Tori is champion at talent search finals

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Isn’t that the heart of the disappointment. Why would a team with the right horse, solid foundation in training and a very talented rider NEED to pump such crap into their horse.

Then you add the wacky rules that tag a person who signs a blank on an entry and doesn’t have the teeth to go also go after those that were really the responsible party. Without those teeth in the rules (which I’m not sure you really have under the new rule)…I’m not sure there will be a lot of change other than if you catch ride a horse…you better be very careful who you ride for. Perhaps that will make it harder to find top riders and that will have an impact. As long as the young riders understand the rules and the risk they are taking by swinging a leg over a horse in a show.

[SnicklefritzG]

Exactly. Very good point. Sure Tori is a great rider, but even with all her talent and the expertise in the barn, why did they feel they needed to do this?

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8346668]
Isn’t that the heart of the disappointment. Why would a team with the right horse, solid foundation in training and a very talented rider NEED to pump such crap into their horse.

Then you add the wacky rules that tag a person who signs a blank on an entry and doesn’t have the teeth to go also go after those that were really the responsible party. Without those teeth in the rules (which I’m not sure you really have under the new rule)…I’m not sure there will be a lot of change other than if you catch ride a horse…you better be very careful who you ride for. Perhaps that will make it harder to find top riders and that will have an impact. As long as the young riders understand the rules and the risk they are taking by swinging a leg over a horse in a show.[/QUOTE]

[Horseperson112]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346671]
Exactly. Very good point. Sure Tori is a great rider, but even with all her talent and the expertise in the barn, why did they feel they needed to do this?[/QUOTE]

Because it’s what almost everyone does as a piece of the prep, just the same as hacking in the ring in the morning - you only don’t do it if there’s a reason not to in most instances. I don’t think anyone on here is saying that the fact calming supplements/drugs are standard prep (and let’s be honest, have been for as long as everyone remembers - the substances just change) isn’t something which should be examined and discussed, but that the vilification of Tori/her career in particular just because she’s a high profile name is ludicrous in context.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Horseperson112;8346704]
Because it’s what almost everyone does as a piece of the prep, just the same as hacking in the ring in the morning - you only don’t do it if there’s a reason not to in most instances. I don’t think anyone on here is saying that the fact calming supplements/drugs are standard prep (and let’s be honest, have been for as long as everyone remembers - the substances just change) isn’t something which should be examined and discussed, but that the vilification of Tori/her career in particular just because she’s a high profile name is ludicrous in context.[/QUOTE]

yes. It is shining a light on a dirty secret. That is the point. No it wasn’t SOP for a lot of years even if it has been around for a long time. Sure people know it’s going on…but I think many thought it was by those with less talented riders or less talented horses. But I agree, vilification of Tori is ridiculous. But the stupidity of doping such a talented horse paired with a great rider is obnoxious. I can’t believe that prep really gave a significant edge over what they already had with that horse and rider (and couldn’t have gotten them competitively in the ring with out crap pumped in the horse’s system or other poor horsemanship methods) which just makes the idiots that did it come across like bigger idiots to me. And the lack of significant consequences is very frustrating.

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346640]
I’m sure it is a lot like what the Tour de France was when Lance was still racing. Was he the only one doping on his team? No. A lot of them admitted later to doping. Were there other team doping? Absolutely, judging from the number of people who got busted.

I imagine that Lance’s team was probably better than some at doping and hiding it.[/QUOTE]

CMIIW, but I think Armstrong had a positive test in 1999, then no more positives. Yet he was stripped of his awards going back to 1998.

So you are right - just because there are not positives does not mean it’s not happening.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8346829]
CMIIW, but I think Armstrong had a positive test in 1999, then no more positives. Yet he was stripped of his awards going back to 1998.

So you are right - just because there are not positives does not mean it’s not happening.[/QUOTE]

I think some teams were just several steps ahead of the testers.

Not to hijack the thread but I’m on the fence about Armstrong being stripped of his awards. Just because they now know he was doping (because he admitted it) doesn’t necessarily mean the #2 guy was clean. In fact, he very well may not be.

