Totilas

[ladyj79]

@alicen

And what was it about his confirmation that predisposed him to issues?

weak hind end. both he and gribaldi. it was commented upon by the judges at the licensing for both stallions in NL.

[ladyj79]

@J-Lu

Since this comment has become a joke to some, I’ll mention that a Sport Horse vet has criticized some WB lines for producing horses that move “like German Shepherds” and how hard on the back/soundness that movement often is.

I used this exact phrase on coth a few years back regarding some dressage lines I saw while living in NL. I was soundly roasted here, but it’s really not debatable. That said, it’s not wide spread, but it happens.

[raff]

They are supposed to sit. That horse is conformationally fine. Also confOrmation and DesperadoS :lol:

[AZ_TD]

@Jenerationx

Here’s the only conformation shot I can find.

http://stallionai.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/totilas_standfoto.jpg

Does not look like a German Shepard to me!😀 Funny how some people criticize horses for just moving their legs and not lowering haunches and when they see the horses lowering haunches then criticize that.

[Jenerationx]

I don’t know the higher levels of dressage, just from a little eventing here and there when I’d cross over from hunters, but the movement in of Total US does seem odd to me. Like the hind end is more lifting up than forward to cover the ground. I can’t say whether it’s correct or not because it does seem to get rewarded, but it does look unnatural to my eye.

[DownYonder]

@MysticOakRanch

Paddling is not an issue unless it causes interference or restricts reach. That is actually in USDF’s guidelines, even when analyzing the trot in DSHB competition. I agree - no one ever comments on paddling when it is an Iberian horse?

Although it is not an issue in the show ring, it is not desirable in a breeding animal because the propensity can be passed down to the offspring. That is why it is so prevalent in Iberians–breeding stock that paddled were/are routinely bred together, therefore the trait continues to be fairly common in Iberians.

I would hate to see warmblood breeders adopt the same mentality as Iberian breeders and ignore the issue when selecting stallions for their mares. Otherwise it will be as common in future generations of warmbloods as in Iberians. Luckily at least some of the European breeding organizations are watching for it during stallion licensings and rejecting young stallions that paddle unless the stallion approaches “exceptional” in every other way.

[pluvinel]

@DownYonder

…That is why it is so prevalent in Iberians–breeding stock that paddled were/are routinely bred together, therefore the trait continues to be fairly common in Iberians.

I would hate to see warmblood breeders adopt the same mentality as Iberian breeders and ignore the issue when selecting stallions for their mares. Otherwise it will be as common in future generations of warmbloods as in Iberians. …

Um…please get your “iberian” teminology correct.

That statement is as insulting as calling Canada just another northern American state…or painting all of South America with the same brush as “hispanic”…rest assured Brazilians would not be happy being called Colombians…or Argentinians…or…or…or.

For a long time the SPANISH bred their horses with certain desired traits…grey color was one…and paddle was considered “flashy” so also considered a desired trait.

This was until the selectors from the Spanish Riding School stud showed up to purchase some Spanish stallions (remember the origin of the SRS is with Spanish horses) and were told that paddling is not desireable.

The “flashy” gaits as a breeding goal was NOT in the PORTUGUESE (APSL) studbook. That studbook chose their breeding stock by the horse demonstrating functional properties as a working cattle horse.

There is currently a big controversy as to whether the functional qualities of the Portuguese Lusitano are being diluted by breeding out the functional aspects of the animal by selecting and orienting their breeding stock towards dressage competition.

[MysticOakRanch]

@DownYonder

Although it is not an issue in the show ring, it is not desirable in a breeding animal because the propensity can be passed down to the offspring. That is why it is so prevalent in Iberians–breeding stock that paddled were/are routinely bred together, therefore the trait continues to be fairly common in Iberians.

I would hate to see warmblood breeders adopt the same mentality as Iberian breeders and ignore the issue when selecting stallions for their mares. Otherwise it will be as common in future generations of warmbloods as in Iberians. Luckily at least some of the European breeding organizations are watching for it during stallion licensings and rejecting young stallions that paddle unless the stallion approaches “exceptional” in every other way.

Not going to repeat Pluvinel’s comments - Iberian is multiple breeds. But also realize that the PRE (Andalusian, aka the Spanish horse) was purpose bred to wing - and it took a lot of generations to create that, and you really only see it in soe of the lines, they don’t all wing. But - also realize a lot of Warmbloods also wing. It is not anything new in sport horses.

And realize it can be more then a breeding issue - it is often a foot balance issue, a shoeing issue, even a training issue.

[alibi_18]

Totilas’ next son should be named
« Total Shepherd »

or « Top Paddling » if it’s a daughter!

« Too Critical » would just be an awesome name.

