Totilis

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=madamlb;7173810]
I actually think the Totilas colt looks lovely and I really like his pedigree as a whole. Is he the flashiest mover I have ever seen? No. Is ridiculously big movement the only thing I look at in a horse? No. I love his conformation, I love his substance, I think he will grow to be a powerhouse, he has very good mechanics and a real ‘look at me’ presence.

I think people just enjoy knocking the Totilas foals down because of the price of the service fees, but honestly Totilas himself has a good pedigree and lots of power … comparing your filly of completely different breeding just seems entirely pointless, nice though I am sure she is![/QUOTE]

The colt is fine; but nothing spectacular (IMHO). Of course every foal is going to have a different pedigree; how is that “pointless?” I mean we don’t usually compare two foals with the same pedigree do we?. Instead, when you evaluate the foal, you evaluate what is in front of you: conformation, “presence”, gaits.

And from looking at the video that colt is not horrid by any means, but I don’t see him as anything particularly special in any regard. Compared side by side, I’ve seen plenty of foals who are better…and I’m betting if this one wasn’t sired by T., people wouldn’t be thinking that highly of him.

Of course T. has a solid pedigree…no one is doubting that. Just about every approved WB stallion out there these days has a solid pedigree though…the big question about T. is will he pass on that special brilliance he showed under E. Gal. THAT is why his stud fee is so expensive, because of what he showed in the ring under Gal. It isn’t because of his power OR his pedigree.

And THAT is what the big debate is about: will he pass that brilliance along and will it be visible in his foals? I don’t see anything “brilliant” in that chestnut colt…just a nice, fairly well-conformed foal with rather average movement…

[prudence]

Kyzteke, I finally got to see your rainy day filly video. What I notice about her is how balanced she is. Love her back as well. I cannot get over how different movement is from foal to foal. If you look back at the foal videos from the Pacific Sporthorse selection, you will see three entirely different movers. The Oldenbergs are judged as babies but the Hanoverians are not. So I am thinking if they can’t agree we don’t really yet know how predictable early movement is of later quality.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=prudence;7174883]
The Oldenbergs are judged as babies but the Hanoverians are not. [/QUOTE]

AHS has to be judging foals at their inspections. Otherwise how could they name a champion colt and champion filly?

[DownYonder]

And a couple of other comments - the Totilas/Sir Donnerhall colt in the youtube video is being prepped for the AOS auction. He will be sold intact so the buyer can decide whether to try to pursue stallion licensing with him or geld him and use him as a riding horse.

Also, my understanding is there have been a good number of Totilas foals at the Oldenburg inspections this year. The general consensus is that because he is does not have the prettiest face, nor is he particularly long-legged, he does best with a modern, typey mare with good length of leg and a fair amount of blood. I have also heard he seems to add better movement to mares with not much movement - esp. improving hindleg activity and power, but he doesn’t significantly improve gaits on mares with good movement. My various sources say there have not been very many reports of “blow you away” foals, and the few colts that seem “special” have been quietly bought up by stallion raisers.

It was also recently pointed out to me again that Totilas as a young horse was “good” but not specatacular, and it took all of Hans Peter’s and Edward’s skills to develop him into the superstar he was.

[prudence]

No scoresheets are done for any foals at the inspections. The inspection champion colt and filly from what I understand from AHS are informal designations based on overall impressions only.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=prudence;7175009]
No scoresheets are done for any foals at the inspections. The inspection champion colt and filly from what I understand from AHS are informal designations based on overall impressions only.[/QUOTE]

No scoresheets for Oldenburg foals, either.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Don’t the Oldenburg folks give a premium or other award that goes into a foal’s record, DY? In that respect, it is a permanent part of the horse’s record and therefore somewhat “official.” On the other hand, Hanoverians are named “top colt” or “top filly” for an inspection site, without that going into any record or receiving any official award. If pressed for time, there may not be top colt or filly designation, so it really is an informal status.

For the last two years, AHS has given awards and ranked nationally Futurity entries for Yearling and Two Year Old colts and fillies.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7175029]
Don’t the Oldenburg folks give a premium or other award that goes into a foal’s record, DY? In that respect, it is a permanent part of the horse’s record and therefore somewhat “official.” [/QUOTE]

Yes, but that isn’t what Prudence said. She stated “Oldenbergs are judged as babies but the Hanoverians are not”, and then said “There is no scoresheet” (in reference to Hanoverian foals)", with an inference that Oldenburg scores foals.

So I was pointing out both Oldenburg foals and Hanoverian foals ARE judged, but not scored (no scoresheet used for either).

[Home_Again_Farm]

Does an Oldenburg foal’s premium become part of its official record? If it does, then my point is that the “official” part is probably the difference she was implying between the two registries. I am not implying one way is better than another, just asking for clarification.

[prudence]

I think the difference is that each foal at an Oldenberg inspection gets rated - premium or whatever. So that would go into their record. And each foal at the Hanoverian inspection does not get rated.

Are we getting murkier with each try?:lol:

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7175171]
Does an Oldenburg foal’s premium become part of its official record? If it does, then my point is that the “official” part is probably the difference she was implying between the two registries. I am not implying one way is better than another, just asking for clarification.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if the foal is named premium, it is designated on the passport. It is also designated if a colt is named as a stallion prospect.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=prudence;7175200]
I think the difference is that each foal at an Oldenberg inspection gets rated - premium or whatever. So that would go into their record. And each foal at the Hanoverian inspection does not get rated.[/QUOTE]

And foals at most AHS inspection sites also get rated - champion or not champion. :winkgrin: Although I do understand the point about the Hanoverian rating not going into their permanent record.

