It looks like Paul found a stallion prospect. That is one expensive foal! Now we wait and see if he turns out to be that spectacular. I’m wondering where he will be raised. Does he get turned out on the North Sea?
Call me a skeptic but it generates excitement around his own stallion. Would he have done the same if he didn’t take such a hit on Totalis’s popularity?
[QUOTE=stoicfish;6595350]
Call me a skeptic but it generates excitement around his own stallion. Would he have done the same if he didn’t take such a hit on Totalis’s popularity?[/QUOTE]
I just think how this is an example of why we can’t rely on average prices at auction. One super-sale can jack the average price quite a lot!
I’d like to know the median price.
This!! Definitely a marketing ploy to keep an almost forgotten stallion in breeders’ minds. Totilas who?? 
[QUOTE=siegi b.;6595646]
This!! Definitely a marketing ploy to keep an almost forgotten stallion in breeders’ minds. Totilas who?? :)[/QUOTE]
Have breeders really forgotten about Totilas already? What’s the consensus been on what he produces?
Is there any video of Total Recall? I couldn’t find any on the auction website.
I do wonder if that sales price was something “agreed upon” with a wink before the auction.
[QUOTE=jdeboer01;6595693]
…I do wonder if that sales price was something “agreed upon” with a wink before the auction.[/QUOTE]
This. In spades.
Catalogue;http://oldenburger-pferde.net/de/auktion/auktion/auktionen/77.eliteauktion_fohlen.html
Results;
Horses; http://oldenburger-pferde.net/upload/Aktuelles/VHA_12.pdf.
Foals; http://oldenburger-pferde.net/upload/Aktuelles/VHA_12_Fohlen.pdf
Where is the name of the seller ?
Let’s see - “forgotten stallion” Totilas has a stud fee of 8000 Euros. So Paul only had to sell 25 Totilas breedings to pay for this colt. I’m guessing he easily sold that many.
I sure do like the colt’s damline - he is from the highly regarded Weissena line, and his sister by Don Schufro was Champion Mare at Rastede and Oldenburg State Champion in 2008, then took bronze at the 2009 Bundeschampionat. And I believe she is the dam of a licensed stallion by Sir Donnerhall I.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6595784]
Let’s see - “forgotten stallion” Totilas has a stud fee of 8000 Euros. So Paul only had to sell 25 Totilas breedings to pay for this colt. I’m guessing he easily sold that many.
I sure do like the colt’s damline - he is from the highly regarded Weissena line, and his sister by Don Schufro was Champion Mare at Rastede and Oldenburg State Champion in 2008, then took bronze at the 2009 Bundeschampionat. And I believe she is the dam of a licensed stallion by Sir Donnerhall I.[/QUOTE]
Yea but how much did he pay for the stallion again?? :winkgrin:
I bet he has sold more than 25 breedings and I would also bet that his friends with really nice mare get a huge discount. An 8k price tag for a relatively unproven sire only makes sense with the huge hype to go with it. Like Hicksteads stud fee. But without the hype…
So he would have to be a better sire than all the rest by a whole bunch for that price tag to make sense. He is probably a good sire but 8K…
[QUOTE=ahf;6595731]
This. In spades.[/QUOTE]
Who was he bidding against? They’d have to be in on it too.
German breeders are not afraid to use an unproven stallion - as mentioned many times on this forum and others, unproven stallions in Germany routinely get 300-500 or more mares each year the first few years they are breeding - although not at this price, to be sure.
No one but the PS operation and the Linsenhoffs know how many mares Totilas attracted, but if he got 300 breedings per year in 2011 and 2012, he has brought in 4.8 million Euros. And that doesn’t include the doses of frozen semen - not sure how many that would be, but I know JY sold out, so the frozen is definitely in demand. And while PS might give “deals” to top mares, I doubt there would be enough of them to significantly reduce his income. So if Totilas has already brought in around 5 million Euros over the past few years, he might end up paying for himself.
And this particular colt’s sky-high auction price may tempt even more breeders to try him. Probably a good marketing move on Paul’s part. :lol:
Breeder/seller was Dr. Jobst Hartmann.
http://oldenburger-pferde.net/upload/Auktionen/77_Eliteauktion_Fohlen/110_VHA_12.jpg
I remember when the auction catalog came out and I saw this colt, I said “Wow”, so I am not at all surprised he was the auction topper. Hope he can live up to the great expectations.
And I too would love to know who he was bidding against. Some seriously deep pockets sometimes show up at those auctions.
Will also add that sometimes a top selling foal lives up to its promise. About 6 years ago, another colt sold at the Vechta auction for what was then a record price in Germany (110,000 Euros). That colt went on to win the Oldenburg stallion licensing a couple of years later. And then he won the Bundeschampionat a few years after that. He is now a very, very popular stallion in Germany. His name is Furstenball. http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/362912
Paul made a shrewd marketing move to pump up interest in his stallion, and at the same time, bought himself a dream.
It is not unusual that a foal is sold just prior to the auction, in fact most of the times an hour of so before. Then it gets into the auction and the new owner hopes on a better price then he had bought it for, or in this case the new owner uses it as a marketingtool to promote his stallion.
The latter assumption is however not proven by facts.
