My insurance pays for Chiro too now that I think about it. You must have had to search for a policy where they were so behind the times
I don’t recall the OP exactly, but I don’t think there is any reason to assume that the chiropractor the OP used was not a DVM.
I dunno, even my horse’s MM policy will pay for alternate therapies if I have a script for it from a vet for a specific “non-maintenance” kind of problem such as what appears to be going on with the OP’s horse in that it’s a newly discovered issue.
Finally, while the original title of this thread may have been a good example of some chiropractors using terms that are not exactly literally accurate, you can’t tell me you’ve never seen a horse with legitimate SI area injury/damage unless you’ve never seen a horse with a hunter’s bump.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8851438]
What bothers me about the “alternative” stuff is that I see people wanting to use supplements, herbs, chiro, etc. INSTEAD of paying the money to get the horse properly worked up by a good lameness vet, and then seen by a good trainer. This does a great disservice to the horse, and is a major mistake when you could be dealing with something like EPM or other neurological or metabolic issues. It also gets a lot of horses judged NQR when they are perfectly fine, but just need a more positive ride, better shoeing, or whatever.[/QUOTE]
Don’t use them then. But why the RANT every time someone mentions alternatives to traditional lameness medicine? Stop berating folks, including myself, who have had enough success with chiro and bodywork folks to warrant including them in our regular programs.
I’ve get far more value from $150 worth of body work than $1500 worth of traditional lameness medicine.
Are there quacks out there? Yes. Are they all quacks? NO! And vets aren’t immune from the same plague of charlatans.
[QUOTE=Laurierace;8852502]
My insurance pays for Chiro too now that I think about it. You must have had to search for a policy where they were so behind the times[/QUOTE]
Yeah. “If you LIKE your insurance, you can KEEP your insurance.” The one I LIKED is the one I HAD. The one I have NOW (thanks, Mr. President) covers all the things I REALLY need in my old age–like autism and maternity.
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8852593]
Don’t use them then. But why the RANT every time someone mentions alternatives to traditional lameness medicine? Stop berating folks, including myself, who have had enough success with chiro and bodywork folks to warrant including them in our regular programs.
I’ve get far more value from $150 worth of body work than $1500 worth of traditional lameness medicine.
Are there quacks out there? Yes. Are they all quacks? NO! And vets aren’t immune from the same plague of charlatans.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I’d say the BIGGEST “rant” topic on COTH is versus Barn Owners! And I’m a Barn Owner, and you don’t see me getting all triggered and offended, now, do you? Of course, I’m pretty impossible to offend . . .
Opinions are like you-know-whats. Everybody has one. Don’t like mine, you don’t have to read it. COTH Forum exists as a platform for rants! :lol:
You always have the option of reading just the Blingy-Helmet threads . . . 
[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;8852593]
Don’t use them then. But why the RANT every time someone mentions alternatives to traditional lameness medicine? Stop berating folks, including myself, who have had enough success with chiro and bodywork folks to warrant including them in our regular programs.
I’ve get far more value from $150 worth of body work than $1500 worth of traditional lameness medicine.
Are there quacks out there? Yes. Are they all quacks? NO! And vets aren’t immune from the same plague of charlatans.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I’d say the BIGGEST “rant” topic on COTH is versus Barn Owners! And I’m a Barn Owner, and you don’t see me getting all triggered and kerfuffled, now, do you?
Opinions are like you-know-whats. Everybody has one. Don’t like mine, you don’t have to read it. COTH Forum exists as a platform for rants! :lol:
You always have the option of reading just the Blingy-Helmet threads . . .
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8852733]
Opinions are like you-know-whats. Everybody has one. Don’t like mine, you don’t have to read it. COTH Forum exists as a platform for rants! :lol: [/QUOTE]
I don’t think COTH exists for individuals to repond to someone else’s post, offensively berate them, and then turn it into your own platform for a rant.
If you want to rant about chiros and quack practitioners and how they are fleecing horse owners around the country - you should do that.
Le Sigh…
The problem with Chiro and other alternative treatments in horses is:
1.) few well controlled studies with large enough “n” (numbers)
2.) In humans you can have placebo effect, which is thoroughly documented. So a human says “x” treatment worked for me therefore it will work for my horse. What may have worked was indeed just a placebo effect…“something was being done therefore it helped” kind of idea. While I do not believe in Chiropractic work, there have been enough studies that showed acupuncture (in humans) to be of some value. The problem is can we actually translate this to equines? Or was just having something done (acupuncture) enough to make us feel better?
