[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7175811]
Here’s a side by side comparison of Rath and Gal on Totilas.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fbfx-zc-U68&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dfbfx-zc-U68
If Totilas didn’t go as well overall for Rath, it could be that the new training regimen did not suit Totilas, nor being a breeding and dressage stallion at the same time.[/QUOTE]
Possibly; but he was being used as a breeding stallion the last year Gal rode him…so…
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7176602]
http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=4009 Yes, Gal was “a little bit afraid”, when Totilas was a very green horse. But to say that Totilas would not score well with his mind or work ethic is just crazy. Either that or those scores don’t really mean much. I’m sure an inspector would expect a green stallion to be a little on the muscle and “up”, if he’s not drugged or lunged to death or naturally half dead.
Sure his stud fee is very high. If you don’t have a mare that’s a good match and/or don’t want to pay that much don’t use him.[/QUOTE]
I have no intention of using him even if I had the PERFECT mare and I’ve given very rational reasons why I wouldn’t.
But that really isn’t the point of this thread, is it?
And of course the inspectors don’t expect a stallion to be a gelding. But there are scores for temperament & rideability & character (and keep in mind these guys are ridden by REALLY GOOD riders) that are given so that Mare Owners can compare Stallion A with Stallion B.
Is T. an easy ride? I don’t know…maybe ask Rath and see what he thinks…
Seriously, if you want to get all giggly & over the moon about T. as a breeding stallion, by all means go ahead.
Personally I have noticed that the majority of really experienced, serious breeders (including a number of German breeders who I know) are not jumping on the bandwagon…and to me, that says something.
“Personally I have noticed that the majority of really experienced, serious breeders (including a number of German breeders who I know) are not jumping on the bandwagon…and to me, that says something.”
I wonder if they would be using him if the stud fee was more in line with the going rates of top stallions? I would think breeders have a formula you might say on how much they will risk for a stud fee because so much can go wrong. Any thing in breeding which makes luck too much a factor to make a profit or at least not to lose money would be avoided by many breeders I would think.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7177244]
I have no intention of using him even if I had the PERFECT mare and I’ve given very rational reasons why I wouldn’t.
But that really isn’t the point of this thread, is it?
And of course the inspectors don’t expect a stallion to be a gelding. But there are scores for temperament & rideability & character (and keep in mind these guys are ridden by REALLY GOOD riders) that are given so that Mare Owners can compare Stallion A with Stallion B.
Is T. an easy ride? I don’t know…maybe ask Rath and see what he thinks…
Seriously, if you want to get all giggly & over the moon about T. as a breeding stallion, by all means go ahead.
Personally I have noticed that the majority of really experienced, serious breeders (including a number of German breeders who I know) are not jumping on the bandwagon…and to me, that says something.[/QUOTE]
You’re speculating about Totilas just like anyone else, and much of your speculation has a bogus ring to it imo. I’m not getting “all giggly and over the moon about T. as a breeding stallion”.
The main reason not to use Totilas is the stud fee. That’s it. Even the not “proven” argument is rather bogus because breeders rush to use new young champion horses.
You can grin and wink about a horse that’s shown pretty amazing rideability all you want, but that won’t increase your credibility. From what I’ve seen when Rath has problems with Totilas Rath blocks T’s forward energy by the way he rides. Not Totilas’ fault.
T. won’t be a top contending breeding stallion until his stud fee is lowered and the right sort of mares are put to him. Sounds like he may tend to throw old-fashioned (big trot, not so great canter) and needs a modern type mare.
Is the ‘big trot, meh canter’ something that breeders/owners of T offspring are noting?
Sounds like he may tend to throw old-fashioned (big trot, not so great canter) and needs a modern type mare.
