On the other hand, if an athlete is at the top of their sport/game at age 17 or 18, it may not be the best option to take four years off to go to school. In that time, they would likely lose some of their edge and there would be some other up & comer whose name would be easily recognized. Four years is a long, long time in a sport where one mishap could end a career.
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8345259]
Well that would certainly make you seem all grown up and I’m sure everyone at these companies would totally take you seriously. Because everyone knows that it’s completely appropriate to harass a kid on the Internet.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think she’s being harassed.
At 17 this “child,” who’s at the very top of the sport and lives in the saddle knows exactly what the horses she rides are being given. Anyone who thinks differently, is naive. While this “child” may not have control over what the adults in her circle administer to her horses, she absolutely knows that it’s being done.
I agree with others that her wins are now tainted. As to what degree is in the eyes of the beholder. But if you take a “child” who it appears has been showing prepped horses for quite some time, you can’t help but take all her accomplishments with a grain of salt.
That being said, everyone will have forgotten about this whole spectacle in about 6 months.
[QUOTE=jmjhp;8344935]
I think tori needs to get away from her mother. She seems to be the root of the problem.[/QUOTE]
I think this is incredibly unkind. The USEF and the judicial system will impose appropriate sanctions but to suggest that a child is better off without her mother, when you do not personally know either of them, is uncalled for.
[QUOTE=222orchids;8345822]
I think this is incredibly unkind. The USEF and the judicial system will impose appropriate sanctions but to suggest that a child is better off without her mother, when you do not personally know either of them, is uncalled for.[/QUOTE]
I think everyone is a part of the problem. Parents, owners, trainers, show management, course designers, the judging system, etc.
On a related note, I plugged the numbers into Minitab so I could do different types of plots. There’s not that much data to look at, but examining score vs. run order is interesting. Some horses clearly got better with each ride through the course and others were up and down depending on who was riding. If I had a way to post it I’d include the graphic, but I don’t see a way to attach pictures.
[QUOTE=jhg140;8345632]
Pretty sure 95%+ of the horses she’s competed against are also getting various pharmaceuticals injected pre-competition… not just Perfect Prep tubes.
I realize a Colvin horse is the one who got caught, but to start clutching our pearls and saying how unfair it is for the other riders… that’s absurd. Whatever you think about it doesn’t change the fact they’re all doing it. Tori just rides them better, which is why she wins.[/QUOTE]
What is sad about this post is that so many are in fact prepping in ways that literally and/or figuratively violate the rules AND that its general knowledge AND that little to nothing effective is being done to stop it.
BTW agree with the last sentence!
[QUOTE=OnDeck;8345335]
I’m sorry, this is off topic, but am I reading this correctly? Someone went in a kimberwick at Talent Search finals? :eek: I did see the photos of one being used at THIS finals… but Talent Search? I’m not a fan of any one rein leverage bit to begin with, but I cannot imagine trying to get through the gymnastics phase with any sort of finesse in that bit. Maybe on a jumper with a tough mouth, but on a horse that looks anything like an finals quality equitation mount? Trying to get a horse out from behind the leverage of that bit in the middle of that course is making me cringe just thinking about it.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know. If a kimberwicke is good enough for Beezie Madden and Simon, I think it’s ok in the jumper ring…
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8345297]
To me…she is still a junior. Any controversy etc. should be aimed at the adults in her life. For now…she is a lovely junior rider. What will make her a great horseman/trainer and rider is what she accomplishes as an adult with her own program. And as a junior…she is a few years away from that.[/QUOTE]
Actually she doesn’t have a few years left! This is her last junior year, and I believe she has already turned 18. So technically she is no longer a child under the law, albeit still a jr. under USEF rules.
[QUOTE=Madeline;8345890]
I don’t know. If a kimberwicke is good enough for Beezie Madden and Simon, I think it’s ok in the jumper ring…[/QUOTE]
I agree. My horse went in a kimberwicke for many years, it was the only bit that controlled him and he was a hunter.