I have seen this happen with morphine with my patients. I have given IV morphine then come to check back 5min later and note that the drug hadn’t infused yet (expected to infuse over 15min, so 1/3 the bag should be gone). Well when the pt got up the lines got twisted and kinked and none of the medication had infused. The pt said his pain was now 0/10 from being 10/10. This was 100% placebo effect as the drug a)never had enough time to infuse and b) not enough time for the drug to take action even if it had infused and c)none of it actually made it to him yet!!!
3.) Observer bias- we love our pets and hope that the treatment we got for them helps. We want to believe that, but did it actually or would time have helped just as much? Or was the horse just having a better day? If you have a bunch of vets watch a lame horse you may get many different opinions, and even more opinions from the owner. This is fine, but observer bias is a true problem in accurately assessing if a treatment was effective, especially as the horse can’t verbalize what helped or didn’t.
This article shows that even vets can grade lameness different when they think the animal has had a treatment (in this case a nerve block)
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18085001
SO the point of my rant is not all treatments are created equal, and while we may feel that something has helped, it may be ourselves influencing this decision more than the horse actually benefitting from the treatment. Until there have been well done studies on chiro on equines, it seems dubious at best as it has been disproven in humans. What has been shown to be beneficial in humans is physio, massage, and even a little acupuncture in some studies.
Why don’t we embrace physio and good muscle work more in equines?? Why do people just jump to a chiro? Honest question here because in humans my first recommendation for an athlete is never the chiro…it’s physio, RICE, proper pain medication, proper body mechanics, etc. I just don’t get why we seem to glaze over the well proven things that actually help athletes.
To follow up my post…has anyone ever been given a good physio plan by their vet when their horse was injured or appeared NQR? Like daily stretching, certain exercises, heat/ice rotation, etc. I’d love to hear about that.
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853055]
Le Sigh…
The problem with Chiro and other alternative treatments in horses is:
1.) few well controlled studies with large enough “n” (numbers)[/QUOTE]
But don’t you think that it would be impossible to ever get a controlled study unless researchers actually inflict the exact same damage on every subject? How could you possibly get a controlled study unless you controlled for the injury or conformational problem? Would researchers have to inflict a subluxation and then treat it with chiropractic/alternative versus NSAID/other?
I think if you require a controlled study to prove efficacy of any treatment, you’re likely to miss out on some solutions that might work for an individual.
I don’t understand how anyone can just “not believe in” chiropractic work. You don’t think it’s possible for joints (including the spine) to form adhesions that would limit mobility (from injury, or misuse, or conformational defect?) And that breaking adhesions could make a spine or joint more mobile, which could affect movement?
I agree that doctors, vets, etc. should include prevention and physical therapy, but shouldn’t necessarily discount chiropractic or acupuncture, or other alternative therapies. People in performance dog sports do a lot of preventative PT in conjunction with alternative therapies to avoid (and recover from) injuries. It’s too bad more human doctors don’t advocate the same way.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8851392]
Just a note–sacroiliac strain is not uncommon in the horse, and is also referred to as subluxation. Perhaps different terminology would calm some of you who are frothing at the bit.[/QUOTE]
:yes: Thank you!
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8851392]
Just a note–sacroiliac strain is not uncommon in the horse, and is also referred to as subluxation. Perhaps different terminology would calm some of you who are frothing at the bit.[/QUOTE]
I wonder who that could be…:lol:
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853056]
To follow up my post…has anyone ever been given a good physio plan by their vet when their horse was injured or appeared NQR? Like daily stretching, certain exercises, heat/ice rotation, etc. I’d love to hear about that.[/QUOTE]
Yes. For my horse who has some issues in the pelvic area, I have certain range of motion exercises to do. Leg circles and some light stretching (not to really hold the stretch just enough to work on ROM, and it’s usually done after exercise), and they really want me to buy an Equiband system, and they encourage me to do cavaletti work.
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853055]
Le Sigh…
The problem with Chiro and other alternative treatments in horses is:
1.) few well controlled studies with large enough “n” (numbers)
2.) In humans you can have placebo effect, which is thoroughly documented. So a human says “x” treatment worked for me therefore it will work for my horse. What may have worked was indeed just a placebo effect…“something was being done therefore it helped” kind of idea. While I do not believe in Chiropractic work, there have been enough studies that showed acupuncture (in humans) to be of some value. The problem is can we actually translate this to equines? Or was just having something done (acupuncture) enough to make us feel better?
I have seen this happen with morphine with my patients. I have given IV morphine then come to check back 5min later and note that the drug hadn’t infused yet (expected to infuse over 15min, so 1/3 the bag should be gone). Well when the pt got up the lines got twisted and kinked and none of the medication had infused. The pt said his pain was now 0/10 from being 10/10. This was 100% placebo effect as the drug a)never had enough time to infuse and b) not enough time for the drug to take action even if it had infused and c)none of it actually made it to him yet!!!