So, I just wanted to point out something. Totilas had his first breeding season in 2010 and produced his first foals in 2011. Compared to many stallions, his foal crop was smaller so the numbers game plays a role as to how many of his first crop will be selected as stallions or even future broodmares. In Hanoverian, “foals are judged”. Indeed. They are named as foals best suited for dressage, best suited for jumping, and both colts and fillies are named as suitable candidates for breeding. My own filly this year was named Hanoverian Verband Best Dressage Foal and stated she should be a broodmare prospect. So, getting on to my point - Totilas had a crop of foals born in 2011. So to just pick on Germany and just the Hanoverian Verband, the Hanoverian Verband travelled all over Germany and looked at thousands of foals, including some of his babies, and decided which colts should be named Stallion Prospects. Out of the several thousand foals in Germany they looked at, they whittled the Stallion Prospects down to a list of about 600 colts. On that list, there is ONE Totilas colt in the bunch. These went off to be raised by stallion raising farms. As of this moment, this Class of 2011 are now 2-year-olds and are currently going through the pre-selection process in Hanoverian for the Hanoverian 2-year-old Licensing and Elite Auction scheduled to take place October 24 and October 25, with the auction on October 26. This class of 600 young stallions (and I might add, it appears to be a class of exceptional quality!) is in the process of being whittled down to about 100-200 - no easy task for the judges. The Totilas colt (out of a Desperados-Rotspon mare) will get his look-see debut tomorrow, the 19th. Then we shall see if he has produced a candidate that competes with colts from other sires. The Final Selection Class then goes on to the actual licensing and the final tally of actual 2-year-old Licensed Stallions is whittled down further to anywhere between 20-80. This year, the class seems to be of exceptional quality and the Licensing numbers might be large. It also means the competition will be very stiff and a stallion who gets licensed in this class will be of extremely good quality.
It has been spoken about in breeding circles both in Europe and North America, that Totilas is what is called in breeding as “an end product”. Which means it is doubted by experienced breeders that he will ever be able to match or beat himself. What remains to be seen, however, is whether Totilas becomes a broodmare sire. A lot of times, an end product stallion cannot really produce sons who are as good as himself, but many times can and will produce broodmares who produce babies of prized quality. There are a few stallions who did not themselves produce a lot of approved stallion sons, but those sons went on to become stallion producers and great broodmare producers themselves. Sometimes, extreme patience is required in breeding!
Being an End Product does not diminish his value, but it does change the group of individuals who may use his services. If it becomes apparent that he is not a stallion producer, the goals may change to become broodmare producer. This takes a few more years to become apparent, because we have to wait for the filly to grow up, get inspected as a 3-year-old, do her own MPT, and then produce a foal of hopefully outstanding quality. Some sires don’t really show up as gold until they have GRANDkids on the ground!! There are many breeders out there whose goals are strictly broodmare production and high quality broodmares are very, very prized. To have a judge of any European Verband state a filly should be a broodmare candidate is paying her a high compliment.
As for rideability, I think Totilas has a fair bit of that - or he quite simply would not have made it to the Grand Prix level of competition. You can’t get to GP without rideability and trainability. Plain and simple. When I watch him, I see a horse who is sensitive, gifted, but who has a lot of try. Instead of shutting down when his whole training system was changed, he tried to work with it. It was a rocky road to switch from Edward Gal to his current rider and many very sensitive upper level horses would have had meltdowns of atomic proportions, but while he did have a few meltdowns and hiccups, he always came back with more try. And this may be his biggest gift to his future sons and daughters - and time will tell. From what breeders from several countries have mentioned to me when I have discussed the subject with them, is that their foals from Totilas are easy to handle. They learn their lessons quickly, well, they are sensitive, but they like to try. None have been started under saddle, but quite a few breeders I have spoken to are really looking forward to the riding because they strongly suspect the rideability and trainability will be there.
Then, it is a matter of time as to whether he becomes a riding horse producer (very likely from what very experienced breeders are telling me about their foals), a stallion producer (yet to see), or a broodmare producer (yet to see). It’s a very rare stallion who did all three (Weltmeyer was one such), but if he can produce in at least one of those three areas, he has done his job as a stallion well. But TIME WILL TELL. I still will not call him “The Best” Dressage stallion in the world, but he is definitely “Among The Best In The World”, and quite frankly until anyone has produced a stallion (or mare, or gelding for that matter) that ranks as “Among The Best In The World”, you really don’t get a good grasp on how much of an honor it is to be ranked even there. He is among the cream of the crop in terms of riding horses. Now we wait to see what kind of “cream” he produces in his kids and later his grandkids.