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=justathought;8345832]
What is sad about this post is that so many are in fact prepping in ways that literally and/or figuratively violate the rules AND that its general knowledge AND that little to nothing effective is being done to stop it.

BTW agree with the last sentence![/QUOTE]

Agree. To say that Dr. Betsee’s horses are the only ones ‘specially prepped’ is naive. The show world is a ‘monkey see, money do’ world. I am not in a position to put a % of the horses who are helped into cantering around like automatons, but just look at the junior hunter classes at the big shows. Most of the horses canter around like the Parker horses.

Tori has extraordinary horses and she is an extraordinarily good rider, so she wins a lot. That does not mean that everyone esle is showing clean’. It just means that her horses are tested more often and if there is a positive result, the visibility is much higher.

Several years ago a 2’6" adult rider had a positive for Carolina Gold. How many people can name that rider?

Don’t get me wrong – I abhor cheaters. But it seems that these multiple threads excoriating Tori have turned into a witch hunt. Instead of focusing on Tori, look at the whole AA hunter culture and condemn everyone who buys into it.

[Darkwave]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8346852]
I think some teams were just several steps ahead of the testers.

Not to hijack the thread but I’m on the fence about Armstrong being stripped of his awards. Just because they now know he was doping (because he admitted it) doesn’t necessarily mean the #2 guy was clean. In fact, he very well may not be.[/QUOTE]

It’s pretty much assumed that all of the top guys in cycling are doping. Just like all of the top sprinters.

I can’t find the link right now, but I read somewhere that one of the years that Lance won the Tour, all of the top five in that race had, at some point in their lives, been set down for doping. It’s truly pervasive in that sport.

Part of the issue there is the culture of the peloton (riders working together) and the domestique - a rider who is in the race for the purpose of breaking the headwind for another rider (to oversimplify). If you’re in a race like that, and you can’t hang on to the pack, you are letting your teammates down and not doing your job. So there’s massive pressure to dope so that you can support your team.

It’s fascinating to read some of the recent autobiographies by top riders. Or to read Jonathan Vaughters’ comments on the subjects (former pro rider who admittedly doped, now trying to run a clean team) - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

[BAC]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8346005]
18 is still a kid in my book. 18-30 as young adults are still learning their way. I wouldn’t have “respect” yet for someone that age (as a horseman or whatever) as they just haven’t been alive and around long enough to earn it. I’ll appreciate their athletic accomplishments…but that isn’t the same. Most respected horsemen/woman have been at it over 40 years. I meant junior in life terms…not in competition terms.[/QUOTE]

For the average person 18 is still a kid, but not for Tori. Did you happen to read this direct quote from Andre in the COTH article covering Tori’s win? [B]He noted that the attribute setting Colvin apart is her "professionalism. She has basically been a professional rider for many years and she brings that perspective to the ring.

[/B]

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=Midge;8346565]
It’s all over this thread. Minimal understanding of the rules and penalties as well as people thinking she won because she drugged.[/QUOTE]

I’ve read MOST of this thread, but not all of it so perhaps I’m missing something. But are you objecting to someone believing that the drugging offences at issue had an impact on Tori’s winning record? Tori is a lovely rider, and it may be that many, many wins were obtained without any chemical help. It may even be the case that she was competing against horses that all had their own chemical enhancements. But at the end of the day, on at least this occasion, her results are tainted. And I don’t think its unreasonable to extend that to other wins/placings. With any degree of certainty? No. But nor do I feel any reason that I should believe it only happened with that one horse, or those few times given the evidence (i.e. the transcript).

I certainly don’t think she would have been last without a little chemical help, the horse is lovely and she rides very well. But I think its reasonable to think that drugging may have enabled her to get an edge, and yes…ultimately win because the horse had been drugged.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Darkwave;8346932]
It’s pretty much assumed that all of the top guys in cycling are doping. Just like all of the top sprinters.

I can’t find the link right now, but I read somewhere that one of the years that Lance won the Tour, all of the top five in that race had, at some point in their lives, been set down for doping. It’s truly pervasive in that sport.

