Also wanted to mention - FWIW - there are a few Totilas colts in the upcoming Oldenburg stallion selections.
Totilas / Rohdiamant / Pik Bube I / Wendekreis
Totilas / Acord’s Champion / Aloube / Jar ox
Totilas / Krack C / Ferro / Variant
The selections will be held Oct. 10 - Oct 15, so it will be a few weeks before know if any of them made the cut and will go on to the main licensing in Nov.
I kind of chuckle to myself over the assumption that if you have the $$ to breed to T, you automatically have a top tier mare. Personally, I think they have kind of “shot themselves in the foot” by setting the fee so high.
Whose assumption?
An astute breeder who isn’t totally barn blind won’t make that assumption, and while I am sure PS is happy to take people’s money, he is certainly capable of knowing which mares are top tier and which ones aren’t. No doubt there are a certain number of breeders who don’t have TOP mares that were willing to pay the fee, but I am betting owners of the cream of the crop mares got a deal of some sort. And I wouldn’t be surprised if some of those deals revolve around PS getting the best colts, or at least a partnership in them.
And, FWIW - PS is presenting 8 colts in the upcoming Oldenburg stallion selections, but none of the Totilas colts are his.
The Totilas / Sir Donnerhall colt mentioned earlier may have been deemed by PS to not be what he wants to put forward for licensing (for whatever reason), so he is going in the AOS auction.
Could it be that, for fear he will not reproduce himself, they are loading up on what they can earn from him now, while all the hype is still fresh?
I do think a high stud fee would limit the number of lower quality mares they have to deal with. It sure won’t stop someone with big pockets and no eye for horseflesh from inquiring, but I use a similar philosophy to limit the amount of rif-raf that comes to us for sales and it does work to weed out a lot of the lesser quality animals.
I’m with DY on this. The jury will be under considerable pressure to place this colt well in the up coming stallion gradings.
[QUOTE=kdavies;7173500]
Totilas - Sandro Hit mare (born 2011)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENXBU_nmTdk[/QUOTE]
This one looks like it will mature into a Super riding horse. Good ‘pieces’ & quite pleased with herself.
[QUOTE=horsey1cr;7178369]
Nothing to add to this^^ Really good post Rodawn.[/QUOTE]
Secretariat comes to mind
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7180036]
Very cool news. So from that very, very small group of 2011 Hanoverian colts by Totilas, they selected the ONE that was presented. It will be really interesting to see if he get licensed. My guess is it will be hard for them to turn him down, unless he is a real dud.[/QUOTE]
He will be licensed. I will bet $$ on it. He would have to be a real stinker not to be.
[QUOTE=NoDQhere;7180085]
I kind of chuckle to myself over the assumption that if you have the $$ to breed to T, you automatically have a top tier mare. Personally, I think they have kind of “shot themselves in the foot” by setting the fee so high.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I have no doubt there are people out there who are so enamored with the T.“image” and have the $$, they have bred to him. They are expecting T. to produce himself no matter what the mare is like. Because (and I may be wrong) at this time there are no restrictions on buying his semen.
As far has his stud fee, I think most breeders do keep an eye on the financial aspect of a breeding; at least those breeders who have to sell their “product.” That just makes sense. Which is why (I think) you have a quite afew experienced breeders holding back on breeding to T. and some “impassioned” T-lovers going for it.
I agree that it will take years to see if T. is the real deal as far as a producer; just the same as any stallion. It may take longer because his high stud fee has prohibited the production of a high number of get.
But I can guarantee he WILL have a number of approved sons because
#1 He has been bred to quite a few quality mares in the first few years at least; back when you did had to “apply” to breed to him. And (like most stallion owners) I have no doubt PS & company “court” the owners of the best mares and probably offer some sort of discount.
#2 reason is simply that he is owned by PS & Co. If anyone doesn’t think this carries ALOT of weight doesn’t realize the inner workings & management of top stallions of ANY breed.
#3 He is a well-bred, well-conformed horse himself so one would expect him to produce some quality.
As far as his “rideablity.” Again, I have to point out that Rath, however young he is, is a far better rider than 98% of the ammie buyers here in the US. So will T. produce an ammie ride (which is the biggest market in this country…maybe in Germany as well)?
I’m guessing no, unless the mare brings that to the table. I think his sensitivity, which made him bloom under someone like Gal and sputter under someone like Rath, may be a big issue. But just like horses like Jazz, Ferro, etc. this doesn’t make the stallion BAD, it just limits their use in some breeder’s programs.
Doesn’t matter how great the horse…their greatness can’t be displayed unless you have the rider for it.
Ask me how I know…
Wow some very opinionated posts here!
Not sure if people are jealous or spiteful as I don’t think speculation is very informative!
How many of you have actually seen progeny in the flesh?
As a breeder and owner of 2 Totilas fillies I think I can pass some comment.
Type wise, the older one is similar in type to the mare but that’s not really an issue if you have a good mare to start with and I don’t breed from poorly conformed mares!