[QUOTE=rodawn;7178281]
So, I just wanted to point out something. Totilas had his first breeding season in 2010 and produced his first foals in 2011. Compared to many stallions, his foal crop was smaller so the numbers game plays a role as to how many of his first crop will be selected as stallions or even future broodmares. In Hanoverian, “foals are judged”. Indeed. They are named as foals best suited for dressage, best suited for jumping, and both colts and fillies are named as suitable candidates for breeding. My own filly this year was named Hanoverian Verband Best Dressage Foal and stated she should be a broodmare prospect. So, getting on to my point - Totilas had a crop of foals born in 2011. So to just pick on Germany and just the Hanoverian Verband, the Hanoverian Verband travelled all over Germany and looked at thousands of foals, including some of his babies, and decided which colts should be named Stallion Prospects. Out of the several thousand foals in Germany they looked at, they whittled the Stallion Prospects down to a list of about 600 colts. On that list, there is ONE Totilas colt in the bunch. These went off to be raised by stallion raising farms. As of this moment, this Class of 2011 are now 2-year-olds and are currently going through the pre-selection process in Hanoverian for the Hanoverian 2-year-old Licensing and Elite Auction scheduled to take place October 24 and October 25, with the auction on October 26. This class of 600 young stallions (and I might add, it appears to be a class of exceptional quality!) is in the process of being whittled down to about 100-200 - no easy task for the judges. The Totilas colt (out of a Desperados-Rotspon mare) will get his look-see debut tomorrow, the 19th. Then we shall see if he has produced a candidate that competes with colts from other sires. The Final Selection Class then goes on to the actual licensing and the final tally of actual 2-year-old Licensed Stallions is whittled down further to anywhere between 20-80. This year, the class seems to be of exceptional quality and the Licensing numbers might be large. It also means the competition will be very stiff and a stallion who gets licensed in this class will be of extremely good quality.
It has been spoken about in breeding circles both in Europe and North America, that Totilas is what is called in breeding as “an end product”. Which means it is doubted by experienced breeders that he will ever be able to match or beat himself. What remains to be seen, however, is whether Totilas becomes a broodmare sire. A lot of times, an end product stallion cannot really produce sons who are as good as himself, but many times can and will produce broodmares who produce babies of prized quality. There are a few stallions who did not themselves produce a lot of approved stallion sons, but those sons went on to become stallion producers and great broodmare producers themselves. Sometimes, extreme patience is required in breeding!
Being an End Product does not diminish his value, but it does change the group of individuals who may use his services. If it becomes apparent that he is not a stallion producer, the goals may change to become broodmare producer. This takes a few more years to become apparent, because we have to wait for the filly to grow up, get inspected as a 3-year-old, do her own MPT, and then produce a foal of hopefully outstanding quality. Some sires don’t really show up as gold until they have GRANDkids on the ground!! There are many breeders out there whose goals are strictly broodmare production and high quality broodmares are very, very prized. To have a judge of any European Verband state a filly should be a broodmare candidate is paying her a high compliment.
As for rideability, I think Totilas has a fair bit of that - or he quite simply would not have made it to the Grand Prix level of competition. You can’t get to GP without rideability and trainability. Plain and simple. When I watch him, I see a horse who is sensitive, gifted, but who has a lot of try. Instead of shutting down when his whole training system was changed, he tried to work with it. It was a rocky road to switch from Edward Gal to his current rider and many very sensitive upper level horses would have had meltdowns of atomic proportions, but while he did have a few meltdowns and hiccups, he always came back with more try. And this may be his biggest gift to his future sons and daughters - and time will tell. From what breeders from several countries have mentioned to me when I have discussed the subject with them, is that their foals from Totilas are easy to handle. They learn their lessons quickly, well, they are sensitive, but they like to try. None have been started under saddle, but quite a few breeders I have spoken to are really looking forward to the riding because they strongly suspect the rideability and trainability will be there.