[Denali6298]

It’s possible to respect the stallion and hate his movement. I personally hate his movement. I never understood why people like it. As someone said up thread it is reminiscent of the TWH breeding for exaggerated gaits. Doesn’t make me wrong, it doesn’t make those who like him wrong. It just is.

[Mara]

@J-Lu

Not really. I don’t love or hate him, but he’s a very competitive person.

And he gets so many good horses that he has the leeway to screw up with a few here and there; most don’t have a sponsor like Glock.

[CanteringCarrot]

@DownYonder

Although it is not an issue in the show ring, it is not desirable in a breeding animal because the propensity can be passed down to the offspring. That is why it is so prevalent in Iberians–breeding stock that paddled were/are routinely bred together, therefore the trait continues to be fairly common in Iberians.

I would hate to see warmblood breeders adopt the same mentality as Iberian breeders and ignore the issue when selecting stallions for their mares. Otherwise it will be as common in future generations of warmbloods as in Iberians. Luckily at least some of the European breeding organizations are watching for it during stallion licensings and rejecting young stallions that paddle unless the stallion approaches “exceptional” in every other way.

This post is a bit ignorant. I think they Pluvinel and MysticOak did a good job explaing why.

While I appreciate you’re insult toward “Iberians” and it’s fine if you want to look down upon them, your opinion, but please get the facts straight.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹I could argue about warmblood breeders valuing flash and movement over brains, but I can’t find my flame suit at the moment.

[cardinale]

Lowered haunches from conformation, i.e. genetically determined greater angulation in joints of the hindquarters that is present from birth, must have significant implications for biomechanics and potentially for soundness, vs. achieving lowered haunches via years of training to gradually increase collection and shift the center of gravity rearwards.

[Manni01]

@Mara

And he gets so many good horses that he has the leeway to screw up with a few here and there; most don’t have a sponsor like Glock.

Maybe he got a Sponsor like this for a reason?? Usually these Sponsors pick their riders carefully!

[ladyj79]

@Manni01

Maybe he got a Sponsor like this for a reason?? Usually these Sponsors pick their riders carefully!

sure, he’s a very very good rider with top results. Yet it’s totally acceptable not to particularly care for his methods or the end product.

As lots of people don’t like other riders or training methods.

Sometimes a particular horse and rider just don’t mesh.

That’s why upper level horses are bought and sold by owners, and why riders are similarly hired and fired by sponsors.

[J-Lu]

@Mara

And he gets so many good horses that he has the leeway to screw up with a few here and there; most don’t have a sponsor like Glock.

He gets results. Your mileage will vary with this statement.

[J-Lu]

@pluvinel

Ooooo, ooooo, maybe you can answer some questions for me!

My friend recently sold his SWB/Andalusion (?) cross for dressage. I helped him understand the bloodlines. The Swedish part was easy. The Andalusian part was really interesting because this line was bred in Mexico by a wealthy rancher, who made American baseball famous in Mexico and was inducted into the Mexican Baseball Hall of Fame. This rancher imported and bred bullfighting stock, some of whom made it to bullfighting in the Zocalo in Mexico (HUGE big deal). He also imported Spanish stock and bred them to imported Portuguese stock and made his own line early in the 1900s that was apparently very popular. His horses were very successful at bullfighting. When his business wound down, he sold his line to a couple of breeders in the US, who kept those crosses “alive”. My friend’s Dam was from this line.

What do you know about Spanish/Portuguese crosses? This guy in Mexico made them famous MANY years ago -they seem be be considered smart and agile and trainable, blending the best of both worlds. Do people consider these crosses today or do people keep them separate?

How would you characterize the difference between the Spanish bred horses and the Portuguese bred horses?

It is more interesting as I currently do clinics in Working Equitation with a guy from Germany at a local lusitano farm, and see more lusitanos. Advanced ones can canter in a teacup. Except for my friend’s 17+ hand lusitano, who is busy keeping his parts together.

Thanks!!!

[DownYonder]

@pluvinel

Um…please get your “iberian” teminology correct.

That statement is as insulting as calling Canada just another northern American state…or painting all of South America with the same brush as “hispanic”…rest assured Brazilians would not be happy being called Colombians…or Argentinians…or…or…or.

For a long time the SPANISH bred their horses with certain desired traits…grey color was one…and paddle was considered “flashy” so also considered a desired trait.

This was until the selectors from the Spanish Riding School stud showed up to purchase some Spanish stallions (remember the origin of the SRS is with Spanish horses) and were told that paddling is not desireable.

The “flashy” gaits as a breeding goal was NOT in the PORTUGUESE (APSL) studbook. That studbook chose their breeding stock by the horse demonstrating functional properties as a working cattle horse.

