Re paddling and Iberians. I have seen paddling in both breeds. It is true that it was desired in the Spanish breed and is more prevalent there. I have a horse that paddles gasp and he is quite sound and tbh it isn’t so bad, but it is a lot more noticeable when he is tense and not relaxed. I don’t necessarily agree with breeding for paddling at all, but it is a fault that I, as a non breeder, can live with in my horses. I can think of worse things.
As stated above–I was quoting MysticOak’s previous post:
no one ever comments on paddling when it is an Iberian horse?
And I’m not sure why you are so quick to take offense. I do not “look down my nose” at Iberians and my comment was certainly not intended as an insult. As a matter of fact, my warmblood is being sent over the Bridge today and my next horse will be an Iberian.
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Thank you for the clarification. I think that I mistook the tone of your post. My apologies.
I am sorry to hear about your warmblood being sent over the Bridge. God speed.
I will gladly enable you in your Iberian search :lol:
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I agree; it’s not really a statement on Gal’s ability so much as it is on the fact that his deep-pocketed sponsor provides him with several elite-level prospects every year. Ergo, it’s not at all surprising that he’s going to have at least one real contender at the top on a regular basis.
Very true that some horse/rider combinations just don’t mesh. Some would say Rath and Totilas are the preeminent example, but I have wondered if maybe that misfire was in part due to bad timing - maybe Rath got the ride at a time when Totilas really needed a break from the rigors of maintaining competition fitness. It seemed like Schockemohle forgot that Toto isn’t a machine… Who knows, but it’s nice to see a 20 year old horse still enjoying his job.
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Gal wouldn’t have such string of sponsors if he wasn’t a very good rider. So it is a statement of his abilities.
And even more if related to the Rath’s saga.
but I have wondered if maybe that misfire was in part due to bad timing - maybe Rath got the ride at a time when Totilas really needed a break from the rigors of maintaining competition fitness…
It’s wasn’t much about bad timing.
No one wanted to take the ride on Toto.
Talk about pressure.
Rath was just an « inexperienced » rider and had, at first, a very different training approach.
It is said that it takes at least a year to really bond with a horse, yet Rath was propulsed on the dressage scene.
Those who rode GP schoolmaster can attest, few are of the pushed buttons type.
We ought to also remember that Toto started his job in the breeding shed at the same moment.
His new « personality » emerged… and I believe it’s more that (+ the shows) who led him to lameness issues.
No one knew how it would affect him.
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THANK YOU, @CanteringCarrot ! This was the sort of info I was looking for.
I guess early on there was benefit to crossbreeding, but not so much anymore. THANK YOU for your knowledgeable input!!
I think many Lustitanos also remain stallions. I asked the clinician (world champion at Working Equitation and rides mostly stallions) if his show horses also breed. He said that they weren’t the quality that people want to breed to/aren’t up for breeding but most males are kept stallions. He explained that the culture on the baroque-type horses is that they keep the mares pregnant and the stallions intact, and that there are few great “show” mares or geldings or stallions. I didn’t realize this, but was informative. You have just confirmed this to me - thank you! I didn’t realize this but certainly learned something.
Yes, I know that they struggle with extension, as I’ve seen many baroque horses try international dressage (some quite successfully). They can canter in a teacup and cast shade to the warmbloods, but they don’t extend their gaits. I watched this clinician ride an attendee’s lusitano horse with the long bamboo pole and I thought “oh, my warmblood can’t do such turns, and he could complain”. It was really beautiful to watch, though, and involved precise footwork. I was sooooooooooooo impressed!
Thank you for your response to my inquiry!!! I soooooo appreciate it because I don’t know much at all about Iberian horses and breeding but have questions.
Yes, Totilas needed a break, which is why he was sold at that time. Gal got everything out of that horse and increased his price tremendously, not much else to achieve. Totilas was maxed out. Schockemohle arrived at the very right time financially. His stud fees at the time prove this. Rath got to ride the fall-out. Again, horses can’t be pushed like Totilas was and remain sound and happy in the work.
That said, Rath got the ride on a superstar like Totilas when Tolitlas was burnt out. There isn’t anything unusual about this except for the names involved. Rath got an opportunity. So did his father. So did Gal. This is what dressage is now.
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Totilas was never in the breeding shed under Gal.
Totilas wasn’t burnt out when he was sold. He was, as much as we can say, sound and happy in the work.
It’s the breeding, the difference of training and the 4 episodes of periostitis that happened in 5 yrs that made them pulled the plug on him.
Totilas was bought because Germany wanted an Olympic horse for London.
As a side note, you know that horses do get injured at home with minimal training.
As a matter of fact, I know of more horses injured under low level trainers and AA owners.
You do sound like an old broken record sometimes.
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Totilas has over four dozen KWPN offspring listed on HorseTelex that were born in 2011–i.e., conceived before the sale to PS in late 2010.
PS’ reasons for buying Totilas were, as you said, to secure a top Olympic prospect for Germany, but also to gut the Dutch team of their very real prospect of topping the Germans on the London podium. And to hopefully make a lot of money on him as a breeding stallion–not sure that desire has been fulfilled but the horse has/is proving decent success as a sire of mares, stallions, and performance offspring.
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A great reference for this question is to read Sylvia Loch’s "Royal Horse of Europe"
Yes, sources say different than what you post. Of course you chalk it up to me “sounding like an old broken record”, that fits your narrative better and the insult probably made you feel better.
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I wrongly thought he hadn’t bred before being sold, but this article says otherwise. Still, he on’y started breeding not long before he was sold. https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/dressage/dressage-sensation-totilas-sold-to-paul-schockemohle-302861
PS’ reasons for buying Totilas were, as you said, to secure a top Olympic prospect for Germany, but also to gut the Dutch team of their very real prospect of topping the Germans on the London podium. And to hopefully make a lot of money on him as a breeding stallion–not sure that desire has been fulfilled but the horse has/is proving decent success as a sire of mares, stallions, and performance offspring.
Yep.
But I surely didn’t say all Iberian horses paddle - mine was simply a genuine question. Some do paddle, and it never brings up negative comments. It is context - your post implies “all” Iberian horses are purposefully bred for that trait. And they are not. I was using Iberian the way I would use Warmblood - a general statement about several breeds or horses of similar type. And I will stand by the statement - paddling (and winging) is seen in many different breeds/types of horses. And it isn’t always conformation - it can be the result of training, tension, and farrier work.
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Agreed that paddling has a lot to do with development and training/conditioning.
Horses with tight pectorals, and/or tight shoulders can paddle more, especially when “over ridden”.
As they loosen up and open up the chest, the paddling diminishes.
I have had several horses change the flight pattern of their forelimbs gradually, as a result of changing how they use their sling muscles.
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MysticOak, my comment was this (post #106):
Although it (paddling) is not an issue in the show ring, it is not desirable in a breeding animal because the propensity can be passed down to the offspring. That is why it is so prevalent in Iberians–breeding stock that paddled were/are routinely bred together, therefore the trait continues to be fairly common in Iberians.
I used the term “Iberian” because your original post about paddling (post #80) quoted Alibi’s post #77, who said this:
Who cares about paddling anyway? Certainly not all those Iberian horses. Fuego anyone?
Although I do not think that my use of the terms “prevalent” and “fairly common” imply that it is in ALL Iberians, I am sorry that some folks interpreted my comments that way. I certainly was not trying to offend Iberian fans (of which I am one).
