.

[Moogles]

[QUOTE=foggybok;8854755]
Yup, I do it for my clients all the time.

And I do chiro (gasp!) and/or acu (horrors) and/or soft tissue work (whatever is indicated) following a complete lameness and biomechanics evaluation.

We also talk about living situation, training methods and all the other things that can play into NQR.

Anything that requires additional diagnostics goes to the referral center. People sometimes call me to fix stuff because they don’t want to go to their regular vet and I will tell them that an adjustment is not going to fix the problem, they will have to go the traditional route.

And horses very commonly have SI issues.[/QUOTE]

Hey I conceded that acupuncture has some positive studies! But again you address other issues, I think soft tissue work is excellent. So that is more of what I was hoping to hear. In humans back pain is treated with mobility, strength training, physio, anti-inflammatories etc. I think we just need to be doing more of that whole approach. I realize many horses have SI problems, I think we just need a more multifaceted approach to it like for human back pain.

[foggybok]

@Moogles;8854868

Hey I conceded that acupuncture has some positive studies! But again you address other issues, I think soft tissue work is excellent. So that is more of what I was hoping to hear. In humans back pain is treated with mobility, strength training, physio, anti-inflammatories etc. I think we just need to be doing more of that whole approach. I realize many horses have SI problems, I think we just need a more multifaceted approach to it like for human back pain

Sorry, my post was answering your question as well as addressing other posters… I didn’t mean to imply you said anything negative about acu or that SI issues did not exist… It sounds like we agree on a lot of things…

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

[QUOTE/]
If even a FEW of them are led to question some of the fashionable nonsense they are being sold, they can then pursue more effective, proven management for their horses.[/QUOTE]

Another measure of whether a thread has been helpful would be if a horse gets relief or an issue is diminished in a horse/rider relationship.

True, measuring relief on an anecdotal level is an imperfect art and science.
There are a number of veterinary and alternative treatments I have used a time or two with greater or lesser effects. I could enumerate them, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

I do know that I periodically get a low level, annoying but not debilitating, pain in my upper back. Nobody watching me or living with me has ever commented on or noticed when I am having that pain, but over the past 30 years probably 3 or 4 chiropractors and a couple massage therapists have honed in on that area and noticed something off, or "out" if I might use a trigger word. Notably to me, when the chiropractors have  manipulated that area, I almost always leave feeling no pain.

Placebo? Possible, but honestly, if pain goes away from placebo, I'm not going to argue. Recent years I've probably gone to my chiro once or twice in a year, and each time I consider it 36 bucks well spent!   The effects to outsiders are probably only visible via improved mood, and I'm generally in a pretty good mood.  The first time I ever went to a chiro was a referral from my GP, who said honestly all he could do for me would be give me muscle relaxers for the debilitating pain I was in after overexerting in raspberry picking. Seriously, I could stand up straight or lie down flat, but transitions between the two were incredibly painful.

I went to the first chiro I found in the phone book who would take me - walked into office in pain, walked out my old young self. Again, if that was placebo, I'm fine with that.   Most of the time when I really hurt, there is something else going on - I got stepped on, or hit my shin on something, or overused a muscle. Chiro wouldn't help those- but for this small set of issues, I have to say it helps.   

How you design a scientific study to measure that in horses, though, got me. It would be a fun thought exercise to see how we would design such a study - and how we would fund it - but barring that, well, lack of studies proving something does not actually mean something is disproved…

[foggybok]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8850473]
“Sacrum out of place?” This is 100% NONSENSE. :lol:

The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly “chiro” fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify “chiropractors” for animals. Period. And no human “chiropractic” schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL “THING.” It is a ripoff creating imaginary “problems” and “treatments.”

A horse that actually had its “sacrum out of place” would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horse’s hind end would most likely be paralyzed.

Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!

Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues you’re seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!

(Want to be SURE his sacrum isn’t out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?) :rolleyes:

Horses are NOT cars. It’s not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. It’s axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride he’s getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.

And that’s where you need to put your money.[/QUOTE]

http://www.openveterinaryjournal.com/2016/Volume%206%20(1)/OVJ-169-12-15%20M.A.%20Memon%20et%20al.pdf

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=foggybok;8856422]
http://www.openveterinaryjournal.com/2016/Volume%206%20(1)/OVJ-169-12-15%20M.A.%20Memon%20et%20al.pdf[/QUOTE]

GREAT link! Thanks for posting.

[TwistedLuck]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8851438]
150 hour course for “certification?” And to do WHAT, exactly? Sorry, but I’m not impressed. There’s still not one lick of evidence for chiro or acupuncture, in animals or people. Suggest the lurkers read this link in depth: http://www.doctorramey.com/chiropractic/

OP claimed the “chiro” said her horse’s “sacrum was out of joint,” but he had just recently passed a pre-purchase exam as sound. Main problem seemed to be with flying changes, which to me sounded like a rider issue.

Kind of a bizarre post; sounded like a beginner but claimed to be in training with an “olympic” rider. Whole thing didn’t ring true. I’m betting the post above about buying from Europe hit the mark.

What bothers me about the “alternative” stuff is that I see people wanting to use supplements, herbs, chiro, etc. INSTEAD of paying the money to get the horse properly worked up by a good lameness vet, and then seen by a good trainer. This does a great disservice to the horse, and is a major mistake when you could be dealing with something like EPM or other neurological or metabolic issues. It also gets a lot of horses judged NQR when they are perfectly fine, but just need a more positive ride, better shoeing, or whatever.

I have personally seen a DVM “chiropractor” claim to Dx “ulcers” via pressing a pencil eraser in the brisket area–an “acupuncture point” debunked long ago. The horse was in vibrant health, on 24/7 grass turnout at the time of over a year’s duration and not even in work. Best eater in the field and borderline obese! So we’ll have to agree to disagree but I see way too many snakes being oiled by these people.[/QUOTE]

" Main Problem" was NOT with flying changes, which is a basic movement both he horse, and I, are quite capable of. I said it was one of the things we had been avoiding doing so as not to strain the injured area further, as some of the muscles needed for the movement have been strained, as confirmed by a veterinarian.

[merrygoround]

Lady E-I haven’t used chiro for horses, and for years I poo-pooed it for humans. That was until after a particularly nasty fall, with back muscles in spasm, I finally went to one. First he sent me for radiographs, then he treated me, with a combo of massage and whatever. Voila! I could move again. I have not ever found another chiro his equal.

Some people can’t boil water, others can produce a 3 course dinner in 15 min. (almost)