He hasn’t produced a “lofty” S line type but would you expect that with his Dutch breeding?? No! So why all the angst and disappointment when he produces along the lines of his own type?? He isn’t exactly super leggy so why would be produce that?
Furthermore, leggy horses might give you the wow YH auction trot but can they sit and piaffe on those spidery legs? Most GP horses atm are “normal” in type - even leaning towards old fashioned with the still strong influence of the D line.
I breed for soundness and good balanced conformation.
Paces… I think he has actually improved the canter in my case, uphill and plenty of spring.
Trot is clear and active, perhaps could have more swing but I will say the older filly certainly has shown sitting ability. On the lunge a “steady” results in a clear tilt in the pelvis and a few cadenced steps. Not bad when you are only 1!
Again I did not breed for a wow trot- the trot can be improved. I bred to T to produce an FEI horse so T’s ability to really engage and have such good balance with piaffe-passage and those canter pirouettes was what I wanted a piece of!!
My original intention was to breed to Gribaldi as he has produced several FEI/GP horses, however his untimely death meant I had to choose something else so I went with Totilas. Yes took a gamble and it wasn’t cheap but I am not disappointed. The real proof will be in 8 years time when hopefully all the $$ training and time will have paid off.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;7181238]
This one looks like it will mature into a Super riding horse. Good ‘pieces’ & quite pleased with herself.[/QUOTE]
And in my eye, very much stamped by Sandro Hit, the damsire … which confirms my observation that the mare paired with Totilas is often quite apparent in the offspring, and that Totilas does not particularly seem to stamp them, although his colour is often inherited.
[QUOTE=Saffi;7181769]
How many of you have actually seen progeny in the flesh?[/QUOTE]
Have to admit I have only seen one in the flesh, but I have also discussed him in some depth with several breeders in Germany, as well as registry officials.
Your point about the ability to do collected work is excellent, and I think may be part of the reason people look at him for their Sandro Hit mares.
Again, time will tell if he can reliably pass on that ability even over mares not so talented in that regard. For now, the word amongst folks in Germany who have seen a plethora of his offspring is that while most of the foals are nice, they are not so spectacular that he can be regarded as “the second coming” as far as a foal-maker goes. And that is a very big factor for folks who breed to sell, even in Germany.
That opinion may very well may change when his youngsters go under saddle and start moving up the levels, IF as a group they demonstrate excellent rideability, trainability, natural ability for piaffe/passage, and other collected work. As it is, we may not get true sense of his worth as a sire for another 10 years or more.
It will be interesting to see what the registries do with his first sons being presented for licensing in the coming months. Only one was presented to Hannover, and selected for the licensing, and I am betting he is pretty nice. Unless he totally flops at the licensing event, he will get licensed. There are three being presented at the Oldenburg selections next month - we will see how many of those make the cut. And I think there are also several being prepped for the Danish selections. It will make for an exciting couple of months. 
I also think the whole breeding business is so geared towards producing young horse classes and licensing winners as opposed to producing foals with a GP future.
Yes of course some of the young horse winners make it thru to GP but let’s face it… The majority head to the breeding barn after licensing. So we still have to wait 10 years to see if they can produce GP horses.
Donnerhall was a disappointment as a foal and has left a dynasty. And perhaps we so t see the T influence until his sons produce eg like De Niro, Don Frederico etc.
The fact that T went to fewer mares was possibly a disservice to the horse… Think about it, how many Furstenball or Sir Donnerhall or ?? foals are out there??? Heaps!!! Yet there is still plenty of average foals (movement/type/?) by popular stallions…it’s just the overall number is high, so in numbers-terms there are more nice foals. T has fewer foals all up so fewer “nice foals” but possibly the same proportions.
I didn’t mention in my previous post but both my T fillies appear to be quite trainable. They adapt to new experiences quickly and are accepting of a what is asked but have enough spark that they are not dull and lifeless!
I have always thought if you want a GP horse you should breed to a GP horse! At least you know it had the goods to make it!! Likewise if you want a YH candidate breed to a YH winner/ YH producer.
Totally agree. The issue is not, is T. “stallion worthy”, but “is he worth the huge price as a stallion?”
To be worth that much $$, a foal is going to have to be really spectacular…not just “nice.” So far he is not (consistantly) producing jaw-dropping quality in his foals…this would be my evaluation from the videos I’ve seen and the opinion of most of the German breeders/inspectors I have spoken to.
Does that mean he is a dud at stud? Of course not!! He could well produce GP horses. But so could a dozen other stallions I could name who don’t cost an arm & a leg to breed to.
Just look at the current rankings for dressage production: I can get one dose of frozen from DeNiro (the top ranked stallion) for $1500. NONE of the stallions listed cost anywhere near what it cost to breed to T. So where is the benefit?
T. is going to have to produce some seriously WOW horses to justify that stud fee or serious breeders aren’t going to use him.
However, I guess when you charge that much you don’t have to have as many breedings per year to make the stallion pay for himself…so maybe that’s been the plan all along…
Interesting post with a valuable perspective. What mares did you use ?
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