Tori is champion at talent search finals

[AffirmedHope]

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8346200]
Here’s a question that I’m sure we can all say Yes to: People are so quick to point at that at age 17 you are still considered a child but when you are that 17 yr. old how many times did you Insist that You are not a child?!! So I’m not saying that Tori has called herself an adult but I sure she’s probably thought it. She felt confident and old enough to tell S.S. that she wasn’t going to do a trainning technique that he wanted her to and in response to that she and her mother was kicked out of the barn.

Horseperson112, what is USEF’s new rule and when was it made?[/QUOTE]

I find the timeline of that and then the horse testing positive for the first time ever shortly after that, while doing everything possible to make sure BC was listed as trainer…interesting, to say the least.

[AffirmedHope]

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8346200]
Here’s a question that I’m sure we can all say Yes to: People are so quick to point at that at age 17 you are still considered a child but when you are that 17 yr. old how many times did you Insist that You are not a child?!! So I’m not saying that Tori has called herself an adult but I sure she’s probably thought it. She felt confident and old enough to tell S.S. that she wasn’t going to do a trainning technique that he wanted her to and in response to that she and her mother was kicked out of the barn.

Horseperson112, what is USEF’s new rule and when was it made?[/QUOTE]

I find the timeline of that and then the horse testing positive for the first time ever shortly after that, while doing everything possible to make sure BC was listed as trainer…interesting, to say the least.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=AffirmedHope;8346206]
I find the timeline of that and then the horse testing positive for the first time ever shortly after that, while doing everything possible to make sure BC was listed as trainer…interesting, to say the least.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and that was touched upon among a few of us a week or two ago in a related thread, but the idea didn’t really take off. I guess it’s much more fun to blame a teenager and her mother for the woes of the hunter world than to stick to the facts as they are documented in court transcripts.

[Horseperson112]

[QUOTE=pepper1986;8346200]
Horseperson112, what is USEF’s new rule and when was it made?[/QUOTE]

GR 404 regarding accountability for drug violations. Added that “persons responsible” could be held accountable, which may include riders, owners, grooms and vets. Approved 6/30/2015, to be in effect 12/1/2015 (start of 2016 competition year.)

Pg. 8 here: https://www.usef.org/documents/ruleChanges/2015/2015RulesApproved63015BODmeeting.pdf

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8346211]
I agree, and that was touched upon among a few of us a week or two ago in a related thread, but the idea didn’t really take off. I guess it’s much more fun to blame a teenager and her mother for the woes of the hunter world than to stick to the facts as they are documented in court transcripts.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Wasn’t the disagreement TC had with Ken at Young Riders…a place where Person Responsible already included the rider? I would still love to know what training technique she refused. Perhaps it was the end of a needle full of something she could be responsible for at that show? Or am I way off base…I can’t remember if that was answered.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8346245]
Yep. Wasn’t the disagreement TC had with Ken at Young Riders…a place where Person Responsible already included the rider? I would still love to know what training technique she refused. Perhaps it was the end of a needle full of something she could be responsible for at that show? Or am I way off base…I can’t remember if that was answered.[/QUOTE]

I haven’t read the transcript in a few weeks, but my impression when I did read it was that it was a technique, not a substance. Maybe something similar to poling? The word “technique” was used, which doesn’t sound like drugs to me. But I could be way off base too.

The discussion I was referring to in my response to AffirmedHope was when everyone was gleefully blaming Brigid for drugging the horse without ever considering the fact that she volunteered herself to be recorded as “trainer” by the drug tester. And that the owner and the other trainer were hell-bent on getting him off the entry form as “trainer” and putting Brigid on there instead. Based on the transcript, I still don’t believe that Brigid knew anything about the horse being drugged on that particular day.

And I’d still love to know how so many here know for sure, beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever, that Tori was aware of it. With the number of horses she rides every day, I doubt she spends any time hanging around the barns helping the grooms get her horses ready. She’s got to be down at the rings all day showing one, hopping off, and getting on the next one.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8346260]
I haven’t read the transcript in a few weeks, but my impression when I did read it was that it was a technique, not a substance. Maybe something similar to poling? The word “technique” was used, which doesn’t sound like drugs to me. But I could be way off base too.[/QUOTE]

Yes…I remember someone, perhaps you, saying this as well. But in the grand scheme of things, when “prep” means drugging, I am not sure that I can preclude “technique” from being a code word used for “drugging” as well.

The discussion I was referring to in my response to AffirmedHope was when everyone was gleefully blaming Brigid for drugging the horse without ever considering the fact that she volunteered herself to be recorded as “trainer” by the drug tester. And that the owner and the other trainer were hell-bent on getting him off the entry form as “trainer” and putting Brigid on there instead. Based on the transcript, I still don’t believe that Brigid knew anything about the horse being drugged on that particular day.