Part of the issue there is the culture of the peloton (riders working together) and the domestique - a rider who is in the race for the purpose of breaking the headwind for another rider (to oversimplify). If you’re in a race like that, and you can’t hang on to the pack, you are letting your teammates down and not doing your job. So there’s massive pressure to dope so that you can support your team.

It’s fascinating to read some of the recent autobiographies by top riders. Or to read Jonathan Vaughters’ comments on the subjects (former pro rider who admittedly doped, now trying to run a clean team) - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all[/QUOTE]

Ulrich had issues with doping as did several other major players. One of the Italian riders came out and did an interview where he talked in detail about all the things he took in order to do well in the stage races. It was crazy.

I think the pressure within pro cycling is well known. Back when I raced in ammy events, there were a few ammies that were known to have doped. It was ridiculous because all that doping would really do is help you maybe get a better classification, but beyond that there’s not much more than an ego boost from better placings or wins. One person on my team used to be a pro in their younger days and talked about all the doping people were doing just to hang on. I don’t think there is much pressure overall in the ammy ranks to do it, but in the pro ranks there certainly is.

For some, the doping and drug use was also about being able to push and train harder and faster so they would be ahead of the game by the time the racing season started.

Regardless of the pressure to dope, it still doesn’t make it right. I hope things are changing, but back in Lance’s day, I think people went in knowing what was going to happen if they wanted to race at the elite level.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=BAC;8346933]
For the average person 18 is still a kid, but not for Tori. Did you happen to read this direct quote from Andre in the COTH article covering Tori’s win? [B]He noted that the attribute setting Colvin apart is her "professionalism. She has basically been a professional rider for many years and she brings that perspective to the ring.

[/B][/QUOTE]

He meant professional in her riding skills and ability to perform under pressure and ride different horses. That is very different than attributing a young person with the decision making skills of all aspects of life of an adult. She very well may be a mature 18 year old but she is still a young person developing into an adult. And not one to whom I would be directing any animosity towards.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=ybiaw;8345331]
I wouldn’t necessarily say that I’ve lost respect for her as a rider, because I think she is a lovely rider. I just feel indifferent about her now. I heard about her winning the USET and I just went, “Meh.” I raise an eyebrow at all of her past accomplishments, especially in the hunter ring, and now instead of singing her praises I just shrug with indifference, frustration, and distrust.

The bloom is off the rose, for sure, but I won’t take away from the fact that she IS a talented rider.[/QUOTE]

Her talent is so much greater than her wins. She is, or will be, as good as Rodney, and he’s the best we have ever had. If you have never seen her get on horse after horse, and they all so willingly do what she asks, you cannot understand. She is more than just a good junior rider.

[Horseperson112]

[QUOTE=BAC;8346933]
For the average person 18 is still a kid, but not for Tori. Did you happen to read this direct quote from Andre in the COTH article covering Tori’s win? [B]He noted that the attribute setting Colvin apart is her "professionalism. She has basically been a professional rider for many years and she brings that perspective to the ring.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Here is the full quote so others don’t misinterpret the context:

[INDENT]He noted that the attribute setting Colvin apart is her “professionalism. She has basically been a professional rider for many years and she brings that perspective to the ring. If things don’t go perfectly in the schooling ring, she can leave it behind, walk in, and deliver.”
[/INDENT]

The gist of this quote is that Tori has the ability to handle the stress of a high pressure situation and the nerves that accompany that better than other riders due to the fact she’s been in those situations so many times before. Nothing to do with her mental and emotional maturity other than in the particular high-pressure competition context.

This quote actually weighs against your argument; child prodigies in all areas (music, math, sports) actually tend to be less emotionally mature even though they can perform phenomenally in their area of excellence due to the fact they do not have normal upbringings and are not treated normally by either adults or their peers. (Not saying Tori is or isn’t emotionally mature, just that it’s not a cohesive argument.)