[QUOTE=why not;6596531]
It is not unusual that a foal is sold just prior to the auction, in fact most of the times an hour of so before. Then it gets into the auction and the new owner hopes on a better price then he had bought it for, or in this case the new owner uses it as a marketingtool to promote his stallion.[/QUOTE]
I believe most of the Verband auctions require that once the horse is consigned to the sale, it cannot be sold except in the auction. It is also my understanding that the Verband pays the consignor, not an unofficial “new owner”. The “new owner” thing could be tricky to manage, and the Verbands would not want to get in the middle of a dispute between consignor, unofficial new owner, and the buyer.
here’s a photo of the colt…
seems to me we have another photo around here somewhere. Sorry about the quality of the photo, it was a very small png file that I had to convert to a jpeg. The foal is lovely.
About the price being a bit “enhanced” … it may well be to some extent. Time will tell. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time this has happened, and the world still turns. If you speak with most anyone, about most any horse auctions, they have stories to tell of how the price was manipulated one way or another. It happens, probably more than we all know. We view sales like this with a grain of salt. IF the foal fulfills his potential, great! In some respects high profile sales are good for the market in a general sense, i.e., it’s good for all breeders that any foal could be valued so highly.
As for whether “breeders have forgotten about Totilas already”… implicitly because he and his current rider are not yet in sync with each other (or, more straightforwardly, because he is no longer being ridden by Edward Gal)… I find that hard to believe that breeders are that fickle. If Totilas was the right stallion for your mare three - four years ago, he is still the right stallion for your mare. Fact is, Totilas has done what no other stallion in competition has ever done… so the performance record is solid, and he is not a fluke of an otherwise crappy pedigree. Rather, he is an excellent reflection of his sire (who has produced many many good horses) and the generations before him. One may not like how Totilas is being managed under saddle, but if a serious breeder ever thought that Totilas suited their mare, nothing has changed about the genetic material passed on. I don’t think there are enough foals on the ground yet, nor are enough of his offspring of riding age, to say what kind of sire he’ll be, one way or the other.
here’s a photo of the colt… a bit fuzzy
seems to me we have another one around her somewhere. the foal is lovely.
About the price being a bit “enhanced” … it may well be to some extent. Time will tell. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time this has happened, and the world still turns. If you speak with most anyone, about most any horse auctions, they have stories to tell of how the price was manipulated one way or another. It happens, probably more than we all know. We view sales like this with a grain of salt. If the foal fulfills his potential, great! In some respects high profile sales are good for the market in a general sense, i.e., it’s good for all breeders that any foal could be valued so highly.
[QUOTE=Cartier;6596545]
seems to me we have another photo around here somewhere. Sorry about the quality of the photo, it was a very small png file that I had to convert to a jpeg. The foal is lovely.
About the price being a bit “enhanced” … it may well be to some extent. Time will tell. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time this has happened, and the world still turns. If you speak with most anyone, about most any horse auctions, they have stories to tell of how the price was manipulated one way or another. It happens, probably more than we all know. We view sales like this with a grain of salt. IF the foal fulfills his potential, great! In some respects high profile sales are good for the market in a general sense, i.e., it’s good for all breeders that any foal could be valued so highly.
As for whether “breeders have forgotten about Totilas already”… implicitly because he and his current rider are not yet in sync with each other (or, more straightforwardly, because he is no longer being ridden by Edward Gal)… I find that hard to believe that breeders are that fickle. If Totilas was the right stallion for your mare three - four years ago, he is still the right stallion for your mare. Fact is, Totilas has done what no other stallion in competition has ever done… so the performance record is solid, and he is not a fluke of an otherwise crappy pedigree. Rather, he is an excellent reflection of his sire (who has produced many many good horses) and the generations before him. One may not like how Totilas is being managed under saddle, but if a serious breeder ever thought that Totilas suited their mare, nothing has changed about the genetic material passed on. I don’t think there are enough foals on the ground yet, nor are enough of his offspring of riding age, to say what kind of sire he’ll be, one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. However, IMO the stud fee is simply silly. It’s all hype.
I don’t have my catalog any longer, and I can’t find the auction prices.
Does anyone know how much the brother of Fire and Ice went for? (I think it was a full brother).
Thanks.
61 De l’Europe (De Niro - Lord Liberty - Riesling)
The full sibling to Fire and Ice sold for10,000 euro to USA
For those that don’t know: From Eurodressage.com
Fire and Ice (by De Niro x Lord Liberty)
Oldenburg Breeding News
The 3-year old Fire and Ice was named the Oldenburg mare champion of the 2011 Brilliant Ring at the Oldenburg Elite Mare Championship held at the historic Royal Stud of the Graf Anton von Oldenburg in Rastede, Germany on 20 - 24 July 2011.
Fire and Ice was sired by De Niro and is out of St.Pr.St. Free Life (by Lord Liberty x Riesling). She is bred by Dieter Scherwitzki and owned by Rudolf Flass, who purchased her as a Foal at the 2008 Oldenburg foal auction. She earned excellent scores of 8.5 on her canter and 8.0 on her trot in
her Mare Performance Test as well as a 9.0 for her walk resulting in an
8.10 overall score.