[QUOTE=Janeway;8345928]
Actually she doesn’t have a few years left! This is her last junior year, and I believe she has already turned 18. So technically she is no longer a child under the law, albeit still a jr. under USEF rules.[/QUOTE]
She is 18 now. Just recently had a birthday.
[QUOTE=jhg140;8345632]
Pretty sure 95%+ of the horses she’s competed against are also getting various pharmaceuticals injected pre-competition… not just Perfect Prep tubes.
I realize a Colvin horse is the one who got caught, but to start clutching our pearls and saying how unfair it is for the other riders… that’s absurd. Whatever you think about it doesn’t change the fact they’re all doing it. Tori just rides them better, which is why she wins.[/QUOTE]
THANK YOU. It’s all well and fine to debate where USEF should draw the line with its “prepping” standards and how much artificial aids should be used to create the horse you want (lunging?, pro rides?, spurs?, crops?, dodas?, weighted boots?, joint supplements?, joint injections?, bute? - all of those things can change the way a horse rides just as much, if not more than, calming supplements/drugs), but let’s not pretend that anything which was done to any of Tori’s horses is different than what is done to the vast, vast majority of her competition. It’s just naivete to think that Tori’s wins have anything to do with her having a “cheating” edge vis a vis her competition.
[QUOTE=Janeway;8345928]
Actually she doesn’t have a few years left! This is her last junior year, and I believe she has already turned 18. So technically she is no longer a child under the law, albeit still a jr. under USEF rules.[/QUOTE]
18 is still a kid in my book. 18-30 as young adults are still learning their way. I wouldn’t have “respect” yet for someone that age (as a horseman or whatever) as they just haven’t been alive and around long enough to earn it. I’ll appreciate their athletic accomplishments…but that isn’t the same. Most respected horsemen/woman have been at it over 40 years. I meant junior in life terms…not in competition terms.
Well I am 19 years old. I know I’ve never been in the situations that Tori has been in but I do not consider myself as a child. I try to take responsibility for my actions. If my mount at a show were to be drugged (and I knew about it), got caught, and I were suspended, I would accept that punishment.
However, I don’t think I’d be in that situation first because I don’t agree with drugging, and second I cant ride at the moment due to health issues.
I’m not saying that Tori is an awful person or anything. I’m disgusted at the lack of action that the USEF has taken. I’m not naive and I do know that drugging is a common issue within all disciplines.
I just can’t believe that they were caught, all of the information came out, but nothing was done. How was this punishment? This is telling every other competitor “make sure not to sign as trainer! But GABA/drugging is ok, the horse and rider can still show!” It’s frustrating
I know I’m haven’t fully matured yet, and I do understand that I don’t have much experience in the horse world simply because of how many years I’ve been alive. I get it. But id probably get sick if someone were to defend me after screwing up by saying “She’s just a child, she doesn’t know any better!”
So, you must be a part of TC’s inner circle? Glad you’re here, there are probably a lot of questions for you.
Or perhaps you are making statements based off of assumptions that may or may not be true. Here is an absolute for you: making absolute statements from assumptions just makes you look like a fool.
What action is the USEF supposed to take that is actually within their power to take? USEF did not have any rules in place to take action against Tori. A governing body can’t just make rules after the fact. The rules have to be in place prior to the infraction.
Disagreeing with someone is one thing, but saying they look like a “fool” is another and completely unnecessary.
[QUOTE=RugBug;8346054]
So, you must be a part of TC’s inner circle? Glad you’re here, there are probably a lot of questions for you.
Or perhaps you are making statements based off of assumptions that may or may not be true. Here is an absolute for you: making absolute statements from assumptions just makes you look like a fool.
