What they have is a lot of rubbery, loose joints. This horse’s movements are not appealing to me
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WTF! Craycray!
I believe that was sarcasm?
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Have you even read the thread?
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Did you or alicen read the discussion between Jeff Moore and Dr. Mary Giddens? Neither of them is a fan of the leg-flinging that is the winning trend currently; Dr. Giddens in particular is concerned about what effects this might have on the breed. I should think her opinion ought to carry a bit of weight in the Dressage forum.
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How old is that horse?
So… A couple thoughts from an amateur just about confirmed at 3rd, and schooling most of 4th… I’ve also ridden multiple saddleseat horses.
IMO, dressage and saddleseat are far more similar than most people would LIKE to think. I actually find that, when you get down to it, a correctly trained saddleseat horse is an absolute joy to ride. They’re not abused, they’re exceptionally free through the shoulder and built to move that way. Their necks are set on top of their shoulders, rather than into it. You do not need to force the trot or head position. You can refine them, but those aspects are there completely naturally. Saddleseat and big lick are not at all the same. The training methods used on walkers do NOT work on trotting horses.
Likewise, with these fancy moving horses, you don’t have to like it. It doesn’t have to be your thing. But it DOES take a skilled hand to work with that level of extravagance and build the strength and conditioning needed for these horses to execute. Like saddleseat, you can’t just have them flinging legs everywhere, there’s a level of awareness and control you need to teach them over these movements or they’ll hurt themselves. It takes time and patience. Are they maybe dipping into saddleseat training methods? I don’t know, but as my horse has become more expressive in his gaits, I’ve found that saddleseat has a much longer history with teaching horses how to be extravagant but aware of control during extreme range of motion than dressage does. I would say this is a horse still developing that strength and awareness. While I’m no Edward Gal, through creative use of lateral work, I’ve gotten the squatty hind end with extreme shoulder freedom up front for brief intervals (clearly to a much milder extent than Total US). Not intentionally, but I’ve done it. It’s entirely possible to produce that kind of motion without resorting to cruelty. If I can do it to a mild degree experimenting with how I’m mixing up transitions and lateral work, I see no reason an incredibly experienced professional can’t produce it to an extreme degree with a horse infinitely more talented than my own without resorting to cruelty. Rollkur is a whole 'nuther question, and I’m not touching that here.
We’re not breeding the same horses we were 20-40 years ago. We’re breeding far more athletic horses, and we do need to adapt to the horses we’re producing. The modern horse is far more powerful, freer through the shoulder, more elastic… Classical methodology is a great foundation, but there are also freaks of nature that I’d say we’re still learning to manage and train. Look at dressage tests from the early years and how it’s evolved. The sport has evolved as much as the horses have.
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IMO, we’re (general) breeding for movement rather than brains. I’ve felt this way about Warmblood breeding awhile. Yes, some people are still seeking out "ammy friendly* types. We are breeding more athletic horses, but at what cost? Are we still considering health and soundness of both mind and body?
I don’t feel like we need to adapt to these leg movers with a disconnected front and hind end. Nope. We need to remember to ride correctly, really. A horse should be able to have some sit (for collection) and use its hind end, it shouldn’t be going around all squatty and weird.
I can really appreciate some of these powerful athletic movers, but I cannot appreciate those that are blinded by movement or legs flinging around. We have to still consider correctness, relaxation, rhythm, unity between the front and hind, etc.
Totilas would not be my pick for a breeding, but I have seen some decent offspring and I am not going to knock anyone for making that choice.
I did see some article relating modern dressage to saddle seat and how we’ve shifted our seat/balance back more leading to more dropped backs and a few other things. I didn’t necessarily agree with all of it, but it’d be fairly relevant to this thread if I could find the darn thing again.
Just a reminder: Both Valegro and Totilas have been at the top of their game.
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The problem is that the “squatty hind end” is there when the horse (Total US) is in the halt. Which suggests it’s conformation rather than training. Akin to the lowered hips of the German Shepherd which became the winning showing standard and is now to my knowledge banned.
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In October 2019, he was 7yrs old.
So 8yrs ish now?
You can see at the end of the video TU is quite excited.
It’s a young horse, he has yet to be able to control all his movements and, as expected at this stage, lack some strength. So yeah, he’s flinging his legs a bit all over - Edward while staying pretty quiet has his hands (and seat) full if I may say to keep control of that beast.
As for the little weird discussion between Mary Giddens and Jeff Moores that’s going viral right now… Meh.
Is this even a true conversation? Really, with all the smilies… doesn’t sound serious to me at all.
Anyway, we’ve heard that ad nauseam, nothing new under the sun.
ETA: Regarding « Osierlea’s » facebook post… I looked at the website and videos. Yeah… Nope. Someone who cites Gerd Heuschmann… Nope.
Is Mary Giddens aware he’s showing off that private conversation?
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What does that have to do with dressage?
(just kidding, total sarcasm, and thank you, I do think people need that reminder once in a while)…
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lol—I would argue he has fairly strong stifles, SI, and soft tissues–as they can stand up to the weird movement. I said it was hard on them, not that his are weak! 
Nor do I think Gal has necessarily used cruelty to achieve this. Not my preference, sure, but not cruelty.
I stand by my statement that I am not a fan, and his movement looks unnatural to me. I am not an EG/HPM fan in general, I don’t care for how their horses go, I don’t care for how they ride, and I don’t care for how their sponsors breed. But nevertheless, I am not playing in that world, so my opinion doesn’t matter much. I ride my little Thoroughbreds and Gelderlanders and enjoy it.
It does sadden me, however, that the quest for ever-more fantastic gaits and athletic horses is moving towards this freak of nature type of horse. Whether you want to believe it or not, there will be consequences for this down the line–it may not be an issue for GLOCKs of the world, for whom money and preventive/therapeutic care is a nonissue, but keeping horses like this sound will be difficult. There is an upper ceiling to what we can ask the equine body to do and sustain over time, and we will hit it.
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Genuine question from a very amateur dressage rider: what makes Total US’s movement award-winning? I see rhythm but not relaxation, and I thought tracking up with the hind was desirable, but his trot seems short. It looks so different than anything I’ve ever learned to strive for that I have to be missing something, and I hate not knowing things. :lol:
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He is tracking up.
He’s a young horse at that level and yes, he’s indeed tense because of the atmosphere, his age and his inexperience.
People are expecting a made up horse, a robot at 8-9 yrs old. Yes, there are flaws, yet Gal is « containing » all this power/movement and does so in a quiet manner.
Like any normal young horse, he overdoes whatever is being asked… Like my mare when she did her first 1m jumper course and showed off some of her potential by jumping as high as the standards for freakin’ no reason… sigh.
Give Total US a few years…
He’s just starting at that level.
To those who go up the levels, your horses are never tense, acting up and flinging their legs everywhere?
You are lucky…
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Another genuine question, because I AM seeing paddling. In your opinion (likely much more educated than mine), is this a conformational issue or a young horse control issue?
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I believe in his case it is mostly just a young horse issue.
Who cares about paddling anyway? Certainly not all those Iberian horses. Fuego anyone?
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Sure they do…but a) they don’t look like freaky spiders when they do it, because they don’t have weirdly hypermotile front ends and crouchy hind ends, and b) they don’t get 81% scores when they do it. Perhaps I am more perturbed by how well the test is rewarded, than I am by the horse being nervous and spastic. It was definitely a hell of an atmosphere to get used to. But IMO, 81% was…a bit much. He got that score because of the extravagant gaits, not because it was an incredibly executed test.
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What was so wrong with the test?
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