Agreed. There is so much that doesn’t add up there and I just can’t believe she’d readily tell a tester that she was the trainer with all the implications, if she knew the horse was drugged…even if she was supposed to be a patsy.

And I’d still love to know how so many here know for sure, beyond a shadow of any doubt whatsoever, that Tori was aware of it. With the number of horses she rides every day, I doubt she spends any time hanging around the barns helping the grooms get her horses ready. She’s got to be down at the rings all day showing one, hopping off, and getting on the next one.

Exactly. I don’t get the certainty that some people are professing that Tori knew/knows. Perhaps I’m the one looking like a fool because I won’t claim certainty, but that’s okay…

While Tori has claimed to be hands on at home, does she really have time to be at shows? From her schedule it doesn’t seem like it.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8346211]
I agree, and that was touched upon among a few of us a week or two ago in a related thread, but the idea didn’t really take off. I guess it’s much more fun to blame a teenager and her mother for the woes of the hunter world than to stick to the facts as they are documented in court transcripts.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention the people that don’t understand the USEF rules and the hearing process, that suddenly think Tori has won it all because of drugging and do not understand that getting a ‘stay’ has nothing to do with the USEF.

Every once in a while, a subject comes along that shows who actually has a knowledge base to draw from and who just likes to see themselves in type. Always illuminating.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Midge;8346386]
Not to mention the people that don’t understand the USEF rules and the hearing process, that suddenly think Tori has won it all because of drugging and do not understand that getting a ‘stay’ has nothing to do with the USEF.

Every once in a while, a subject comes along that shows who actually has a knowledge base to draw from and who just likes to see themselves in type. Always illuminating.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that most people are blaming the hunter “woes” on Tori and her mom. They are a subject because Tori happens to be very visible in this industry. She is a convenient example of a widespread problem.

I also don’t think that people believe Tori won just because of doping/drugging. I think people believe it gave her an edge. Not unlike Lance Armstrong. He wasn’t the only one doping on his team or elsewhere in the tour…

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346471]

I also don’t think that people believe Tori won just because of doping/drugging. I think people believe it gave her an edge. Not unlike Lance Armstrong. He wasn’t the only one doping on his team or elsewhere in the tour…[/QUOTE]

As I said previously, how can it give her an edge if all of her competitors are also doing it, and probably with injected pharmaceuticals, not just Perfect Prep? That would make the playing field even. The edge is that Tori rides better than everyone else (usually).

[Midge]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346471]
I don’t think that most people are blaming the hunter “woes” on Tori and her mom. They are a subject because Tori happens to be very visible in this industry. She is a convenient example of a widespread problem.

I also don’t think that people believe Tori won just because of doping/drugging. I think people believe it gave her an edge. Not unlike Lance Armstrong. He wasn’t the only one doping on his team or elsewhere in the tour…[/QUOTE]

It’s all over this thread. Minimal understanding of the rules and penalties as well as people thinking she won because she drugged.

[QUOTE=HDuckie;8344535]
I wanted Tori to be the underdog story or whatever but I feel lied to. How many times did they cheat through the ponies? Junior hunters? Maclay?[/QUOTE]

@carroal

I don’t think anyone would deny that she’s the best rider. But how much of her best ride was enabled by drugging the horse?

@carroal

I am not naive. I’m well aware of the culture. The point is that this team has been caught red handed. They cheated. Cheaters will always exist. But this team got caught.

All the abuse is documented. And they are still competing. It’s outrageous.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8344791]
IMHO, the “Inclusive” debacle, highlights the fact even if someone from a team gets caught cheating, they can apply for “stays” (or whatever they are called) to still attend events, etc.

I can see why people will take a chance at cheating because the punishments are so light as to be a mere slap on the hand. It appears easy enough to have a fall guy take the hit too.[/QUOTE]

@Rescuer;8345196

I just want to post comments with #9tubapalooza or “how many tubes of perfect prep got you the win this time Tori?” but I know they’d get edited by the sponsors pretty quick.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8345406]I
She may very well have been the best rider this weekend, but I can totally see how doping may have given her career a HUGE boost. Let’s say the Perfect Prep (plus whatever else) gave her a competitive edge that helped her get a huge number of wins. [/QUOTE]

@Go Fish;8345790

I agree with others that her wins are now tainted. As to what degree is in the eyes of the beholder. But if you take a “child” who it appears has been showing prepped horses for quite some time, you can’t help but take all her accomplishments with a grain of salt.

[SnicklefritzG]

I think you are missing the point. No one is blaming all of hunterdom’s problems on Tori. She’s being held up as an example because she is young, visible, etc.

I also don’t think anyone said “Tori won because she drugged”. That is a very different statement from saying she had an edge because her horses were doped or that her wins are “tainted” in peoples’ minds.