What action is the USEF supposed to take that is actually within their power to take? USEF did not have any rules in place to take action against Tori. A governing body can’t just make rules after the fact. The rules have to be in place prior to the infraction.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=HDuckie;8346019]
I know I’m haven’t fully matured yet, and I do understand that I don’t have much experience in the horse world simply because of how many years I’ve been alive. I get it. But id probably get sick if someone were to defend me after screwing up by saying “She’s just a child, she doesn’t know any better!”[/QUOTE]
I’m not defending her but im also not blaming her. Not her program or her responsibility. She didn’t lose my respect as a horseman because she hadn’t yet earned that respect. This is an age that I DO start to expect people to begin taking responsibility and yes to start define who they are or will be as a person. But I’m not going to lay the blame for drugging or prepping the horse at the feet of still a junior rider and a rider not writing the checks or in a position to make a lot of decisions other than perhaps if she will swing a leg over that horse. Those are clearly still with many of the adults in her life…and the rules do not tag her with that responsibility either.
nor am I going to blame one rider for the persuasive drugging looking for a quick fix culture that seems to be prevailing in the show industry. Perhaps adopting more of the zero tolerance of the FEI would reduce it some but I also don’t love that either. Honestly this is not something that rules alone will likely change…nor is it new but it does seem a bit bigger of an issue now than years ago.
I learned to ride at one of the few stables in the area here in my area that had hunters/jumpers. After a year of weekly lessons I just rode a hunt seat for fun, the usual kid jumping anything you found to jump over. The hunter/jumper shows were so far away I changed to Western disciplines (Pleasure, Showmanship, Cutting, Trail a few speed events). The only time I ever saw english saddles at shows were the special Arab shows or the shows for 5 gaited horses…and those were always cut back style.
Being a kid at the time I have no idea if drugging went on where I showed. It wasn’t even on my radar. Now with a 6 yr old granddaughter just starting into the hunter/jumper/eventing/dressage world (she wants to do it all of course) …I’m wondering…why exactly do they allow any drugs in horses at shows? I understand some things are legal…but if you have to drug a horse with anything why show them? If we had a sore or sick horse we just didn’t show them. I probably sound uninformed/uneducated…just trying to make sense of things.
Cheryl
[QUOTE=HDuckie;8346019]
Well I am 19 years old. I know I’ve never been in the situations that Tori has been in but I do not consider myself as a child. I try to take responsibility for my actions. If my mount at a show were to be drugged (and I knew about it), got caught, and I were suspended, I would accept that punishment.
I’m not saying that Tori is an awful person or anything. I’m disgusted at the lack of action that the USEF has taken. I’m not naive and I do know that drugging is a common issue within all disciplines.
I just can’t believe that they were caught, all of the information came out, but nothing was done. How was this punishment? This is telling every other competitor “make sure not to sign as trainer! But GABA/drugging is ok, the horse and rider can still show!” It’s frustrating[/QUOTE]
There are a couple things about this situation which people cannot seem to keep straight (not just you, but many people):
-
Tori was not suspended, so she is not “not accepting” her punishment. (Her mother was suspended and got a stay to watch Tori, which is likely where the confusion comes from.)
-
USEF could not have suspended Tori based on its rules at the time. (As RugBug points out.)
-
USEF has subsequently changed its rules so that it could, in the future, suspend someone in Tori’s position (as the rider) in a drug violation. (This rule change, though, cannot be retroactively applied to Tori.)
I have less of a problem with tubapalooza than with all the horses that enter the ring with bleeding holes in their sides. To me that should be automatic disqualification.
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346074]
Disagreeing with someone is one thing, but saying they look like a “fool” is another and completely unnecessary.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t call her a fool. That would look like this: “Dear poster, you are a fool.” Semantics can be tricky, but I like to be precise.
It’s pretty easy to look like a fool…or to not look like one. Anyone can do so at any point. Perhaps I’m looking like a fool now. I certainly know I looked like a fool when I thought I could pull off the leggings-as-pants trend.
Here’s a question that I’m sure we can all say Yes to: People are so quick to point at that at age 17 you are still considered a child but when you are that 17 yr. old how many times did you Insist that You are not a child?!! So I’m not saying that Tori has called herself an adult but I’m sure she’s probably thought it. She felt confident and old enough to tell S.S. that she wasn’t going to do a trainning technique that he wanted her to and in response to that she and her mother were kicked out of the barn.
Horseperson112, what is USEF’s new rule and when was it made?