3.) Observer bias- we love our pets and hope that the treatment we got for them helps. We want to believe that, but did it actually or would time have helped just as much? Or was the horse just having a better day? If you have a bunch of vets watch a lame horse you may get many different opinions, and even more opinions from the owner. This is fine, but observer bias is a true problem in accurately assessing if a treatment was effective, especially as the horse can’t verbalize what helped or didn’t.
This article shows that even vets can grade lameness different when they think the animal has had a treatment (in this case a nerve block)
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18085001
SO the point of my rant is not all treatments are created equal, and while we may feel that something has helped, it may be ourselves influencing this decision more than the horse actually benefitting from the treatment. Until there have been well done studies on chiro on equines, it seems dubious at best as it has been disproven in humans. What has been shown to be beneficial in humans is physio, massage, and even a little acupuncture in some studies.
Why don’t we embrace physio and good muscle work more in equines?? Why do people just jump to a chiro? Honest question here because in humans my first recommendation for an athlete is never the chiro…it’s physio, RICE, proper pain medication, proper body mechanics, etc. I just don’t get why we seem to glaze over the well proven things that actually help athletes.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for a far more eloquent explanation than what I attempted.
The problem is we’re up against something like a “religious” belief here. People want to believe–they don’t want to be told it’s all their imagination.
This thread has a dozen or so participants, but over 1550 lurkers as of this post.
If even a FEW of them are led to question some of the fashionable nonsense they are being sold, they can then pursue more effective, proven management for their horses.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8853289]
The problem is we’re up against something like a “religious” belief here. People want to believe–they don’t want to be told it’s all their imagination.[/QUOTE]
And no amount of repeated experiential objective evidence will ever convince an “unbeliever” that their myoptic world view is simply wrong.
And hopefully, some of those lurkers will discern that some of us (with multiple competition horses and some ability to carry on a rational cogent discussion without ranting or calling other people “stupid”) have had a positive objective experience with bodywork, chiro, and acupuncture that cannot be dismissed as merely imagination.
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853056]
To follow up my post…has anyone ever been given a good physio plan by their vet when their horse was injured or appeared NQR? Like daily stretching, certain exercises, heat/ice rotation, etc. I’d love to hear about that.[/QUOTE]
Yes, by my DVM who is also an equine and canine chiropractor.
From talking to a friend of mine who is a human chiro, and also certified for animals, DCs go through actual medical school - just like an MD - plus additional training. So they have all of the same knowledge as an MD, plus some.
I would never use a chiropractor for my horses unless he/she was a DVM or a DC with additional certifications. At least then I know they have more than just quackery knowledge. I had a massage therapist working on my horses one time and she started “adjusting” them. I’ve used enough equine chiros to know what she was doing wasn’t right (and even during the massage they were very unhappy with her technique). I stopped her immediately and she hasn’t been back.
see my response in red
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853056]
To follow up my post…has anyone ever been given a good physio plan by their vet when their horse was injured or appeared NQR? Like daily stretching, certain exercises, heat/ice rotation, etc. I’d love to hear about that.[/QUOTE]
Yup, I do it for my clients all the time.
And I do chiro (gasp!) and/or acu (horrors) and/or soft tissue work (whatever is indicated) following a complete lameness and biomechanics evaluation.
We also talk about living situation, training methods and all the other things that can play into NQR.
Anything that requires additional diagnostics goes to the referral center. People sometimes call me to fix stuff because they don’t want to go to their regular vet and I will tell them that an adjustment is not going to fix the problem, they will have to go the traditional route.
And horses very commonly have SI issues.
[QUOTE=Moogles;8853055]
Le Sigh…
The problem with Chiro and other alternative treatments in horses is:
1.) few well controlled studies with large enough “n” (numbers)
2.) In humans you can have placebo effect, which is thoroughly documented. So a human says “x” treatment worked for me therefore it will work for my horse. What may have worked was indeed just a placebo effect…“something was being done therefore it helped” kind of idea. While I do not believe in Chiropractic work, there have been enough studies that showed acupuncture (in humans) to be of some value. The problem is can we actually translate this to equines? Or was just having something done (acupuncture) enough to make us feel better?
I have seen this happen with morphine with my patients. I have given IV morphine then come to check back 5min later and note that the drug hadn’t infused yet (expected to infuse over 15min, so 1/3 the bag should be gone). Well when the pt got up the lines got twisted and kinked and none of the medication had infused. The pt said his pain was now 0/10 from being 10/10. This was 100% placebo effect as the drug a)never had enough time to infuse and b) not enough time for the drug to take action even if it had infused and c)none of it actually made it to him yet!!!
