Tori is champion at talent search finals

[ybiaw]

[QUOTE=Simba27;8345175]
Tori may have ridden well, but I have lost all respect for her as a rider and horsewoman. I suspect many other people feel the same way[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t necessarily say that I’ve lost respect for her as a rider, because I think she is a lovely rider. I just feel indifferent about her now. I heard about her winning the USET and I just went, “Meh.” I raise an eyebrow at all of her past accomplishments, especially in the hunter ring, and now instead of singing her praises I just shrug with indifference, frustration, and distrust.

The bloom is off the rose, for sure, but I won’t take away from the fact that she IS a talented rider.

[OnDeck]

…

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=Simba27;8345175]
Tori may have ridden well, but I have lost all respect for her as a rider and horsewoman. I suspect many other people feel the same way[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you can place the blame for the Inclusive debacle squarely on Tori’s young shoulders. She is, in many ways, a product of her environment, and has been completely immersed in this environment for many years. Those closest to her and those who have the greatest amount of influence on her condone the use of drugs and calming supplements to the point that it’s as ordinary as using a hairnet. When a child is brought up in that type of environment, it’s not always readily apparent to the child that this practice is as black and white as we see it. For goodness sakes, it her mother who is very obviously participating in this. And they appear to be very close. Personally, I feel that Tori is being “used” by the adults around her even more so than the horses. Shame shame shame on them.

[Sunflower]

The Phase IV results http://usefnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/00/00/00/15/44/2015+ts+finals+east+-+phase+iv+results.pdf
are interesting-- to see who rode which horse best.
Tori and Mckayla tied on Skyfall.
Tori the best on Any Given Sunday
Hunter the best on Kaskade
Tori the best on Avalanche.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8345370]
The Phase IV results http://usefnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/pdfs/00/00/00/15/44/2015+ts+finals+east+-+phase+iv+results.pdf
are interesting-- to see who rode which horse best.
Tori and Mckayla tied on Skyfall.
Tori the best on Any Given Sunday
Hunter the best on Kaskade
Tori the best on Avalanche.[/QUOTE]

Interesting…Tori is the only one that got the high score on her own horse. For all the other riders…someone else (or more than one other rider) scored higher on their horse.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345308]
That wasn’t the point of my comment.

This is about the larger issue of punishments being a mere slap on the hand in many cases. So there should be no surprise that people will risk cheating if punishments don’t have much weight or if “stays” enable some people to still get what they want regardless.

The industry is a mess as many others have stated, but it doesn’t appear to be betting much better regardless of what little things USEF or other organizations are doing.[/QUOTE]

The stay was issued by a US court. The USEF had nothing to do with it.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think the point was also made in one of the other threads speculating about how many teenagers would be able to walk away from sponsorship like what Tori has, if they were aware of doping/drugging going on?

She may very well have been the best rider this weekend, but I can totally see how doping may have given her career a HUGE boost. Let’s say the Perfect Prep (plus whatever else) gave her a competitive edge that helped her get a huge number of wins. That is the kind of thing that can get someone more visibility, increases the probability of obtaining more/better sponsorship, etc.

[QUOTE=Flash44;8345339]
I don’t think you can place the blame for the Inclusive debacle squarely on Tori’s young shoulders. She is, in many ways, a product of her environment, and has been completely immersed in this environment for many years. Those closest to her and those who have the greatest amount of influence on her condone the use of drugs and calming supplements to the point that it’s as ordinary as using a hairnet. When a child is brought up in that type of environment, it’s not always readily apparent to the child that this practice is as black and white as we see it. For goodness sakes, it her mother who is very obviously participating in this. And they appear to be very close. Personally, I feel that Tori is being “used” by the adults around her even more so than the horses. Shame shame shame on them.[/QUOTE]

[Sunflower]

Judging no doubt has a subjective element, no matter how consciously objective judges try to be. They are human after all. How much does the “name” of a rider impact the judging, positively, negatively or otherwise? If two riders give similar rides, does it make a difference if one is a known name and the other not? There is probably no way to make an anonymous equitation judging scheme-- but-- if numbers instead of names were used, would it make a difference in the perception that judges have of riders?