[QUOTE=Midge;8346565]
It’s all over this thread. Minimal understanding of the rules and penalties as well as people thinking she won because she drugged.[/QUOTE]

[Cannonball]

[QUOTE=jhg140;8346541]
As I said previously, how can it give her an edge if all of her competitors are also doing it, and probably with injected pharmaceuticals, not just Perfect Prep? That would make the playing field even. The edge is that Tori rides better than everyone else (usually).[/QUOTE]

To me this is the question/point of all of this mess. I previously believed as you do, that she is just that much better than everyone else. I still am leaning in that direction. But there is a question of whether or not she/they are just better at “prepping”.

Wouldn’t it have been awesome if she would have been above all the crap and still been winning like she does? But like Dags said in the other thread, all this really just proves that the ideal hunter/eq horse only exists in an altered world. Pretty sad!

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Cannonball;8346589]
To me this is the question/point of all of this mess. I previously believed as you do, that she is just that much better than everyone else. I still am leaning in that direction. But there is a question of whether or not she/they are just better at “prepping”.

Wouldn’t it have been awesome if she would have been above all the crap and still been winning like she does? But like Dags said in the other thread, all this really just proves that the ideal hunter/eq horse only exists in an altered world. Pretty sad![/QUOTE]

An artificial construct.

Wasn’t there a debacle some years ago about the Eq horses not being fed properly at finals in order to help keep them subdued?

[Midge]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346585]
I think you are missing the point. No one is blaming all of hunterdom’s problems on Tori. She’s being held up as an example because she is young, visible, etc.

I also don’t think anyone said “Tori won because she drugged”. That is a very different statement from saying she had an edge because her horses were doped or that her wins are “tainted” in peoples’ minds.[/QUOTE]

I never said anything about people blaming all of hunterdom’s problems on tori. And someone did say they thought her wins were a result of drugging. I quoted it.

[vxf111]

Anyone who thinks the “prepping” problem is isolated to a few people/barns is very naive.

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=jhg140;8346541]
As I said previously, how can it give her an edge if all of her competitors are also doing it, and probably with injected pharmaceuticals, not just Perfect Prep? That would make the playing field even. The edge is that Tori rides better than everyone else (usually).[/QUOTE]

i really, really hope that “all her competitors” are NOT using GABA and nine tubes of Perfect Prep and other calming pastes to prepare for one class. I hope there are still many that put the horse first.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Limerick;8346632]
i really, really hope that “all her competitors” are NOT using GABA and nine tubes of Perfect Prep and other calming pastes to prepare for one class. I hope there are still many that put the horse first.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure it is a lot like what the Tour de France was when Lance was still racing. Was he the only one doping on his team? No. A lot of them admitted later to doping. Were there other team doping? Absolutely, judging from the number of people who got busted.

I imagine that Lance’s team was probably better than some at doping and hiding it.

[Horseperson112]

[QUOTE=Cannonball;8346589]
To me this is the question/point of all of this mess. I previously believed as you do, that she is just that much better than everyone else. I still am leaning in that direction. But there is a question of whether or not she/they are just better at “prepping”.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are correct, in addition to her riding skills, Tori and her team are clearly some of the best at prepping their horses to shine in the show ring. Do you know what goes into prepping? When you show, what you show in, when you give it training rides, how you ride it, when and how you give it jump schools, when/if you lunge/hack on show days, when you bathe, when you bring it to the ring, when/if you boot it up, when you take the boots off, when and what you jump prior to going in, how you set your last jump, when you walk to the in gate, when you walk into the ring, how you walk in the ring, how you pick up your canter… all of that (and more) is “prepping” the horse for the ring. No one is as successful as Tori (over and over and over again on horse after horse after horse) without having all of those pieces in place, and anyone who thinks that a calming supplement or drug can make up for what you lack in other areas does not understand what it takes to get a horse successfully to the ring. Yes, calming supplements/drugs are part of the picture for virtually all competitors at Tori’s level, and how to stop/minimize that is the worthwhile debate. But, anyone who believes that Tori’s career was made or got a boost based on calming supplements/drugs either (a) has not watched her ride or (b) is not educated enough to understand what they are watching. And that is the extremely frustrating thing about all of this discourse. Yes, she is simply that good (including, as this past weekend showed once again, on horses not benefitting from her and her team’s prep.)

[jhg140]

[QUOTE=Limerick;8346632]
i really, really hope that “all her competitors” are NOT using GABA and nine tubes of Perfect Prep and other calming pastes to prepare for one class. I hope there are still many that put the horse first.[/QUOTE]

No, they probably have their own cocktail depending on the trainer.

Either that, or they were on the lunge line for an hour.

Just because you watch a round and the horse isn’t perfect, or doesn’t behave like you assume a drugged horse “should”, doesn’t mean they weren’t stuck with the needle.