I guess we are basically arguing about semantics. In my view, although neither registry scores foals, they both DO evaluate (judge) them.

But we are “totilly” off topic now. :lol:

[Home_Again_Farm]

You have confirmed my point. The premium rating is official and goes into a horse’s record with Oldenburg. With AHS the naming a “top” filly and colt may happen or not as the inspection schedule allows. The designation is not part of a foal’s record and is regarded as not “official” but as informal by those familiar with the registry. One is not necessarily better than the other - just different.

And, you are right, we are totilly OT. :winkgrin:

[TKR]

Hmmm – sounds like Totilas might work well on a Thoroughbred mare. Have any been bred to him?
PennyG

[madamlb]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;7174979]

It was also recently pointed out to me again that Totilas as a young horse was “good” but not specatacular, and it took all of Hans Peter’s and Edward’s skills to develop him into the superstar he was.[/QUOTE]

This.

Not all stallions produce fancy foals, but not all fancy foals make great dressage horses.

The example that springs to mind (because I have one) is Don Frederico, he is known for producing average foals, nothing particularly spectacular, when his first foal crop was presented his breeding value plummeted because they were just blah … but he has produced many grand prix horses and last year was the Hanoverian Stallion of the Year because over time it was realised that even though the foals weren’t outstanding they made great horses!

Compare that to Sandro Hit, fancy foals, fancy young horses but not really the goods at the higher levels.

Since Totilas himself was not a young horse champion, it’s a bit unfair to expect him to produce them or to judge his success as a sire on his foals, give them a chance to grow up and come under saddle and then we’ll see.

Personally, I’m interested to see how they grow up! I wouldn’t mind using him on my Sir Donnerhall filly, if he passes on his work ethic and his substance and his good mind then I would really consider using him. There are so many more important things than the fancy auction trot …

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=madamlb;7175251]
This.

Not all stallions produce fancy foals, but not all fancy foals make great dressage horses.

…if he passes on his work ethic and his substance and his good mind then I would really consider using him. There are so many more important things than the fancy auction trot …[/QUOTE]

Very, very true…I agree with almost everything you say.

However from T’s history, his breeding, comments from Gal on T’s early years & training + T’s recent performance under a different rider, I would not consider him an “easy” ride. In fact, I seem to recall an interview with Gal where he confessed that in the very early years, he was actually afraid to get on T., because of his power and his extreme sensitivity. He had his partner do it!;). Does anyone else remember this comment? Or am I totally mis-remembering? Since T. was approved on performance, he was never scored on either his mind or “work ethic”. But based on the above info, I opine that he would not get generous scores in either category.

He certainly would not be an ammie ride by any stretch, nor would I use him on a sensitive, reactive or “hot” sort of mare.

After all, his current rider Rath (?)… may not be E. Gal, but, compared to most dressage riders in this country at least, could hardily be called incompetent. Yet he has been unable to duplicate Gal’s results with T. He can barely come close.

So that says something.

Again, please don’t mis-understand me; I know it sounds like I’m “bashing” Totilas, but I’m not. He is a very, VERY fine stallion w/a very solid pedigree, good conformation & excellent basic paces that (it would seem) can be developed to an amazing level under the right rider. And (obviously), in terms of his performance record, he has been one of the most captivating dressage performers of the modern age.

But there are plenty of stallions who fit this bill except the last part. Granted, none so far have displayed the kind of “end product” that Gal was able to get o/o T. in the show ring (at least once they reached GP), but then again even Gal has not be able to duplicate this; even with T’s full sister!

This part is important, because, even if one disagrees with his methods, I think we can all agree that Gal is not your average GP rider, even when compared to other international competitors.

So the question (for me anyway), is: [I]" Is T. so completely head & shoulders superior to other stallions in terms of the foals he produces that he is worth this sort of stud fee?"

[/I]Considering I could breed to DeNiro, Jazz, Sandro Hit and a number of other PROVEN GP producers multiple times for the same cost as ONE breeding to T, I would have to say “NOPE!”

And European breeders who are not limited to choosing only stallions who have great frozen semen, have even more choices than we in America have.

Oh, btw, regarding S.Hit and his “fancy foals” unable to go on GP, you might take a look at this year’s stallion ranking for dressage production. SH actually has a number of his get doing quite well at that level…

[grayarabpony]

Here’s a side by side comparison of Rath and Gal on Totilas.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fbfx-zc-U68&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dfbfx-zc-U68

If Totilas didn’t go as well overall for Rath, it could be that the new training regimen did not suit Totilas, nor being a breeding and dressage stallion at the same time.

[grayarabpony]

http://www.dressage-news.com/?p=4009 Yes, Gal was “a little bit afraid”, when Totilas was a very green horse. But to say that Totilas would not score well with his mind or work ethic is just crazy. Either that or those scores don’t really mean much. I’m sure an inspector would expect a green stallion to be a little on the muscle and “up”, if he’s not drugged or lunged to death or naturally half dead.

Sure his stud fee is very high. If you don’t have a mare that’s a good match and/or don’t want to pay that much don’t use him.

[madamlb]

Exactly, if you don’t want to use him shrugs don’t use him, but why does it matter to you if other people do or what the quality of their foals is? Get over it.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=madamlb;7176621]
Exactly, if you don’t want to use him shrugs don’t use him, but why does it matter to you if other people do or what the quality of their foals is? Get over it.[/QUOTE]

Well, this IS a breeding board that involves DISCUSSING breeding, which generally means DISCUSSING pros & cons of various stallions. Or are you not getting that?