Then, it is a matter of time as to whether he becomes a riding horse producer (very likely from what very experienced breeders are telling me about their foals), a stallion producer (yet to see), or a broodmare producer (yet to see). It’s a very rare stallion who did all three (Weltmeyer was one such), but if he can produce in at least one of those three areas, he has done his job as a stallion well. But TIME WILL TELL. I still will not call him “The Best” Dressage stallion in the world, but he is definitely “Among The Best In The World”, and quite frankly until anyone has produced a stallion (or mare, or gelding for that matter) that ranks as “Among The Best In The World”, you really don’t get a good grasp on how much of an honor it is to be ranked even there. He is among the cream of the crop in terms of riding horses. Now we wait to see what kind of “cream” he produces in his kids and later his grandkids.[/QUOTE]
Nothing to add to this^^ Really good post Rodawn.
[QUOTE=horsey1cr;7178369]
Nothing to add to this^^ Really good post Rodawn.[/QUOTE]
Its definately the stud fee, here in Australia it is $9500 per dose, or $15 000 for 3 doses but only one pregnancy
for breeders with alot of mares, it is impossible to afford this sort of stud fee except for the seriously wealthy
we have never had a totilas foal for sale here either, but an embryo from a Weltmeyer mare in foal to totilas just sold for $28 000 here
i have no idea what a totilas foal is actually worth to a breeder at sale time
even so just coming up with that sort of money and a good chance of not even getting a pregnancy - way too risky for me
i dont really think the stud fee will come down either, this wouldnt be a good marketing move for PSI would it, it would be like admitting no one or not enough people are using him
Paulamc
[QUOTE=horsey1cr;7178369]
Really good post Rodawn.[/QUOTE]
I second that. A lot of what Rodawn mentioned was pretty much what I stated on that FB thread a week or so back, incl. the very small numbers of 2011 Hanoverian colts by Totilas (so a VERY small group of Hanoverian stallion prospect sons to pick from), the fact that he is regarded by most folks as an end product, the fact that many experienced breeders and registry officials think he will prove to be much more of a broodmare sire than a sire of stallion sons.
I will also add that one German registry official said to me, “Time will tell. Maybe he will produce a stempelhengst son who will carry the sire line forward. But we may not know for many years. It could be that son will not come until Totilas is an old man.”
[QUOTE=Kerole;7178113]
Is the ‘big trot, meh canter’ something that breeders/owners of T offspring are noting?[/QUOTE]
MaryDell wrote that was her observation on the first page of this thread after seeing his get in Germany. I’ve only seen videos of very fancy-looking youngsters. The 2-year-old stallion prospect looks beautiful but the short vid I saw only shows his trot.
It’s still early days. I imagine Totilas will prove to be a good stallion crossed to the right sort of mare, like most stallions. Stallions that stamp everything in a positive way are incredibly rare.
I really liked your post Rodawn.
[QUOTE=DownYonder;7178742]
I second that. A lot of what Rodawn mentioned was pretty much what I stated on that FB thread a week or so back, incl. the very small numbers of 2011 Hanoverian colts by Totilas (so a VERY small group of Hanoverian stallion prospect sons to pick from), the fact that he is regarded by most folks as an end product, the fact that many experienced breeders and registry officials think he will prove to be much more of a broodmare sire than a sire of stallion sons.
I will also add that one German registry official said to me, “Time will tell. Maybe he will produce a stempelhengst son who will carry the sire line forward. But we may not know for many years. It could be that son will not come until Totilas is an old man.”[/QUOTE]
Which Facebook thread!? LOL There are so many threads on him these days. He’s definitely a horse that gets talked about and he seems to be another of those horses that brings up a lot of polar views. But the one thing most experienced breeders concur is that his breeding endeavors of significance could end up in maternal lines.
paulamc - that IU Totilas colt foal option has been sold to New Zealand. It will be very exciting for us here top have a T in town!