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8347007]
Her talent is so much greater than her wins. She is, or will be, as good as Rodney, and he’s the best we have ever had. If you have never seen her get on horse after horse, and they all so willingly do what she asks, you cannot understand. She is more than just a good junior rider.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure a lot of people would agree with you on the part about her talent, but it is too bad that she was caught riding doped horses.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=Flash44;8345339]
I don’t think you can place the blame for the Inclusive debacle squarely on Tori’s young shoulders. She is, in many ways, a product of her environment, and has been completely immersed in this environment for many years. Those closest to her and those who have the greatest amount of influence on her condone the use of drugs and calming supplements to the point that it’s as ordinary as using a hairnet. When a child is brought up in that type of environment, it’s not always readily apparent to the child that this practice is as black and white as we see it. For goodness sakes, it her mother who is very obviously participating in this. And they appear to be very close. Personally, I feel that Tori is being “used” by the adults around her even more so than the horses. Shame shame shame on them.[/QUOTE]

What no one here gets is that, left up to Tori, she prefers a little pep and has NO problem managing that. And still get a beautiful ride. And what exactly would you have get do, even if she knows, and I am not convinced that she does? Refuse to ride it? Stand up to the adults who are in charge? Part of her talent, and why she wins, is her supreme confidence in her abilities, and how horses react to her. Not an ego, just the way it has always been for her. So, in her mind, no need for any of this, so doesn’t expect it. Do you REALLY think it can’t be hidden from her? You all need to back off until it is Tori on the hot seat. And don’t hold your breath.

[Horseperson112]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8347007]
Her talent is so much greater than her wins. She is, or will be, as good as Rodney, and he’s the best we have ever had. If you have never seen her get on horse after horse, and they all so willingly do what she asks, you cannot understand. She is more than just a good junior rider.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree. Repeating myself here, but anyone who believes that Tori’s career was made or got a boost based on calming supplements/drugs either (a) has not watched her ride or (b) is not educated enough to understand what they are watching. Does the sport have a disconnect between what is technically allowed in terms of calming agents and what is practiced? Absolutely. But, this incident does not diminish Tori’s riding record and abilities in the eyes of anyone who can fully appreciate seeing her ride.

[BAC]

@Horseperson112;8347013

Here is the full quote so others don’t misinterpret the context:
[INDENT]He noted that the attribute setting Colvin apart is her “professionalism. She has basically been a professional rider for many years and she brings that perspective to the ring. If things don’t go perfectly in the schooling ring, she can leave it behind, walk in, and deliver.”
[/INDENT]

The gist of this quote is that Tori has the ability to handle the stress of a high pressure situation and the nerves that accompany that better than other riders due to the fact she’s been in those situations so many times before. Nothing to do with her mental and emotional maturity other than in the particular high-pressure competition context.

I disagree with your interpretation, I think she has a mental and emotional maturity beyond her years in addition to being able to handle the stress of competition and I think that is what Andre meant.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8345790]
I don’t think she’s being harassed.

At 17 this “child,” who’s at the very top of the sport and lives in the saddle knows exactly what the horses she rides are being given. Anyone who thinks differently, is naive. While this “child” may not have control over what the adults in her circle administer to her horses, she absolutely knows that it’s being done.

I agree with others that her wins are now tainted. As to what degree is in the eyes of the beholder. But if you take a “child” who it appears has been showing prepped horses for quite some time, you can’t help but take all her accomplishments with a grain of salt.

That being said, everyone will have forgotten about this whole spectacle in about 6 months.[/QUOTE]

And, with all the winning she does, show after show, year after year, meaning she would get tested A LOT, isn’t it interesting, if that is her team’s program, that it isn’t caught until the end of her junior career? How is that possible? Could it be that the teams were, for the most part, pretty clean, and this debacle is not the norm for her horses. Because, to hear you all, and the tainted wins she must now have, all her horses must be on something the whole time.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8347037]
And, with all the winning she does, show after show, year after year, meaning she would get tested A LOT, isn’t it interesting, if that is her team’s program, that it isn’t caught until the end of her junior career? How is that possible? Could it be that the teams were, for the most part, pretty clean, and this debacle is not the norm for her horses. Because, to hear you all, and the tainted wins she must now have, all her horses must be on something the whole time.[/QUOTE]

Well, let’s not go THAT far. It could also be that they guessed correctly that USEF is using a threshold for GABA levels and they were careful to try to stay under it.