3.) Observer bias- we love our pets and hope that the treatment we got for them helps. We want to believe that, but did it actually or would time have helped just as much? Or was the horse just having a better day? If you have a bunch of vets watch a lame horse you may get many different opinions, and even more opinions from the owner. This is fine, but observer bias is a true problem in accurately assessing if a treatment was effective, especially as the horse can’t verbalize what helped or didn’t.
This article shows that even vets can grade lameness different when they think the animal has had a treatment (in this case a nerve block)
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18085001
SO the point of my rant is not all treatments are created equal, and while we may feel that something has helped, it may be ourselves influencing this decision more than the horse actually benefitting from the treatment. Until there have been well done studies on chiro on equines, it seems dubious at best as it has been disproven in humans. What has been shown to be beneficial in humans is physio, massage, and even a little acupuncture in some studies.
Why don’t we embrace physio and good muscle work more in equines?? Why do people just jump to a chiro? Honest question here because in humans my first recommendation for an athlete is never the chiro…it’s physio, RICE, proper pain medication, proper body mechanics, etc. I just don’t get why we seem to glaze over the well proven things that actually help athletes.[/QUOTE]
With some horses it takes a village!
Owning horses for over 40 years I would share that for me what works is a combination of treatments done by actual equine veterinarians.
I do use a chiropractor he is a equine vet with a fabulous reputation. I have always seen a difference in my horses. He also does acupuncture. A horse may be short on a hind and after treatment the horse travels even. Or a horse travels with the left hip out, after treatment it is resolved. Horses don’t lie and the proof is in their way of going and feeling. Interestingly this particular chiropractor diagnosed one of my horses with EPM from a acupressure point. I then had blood drawn from a regular vet… Low positive, so the horse went to an equine hospital where they did a tap and it was positive for EPM.
I also have massage done, laser treatments, magna wave and use a homeopathic wellness nutritional veterinarian.
Of course I have a wonderful veterinarian and farrier as well. If necessary my horses go to the equine hospital for MRIs or diagnostics they need. I don’t rely 100% on alternative treatments. My vets all work as a team to keep my horses healthy - which isn’t always so easy. Some horses more than others need constant care. Some of my horses have never needed much at all. It really depends.
I do have a treatment my vet suggested is to place your hand on the cap of the hock, standing on the opposite side in case the horse kicks out; massage with your fingers to loosen up the hock cap. This has helped my horses so much and they now enjoy when I massage that area.
There is so much out there that can work or may work or doesn’t work.
I would love to research more information about alternative therapy and would be willing to participate because I personally have had such positive results.
[QUOTE=doublesstable;8854777]
With some horses it takes a village!
Owning horses for over 40 years I would share that for me what works is a combination of treatments done by actual equine veterinarians.
I do use a chiropractor he is a equine vet with a fabulous reputation. I have always seen a difference in my horses. He also does acupuncture. A horse may be short on a hind and after treatment the horse travels even. Or a horse travels with the left hip out, after treatment it is resolved. Horses don’t lie and the proof is in their way of going and feeling. Interestingly this particular chiropractor diagnosed one of my horses with EPM from a acupressure point. I then had blood drawn from a regular vet… Low positive, so the horse went to an equine hospital where they did a tap and it was positive for EPM.
I also have massage done, laser treatments, magna wave and use a homeopathic wellness nutritional veterinarian.
Of course I have a wonderful veterinarian and farrier as well. If necessary my horses go to the equine hospital for MRIs or diagnostics they need. I don’t rely 100% on alternative treatments. My vets all work as a team to keep my horses healthy - which isn’t always so easy. Some horses more than others need constant care. Some of my horses have never needed much at all. It really depends.
I do have a treatment my vet suggested is to place your hand on the cap of the hock, standing on the opposite side in case the horse kicks out; massage with your fingers to loosen up the hock cap. This has helped my horses so much and they now enjoy when I massage that area.
There is so much out there that can work or may work or doesn’t work.
I would love to research more information about alternative therapy and would be willing to participate because I personally have had such positive results.[/QUOTE]
Wonderful! That is more of what I was hoping to hear. I was just wanted there to be more diversity in people’s answers… I do think there needs to be more talk about sports med/physio/massage when something is ailing our athletes. They deserve the most well rounded treatment they can get. And you know if you think your Chiro is helps, well keep going as it seems you have a very diverse approach. When you have such a well rounded approach you are bound to make a positive difference.