Lovely baby!
Fwiw we saw (and rode) Toto’s full brother a few days ago, he is five and was super easy, super nice to ride. Very good temperament and although he was only under saddle less than a year he showed very good talent for collection. Definitely a horse most people could enjoy.
[QUOTE=Donella;7179475]
Fwiw we saw (and rode) Toto’s full brother a few days ago, he is five and was super easy, super nice to ride. Very good temperament and although he was only under saddle less than a year he showed very good talent for collection. Definitely a horse most people could enjoy.[/QUOTE]
Is he a breeding stallion?
Update: The Totilas-Desperados-Rotspon colt passed the Preliminary and is in the Final Selection group. On October 24-25th, he will undertake his stallion licensing and so we wait to see if he makes this cut. The Hanoverian Verband is posting photos of some of the stallions. They haven’t posted the group in which the Toto colt was presented yet, but probably will by tomorrow.
Here’s the link for those of you on Facebook - it’s quite delicious eye candy. Yum! They keep adding to this group so no doubt in a day or so there might be a picture or two of the Totilas colt.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.595103937194473.1073741854.236159439755593&type=1
I so NEED to win the lottery.
Just a thought, I may be WAY off base so please don’t take my thinking out loud as fact or hearsay.
I wonder if they gave him an exorbitantly high stud fee to purposely limit his bookings? Maybe he has a really low libido and is tough to collect? I’ve worked in stallion stations and knew 2 classy guys with the lowest libidos. It took hours to collect them and really impacted their training and showing schedules. The excessive amount of time the collection team spent on them in the shed also limited the schedule for all the other boys to collect.
Or his libido is normal, but they just don’t want him collecting every damn day. Maybe they want him more focused on his training? (that said, is he still out of work for injury?)
Rodawn thanks for the link! It’ll be nice to see these chaps again once they’ve had a chance to muscle up, particularly over the loins/quarters. At the moment they’re all pretty leggy. My pick thus far is a Dancier/Wie Weltmeyer (based on a confo shot only).
[QUOTE=Twisted River;7179860]
Just a thought, I may be WAY off base so please don’t take my thinking out loud as fact or hearsay.
I wonder if they gave him an exorbitantly high stud fee to purposely limit his bookings? Maybe he has a really low libido and is tough to collect? I’ve worked in stallion stations and knew 2 classy guys with the lowest libidos. It took hours to collect them and really impacted their training and showing schedules. The excessive amount of time the collection team spent on them in the shed also limited the schedule for all the other boys to collect.
Or his libido is normal, but they just don’t want him collecting every damn day. Maybe they want him more focused on his training? (that said, is he still out of work for injury?)[/QUOTE]
From what I have heard, the big factors in setting his stud fee so high was so they didn’t get slammed with inquiries and breedings for mares that weren’t top, top quality. Folks with top tier mares would be more willing to pay that fee, whereas those with not so top mares would look elsewhere. I also wouldn’t be surprised if the VERY top mares were given a discount of some sort, or there was some sort of other arrangement. It is not unknown for stallion owners to offer a “deal”, esp. when the mare brings a lot to the table (is herself a producer of approved stallion sons, a half or full sister to approved stallion sons, and/or from a top family for sport).
[QUOTE=rodawn;7179776]
Update: The Totilas-Desperados-Rotspon colt passed the Preliminary and is in the Final Selection group. On October 24-25th, he will undertake his stallion licensing and so we wait to see if he makes this cut. The Hanoverian Verband is posting photos of some of the stallions.[/QUOTE]
Very cool news. So from that very, very small group of 2011 Hanoverian colts by Totilas, they selected the ONE that was presented. It will be really interesting to see if he get licensed. My guess is it will be hard for them to turn him down, unless he is a real dud.
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