There is currently a big controversy as to whether the functional qualities of the Portuguese Lusitano are being diluted by breeding out the functional aspects of the animal by selecting and orienting their breeding stock towards dressage competition.

I was quoting MysticOak, who stated this in a previous post:

no one ever comments on paddling when it is an Iberian horse?

Sorry I didn’t take the time to specify SOME Iberians such as Spanish-bred.

[DownYonder]

@MysticOakRanch

Not going to repeat Pluvinel’s comments - Iberian is multiple breeds. But also realize that the PRE (Andalusian, aka the Spanish horse) was purpose bred to wing - and it took a lot of generations to create that, and you really only see it in soe of the lines, they don’t all wing. But - also realize a lot of Warmbloods also wing. It is not anything new in sport horses.

And realize it can be more then a breeding issue - it is often a foot balance issue, a shoeing issue, even a training issue.

Well, yes. But I was simply quoting your previous post.where you used the term Iberian.

no one ever comments on paddling when it is an Iberian horse?

[CanteringCarrot]

@J-Lu

@pluvinel

Ooooo, ooooo, maybe you can answer some questions for me!

My friend recently sold his SWB/Andalusion (?) cross for dressage. I helped him understand the bloodlines. The Swedish part was easy. The Andalusian part was really interesting because this line was bred in Mexico by a wealthy rancher, who made American baseball famous in Mexico and was inducted into the Mexican Baseball Hall of Fame. This rancher imported and bred bullfighting stock, some of whom made it to bullfighting in the Zocalo in Mexico (HUGE big deal). He also imported Spanish stock and bred them to imported Portuguese stock and made his own line early in the 1900s that was apparently very popular. His horses were very successful at bullfighting. When his business wound down, he sold his line to a couple of breeders in the US, who kept those crosses “alive”. My friend’s Dam was from this line.

What do you know about Spanish/Portuguese crosses? This guy in Mexico made them famous MANY years ago -they seem be be considered smart and agile and trainable, blending the best of both worlds. Do people consider these crosses today or do people keep them separate?

How would you characterize the difference between the Spanish bred horses and the Portuguese bred horses?

It is more interesting as I currently do clinics in Working Equitation with a guy from Germany at a local lusitano farm, and see more lusitanos. Advanced ones can canter in a teacup. Except for my friend’s 17+ hand lusitano, who is busy keeping his parts together.

Thanks!!!

I know this wasn’t addressed to me but I am going to make a few comments anyway :winkgrin: with the disclaimer that there is probably someone out there that knows more than me.

It wouldn’t be hugely abnormal in earlier years for Lusitanos and Andalusians to be crossed. The stud books “officially” split in the mid 1900’s (1960 maybe?) and Lusitanos officially got their name. Some are of the thought that they are/were genetically the same horse. I still see some crosses from time to time, but they are not so common.

There are some Lusitanos and Andalusians that side by side you wouldn’t be able to guess who is who. For whatever reason I have an Andalusian gelding that many guess as a Lusitano first. His head is slightly Roman nosed, but not severely (but I LOVE a good Roman nose). I don’t know that there would be huge benefit to cross breeding them nowadays as you can likely find what you like about an Andalusian in a Lusitano and vice versa if you shop around a bit. I keep an eye on a certain dealer in Spain that I’ve bought from previously, and every once in awhile there is a Lusitano Andalusian cross, so they are out there, but I am not sure of the interest, and I don’t think they bring as high of a price tag.

IIRC the Lusitano can be a bit taller, less compact and baroque, and more likely to have that lovely convex style head. Some say they are the “hotter” of the two breeds, but I have a Andalusian that would beg to differ :lol: And as with any breed, certain lines pass on certain types such as super compact, more knee action, docile temperament, etc. I have seen more taller Lusitanos for sale in the recent years.

Some say that the Lusitano stayed more true to its bull fighting origin as the Andalusian became more of a parade/royalty horse.

Interesting factoid: Many Andalusians remain stallions and were bred to be good minded stallions because a king must ride a stallion, and most kings did not know how to ride. Therefore, a good natured stallion was key when finding a suitable mount or gift for a king. :winkgrin:

The whole stallion culture is just different amongst Lusitanos and Andalusians. You’ll find many more intact males for sale than geldings a lot of the time. Of course, one can easily change that, but I am not put off by stallions when it comes to these breeds.

It is reasonably true that both breeds excel at collection but can (but not always!) struggle with extensions. As working horses/bull fighters, this agility was necessary. To be able to sit, adjust, and turn quickly.

I “switched” from Warmbloods to Iberians a few years back, and I honestly wish I’d done so sooner! Love them! Nothing compares. But I do understand they are not everyone’s cup of tea.