[DoubleTwistedWire]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345406]
I think the point was also made in one of the other threads speculating about how many teenagers would be able to walk away from sponsorship like what Tori has, if they were aware of doping/drugging going on?

She may very well have been the best rider this weekend, but I can totally see how doping may have given her career a HUGE boost. Let’s say the Perfect Prep (plus whatever else) gave her a competitive edge that helped her get a huge number of wins. That is the kind of thing that can get someone more visibility, increases the probability of obtaining more/better sponsorship, etc.[/QUOTE]

Does she even have the viable option of walking away? She’s essentially been a minipro since she was in pigtails and bows. This experience on BP’s horses has been her education and apprenticeship. It’s not like she was doing shows on her weekends while attending Andover. Granted, the smart thing for her to do, knowing that she can ride the pants off all the riders in her age group, would be to take a few years and go get a business degree so she can actually run her business one day like an actual educated business person. It would also give her a few years away from the less than positive folks who have been running her life to their own benefit. Sadly, I doubt that will happen.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8345416]
Judging no doubt has a subjective element, no matter how consciously objective judges try to be. They are human after all. How much does the “name” of a rider impact the judging, positively, negatively or otherwise? If two riders give similar rides, does it make a difference if one is a known name and the other not? There is probably no way to make an anonymous equitation judging scheme-- but-- if numbers instead of names were used, would it make a difference in the perception that judges have of riders?[/QUOTE]

I think some amount of bias is unavoidable. I’ve experienced it myself back when I taught at the university level. I found myself more forgiving of known good students’ mistakes and less so for those who were having trouble in the class. After my first exam, I moved to a different format where I folded the cover page back and proceeded to grade. Only at the end when tabulating results did I know how the names and scores matched up.

I think it would be difficult to judge a BigEq class based on rider number vs. name because many of the top riders are so well known they would be easily recognizable.

[staceymc]

[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;8345426]
Granted, the smart thing for her to do, knowing that she can ride the pants off all the riders in her age group, would be to take a few years and go get a business degree so she can actually run her business one day like an actual educated business person.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on this point 100 times over. It never fails to amaze me the number of horse professionals who have no concept of running their business LIKE A BUSINESS.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;8345426]
Does she even have the viable option of walking away? She’s essentially been a minipro since she was in pigtails and bows. This experience on BP’s horses has been her education and apprenticeship. It’s not like she was doing shows on her weekends while attending Andover. Granted, the smart thing for her to do, knowing that she can ride the pants off all the riders in her age group, would be to take a few years and go get a business degree so she can actually run her business one day like an actual educated business person. It would also give her a few years away from the less than positive folks who have been running her life to their own benefit. Sadly, I doubt that will happen.[/QUOTE]

To walk away from what she has with Betsee Parker would take a HUGE amount of courage and integrity. I don’t think many people Tori’s age would be able to do it. My suspicion is that Tori knows what is going on, may even feel bad about it, but realizes this is the only way to get the experience and visibility she needs in order to have a career in this industry.

I hope one day she can be in a position where she can stand up for the horse and call the shots (i.e. no doping).

[DoubleTwistedWire]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345435]
To walk away from what she has with Betsee Parker would take a HUGE amount of courage and integrity. I don’t think many people Tori’s age would be able to do it. [/QUOTE]

Oh, I didn’t even mean from an integrity viewpoint. I mean that she’s been on the road on the show circuit since she was what, elementary school aged? Sure, she’s probably been on some kind of online school program, but what kind of education has she really gotten that’s prepared her to do anything other than ride horses? Does she even really have the option of walking away and going to get a business degree at UF or something? She’s been groomed to take over the riding business the way Trump groomed his kids to help run his business empire, but at least there, they ended up going to Wharton in the process.

[Sunflower]

Some more perspective on the Phase IV work off scores
Tori, highest score 92, lowest 88
Hunter, highest score 92, lowest 80
McKayla, highest score 90, lowest 83
TJ 88, 79

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345435]
To walk away from what she has with Betsee Parker would take a HUGE amount of courage and integrity. I don’t think many people Tori’s age would be able to do it. My suspicion is that Tori knows what is going on, may even feel bad about it, but realizes this is the only way to get the experience and visibility she needs in order to have a career in this industry.

