you must buy a 7000 dollar custom saddle or your horse will keel over.
Neither of the fitters I have used for a long time have EVER suggested a custom saddle was needed for my horse (my current fitter says horses are the easy part of the equation - the rider can be trickier), and only once even suggested a different saddle than the one I was using as my horse was clearly back sore and I was fighting to have a decent position.
And so on.
Of course, Ramey is not the last word any more than anyone else, but he DOES bring some cogent arguments against much of this stuff, certainly as a FIRST line of approach. “Results” are very, VERY subjective, and “belief” is not evidence.
I’m just P.O.'d as a barn owner because I see so many utter, unashamed CHARLATANS running about, undermining the opinions of the vets who are actually trying to do real work. We’ve got one locally who, with a straight face, bills herself as a “telepathic animal communicator,” “myofascial release” masseuse (claiming “fascia lock!”) and a “cranio-sacral” therapist besides (clinically not even a “thing” unless you mean “head up rear.”) There is ZERO biological plausibility to any of these things, according to people who’ve actually completed vet or medical school, yet the “spa” acculturated crowd eat it up and these sham “treatments” get sillier every day.
Scotty said, “Ye cannae change th’laws o’physics, Keptin!” But in a world where it’s now fashionable for us to pretend that all ideas have equal merit, people think they have. Hey, here’s a business opportunity–can anyone prove your horse ISN’T infested with “nanites?” :eek: I’ll come and sweep him for nanites, yeah, and if you really thought that “worked,” let me “certify” YOU as an Equine Nanite-Sweeper . . . hang up a shingle!
I blame the American education system, increasingly weak in math and science, and the fact that a lot of “science” itself is being subverted, press-fit to “prove” the desired results. It’s why almost any Internet meme that “Science says” is now instantly believed by most readers, right down to coffee enemas, without anyone taking a look at the QUALITY of that “science.”
You are free to believe whatever you like. But nobody touches horses on my place unless they’ve got a DVM, and even with them I seriously question some expensive diagnostics that may not actually benefit the horse, and some treatments which are a long way from proven. IRAP, PRP, cold laser etc. come to mind.
Please show me the quality of the evidence before I pull out my checkbook. And even 10,000 “anecdotes” do not yet equal “data.” At least not according to my insurance companies.
Interesting your insurance company won’t pay for alternative medicine. I was referred to an acupuncturist by my pain doctor who is actually a doctor. I didn’t want to go, didn’t think it had a shot of helping but so far it is the only thing that has helped at all and I am off all the meds they put me on. Insurance is ecstatic to be paying for it since the next step is fusion surgery.
They explicitly state they’ll pay only for evidence-based medicine, and provide the laundry list. I’m fine with that.