I hope one day she can be in a position where she can stand up for the horse and call the shots (i.e. no doping).[/QUOTE]

Good points. I don’t know about you all, but when I was in my late teen, I was still very immature. Plus, it was a very tumultuous time wrt physical and social and psychological changes for me. My parent taught me right from wrong, and believe me, when I chose wrong I did everything possible to hide it from my parents. But what if my parents told me that wrong was right??? From a young age??? What then???

A kid who’s been in this pressure cooker of a horse show world where the people he or she most looks up to and depends on are those that either directly or indirectly let the child know that it’s OK to use these questionable and illegal practices to gain an edge with the ultimate goal of winning - how is that kid supposed to know “right” from “wrong” in this situation?

Just like people get duped into making bad financial decisions, maybe the kid’s been “sold” on the use of these substances, and convinced by the adults on whom she is dependent that it’s OK.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8345503]
Good points. I don’t know about you all, but when I was in my late teen, I was still very immature. Plus, it was a very tumultuous time wrt physical and social and psychological changes for me. My parent taught me right from wrong, and believe me, when I chose wrong I did everything possible to hide it from my parents. But what if my parents told me that wrong was right??? From a young age??? What then???

A kid who’s been in this pressure cooker of a horse show world where the people he or she most looks up to and depends on are those that either directly or indirectly let the child know that it’s OK to use these questionable and illegal practices to gain an edge with the ultimate goal of winning - how is that kid supposed to know “right” from “wrong” in this situation?

Just like people get duped into making bad financial decisions, maybe the kid’s been “sold” on the use of these substances, and convinced by the adults on whom she is dependent that it’s OK.[/QUOTE]

+100

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345406]
She may very well have been the best rider this weekend, but I can totally see how doping may have given her career a HUGE boost. Let’s say the Perfect Prep (plus whatever else) gave her a competitive edge that helped her get a huge number of wins. That is the kind of thing that can get someone more visibility, increases the probability of obtaining more/better sponsorship, etc.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure 95%+ of the horses she’s competed against are also getting various pharmaceuticals injected pre-competition… not just Perfect Prep tubes.

I realize a Colvin horse is the one who got caught, but to start clutching our pearls and saying how unfair it is for the other riders… that’s absurd. Whatever you think about it doesn’t change the fact they’re all doing it. Tori just rides them better, which is why she wins.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=jhg140;8345632]
Pretty sure 95%+ of the horses she’s competed against are also getting various pharmaceuticals injected pre-competition… not just Perfect Prep tubes.

I realize a Colvin horse is the one who got caught, but to start clutching our pearls and saying how unfair it is for the other riders… that’s absurd. Whatever you think about it doesn’t change the fact they’re all doing it. Tori just rides them better, which is why she wins.[/QUOTE]

If that’s the case then it’s not that different in principle from Lance Armstrong and the rest of the competitors in the Tour de France. He was doping, first skirted the issue (“I never tested positive”) and then later admitted it. A lot of his teammates also admitted to doping. Other competitors, like Ulrich, were also caught doping. I imagine most people in the top 10 were and probably much deeper than that.

[Tackpud]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8345398]
Interesting…Tori is the only one that got the high score on her own horse. For all the other riders…someone else (or more than one other rider) scored higher on their horse.[/QUOTE]

Actually, McKayla tied for high score on her own horse, Skyfall, with Tori - they just highlighted the wrong horse as being her ride and TJ’s ride. TJ’s horse was Kaskade.

[MtnDrmz]

Out of curiosity, has there been any annoucements made in regards to Tori attending Universty or even considering it? I don’t think I seen any

The older I get, the easier it is to spot the trainers who have had some sort of higher education under their belt. Not every one of them is winning everything at indoors, but the way they handle their business- from client interaction, to marketing, to how they react (or don’t react) when issues come up - is often times coming out of a different perspective.

The horses will always be there for Tori, and I for one hope that she persues some kind of higher education along side the horses.