Trainer concerns and questions - limited experience

[Rerider54]

@thecolorcoal

She is and has, i can confirm this, shut down on people before. She literally goes somewhere else mentally and just becomes a equine robot. She also will spook in order to leave the situation. It has gotten much MUCH much better in the last year, but a heavy handed approach backfires. This woman is very very light, which also tends to be an issue as my horse doesn’t take her seriously.

…I have found ways with this horse to break through the mental and emotional barriers…

don’t worry about the trainer, she is not the issue… YOU have to think about your horse and she is telling you what you need to know… SHE wants another trainer. My current instructor likes mares, likes my mare and has said things like " you cannot force a mare", “in the wild it is always a mare in charge because they are better at thinking” and " if you have a relationship with a mare they will give you everything they have". Just like in school and work, some people are easier to get along with. Some teachers and bosses inspire their students or workers to go to extraordinary heights. My favorite anecdote is that Carl Hester was not totally in sync with Valero and offered him to Charlotte, not sure if it is true but it sounds magical.

Continue to work on you you and your horse and find an instructor who understands you and your horse. They need to believe in the partnership you are forming.

[kashmere]

Time for a short goodbye to this trainer! Continue working with the one who is actually interested and invested in you and your horse.

Sometimes a horse is a bad fit for a trainer. That’s fine. But they are the pro and need to manage those situations professionally. We had a situation at my barn recently where a horse turned out to just not be a good fit for the program, not a good fit for the owner, etc. After a few months of due diligence by the trainer to problem solve and try to make it work, she sat down with the owner, the owner decided she wanted to sell, and trainer worked to find another trainer’s program who could work with the horse, market him, and sell him.

She could easily have strung the owner along and kept collecting $$, but she’s ethical and cares about her students and the horses in her care. Take the above as an example of how a trainer can and should handle a similar situation, compare it to yours, and I think the answer is obvious.

Good luck and have fun with your other trainer!

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

The trainer has a problem. Labelling and defining what sort of problem seems like a waste of time.

Bottom line is she’s not delivering a service that you value. Answer: get another trainer that does.

If you can stay at a barn you love without ruffling feathers once you have dropped this trainer…bonus. If not, well move. Life goes on. You will find another spot you love.

No need to confront this trainer or make a spectacle about dropping her. Just move on. I bet for whatever reason, she breathes a sigh of relief at not having to confront her own demons with you and your mare.

[x-halt-salute]

@thecolorcoal

@Scribbler, I am also highly highly suspicious of professionals in general. be it trainers, farriers, chiropractors, acupuncturists, even vets. The list goes on. Anyone can hang a shingle for anything. Just because you went to school for something doesn’t mean you are anymore qualified than someone who cures diseases out in the plains of Africa with mud, bark, and herbal medicine. Sometimes I have found these people know less.

But I also believe, Scribbler, we can learn a lot from others. I believe the podunk trainer is as valuable as the BNT. Lessons can be learned everywhere, anywhere, by anybody. Doesn’t require big $$$, and that is my point. I have learned over quite a few posts and replies there is literally nothing I can say to change your mind about me. Which is not my problem. I am going to stop trying and I would appreciate if you stop dragging my name through the dirt. You try so hard to disenchant me. Kind of odd you are putting so much effort into crushing a young person’s dreams who loves her horse…

Whoa. Take a deep breath. @Scribbler is trying to help – nothing she has written has “dragged your name through the dirt” and you can’t be angry at her for being honest with you when you asked for additional perspectives as you reflect on why this trainer issue came about.

You’ve described your current situation, asked whether something you did might have contributed to problems, and pointed out that you’re still figuring out how to ‘muddle through’ the process of finding good trainers, and Scribbler has responded with a few ideas about things that might factor into this trainer mismatch as well as prior failed arrangements.

I agree with Scribbler that your broad distrust of professionals might ultimately do you the disservice of making the good ones wary of working with you. I’ve certainly seen that happen to others. I also agree with you that there is a lot of valuable traditional knowledge out there and that vets, trainers, farriers, etc. aren’t always right and don’t have a monopoly on knowledge and truth … But since you can’t fly your horse to Africa to experiment with mud, bark, and herbs every time you encounter a vet issue you’re going to have to accept that all professionals are imperfect, calibrate your skepticism to some healthy point on the spectrum between gullibility and paranoia, and learn how to identify the professionals whose skills and communication best match your needs. Over time, the goal is to become secure enough in your own decision making to know when to terminate a professional relationship and when/how to cope or respond when your expectations aren’t strictly met (because no professional relationship will ever be 100% perfect).

There are indeed some lower-priced diamond in the rough trainers out there and of course someone who understands how to learn can find insights almost anywhere, but unless you want to learn “what not to do” lessons over and over you need to have some savvy to identify the trainers who you can learn the most from. It sounds like you’ve formulated a plan for moving on from the current situation – working exclusively with the trainer who visits less frequently and discontinuing your relationship with the current in-house trainer. You’re smart to reflect on the factors/miscommunications/pitfalls that factored into your selection of this ultimately incompatible trainer and the deterioration of the relationship. Ideally you’ll be able to identify things you weren’t aware of when you joined up that may help you to filter trainer searches in the future (e.g. flattery or unrealistic goals to attract clients, # of clients who need attention, ability to have face-to-face conversations when things don’t seem to be going o.k., etc.). I hope you’ll reflect privately on some of the things Scribbler has said, as well, and whether some of them might belong on your mental checklist for navigating trainer searches in the future. Good luck moving forward.

[Scribbler]

I think it’s also important to remember that trusting a professional does not mean having unlimited faith in them to fix everything and then throwing in the towel when they aren’t infallible.

As in human medicine, vets can fix some things but only ameliorate others. This is especially true for persistent chronic lameness questions. Many horses and many people remain NQR or require maintenance. Just look at a pack of middle aged office workers heading for the subway train at 5 PM. How many of them would pass a flexion test?

Trainers likewise can’t work miracles, and even when they can school your horse, they can’t make it go better for you until your own riding improves.

In other words, professionals are people with more skills and credentials than you who can help you diagnose and attempt and ameliorate a problem. But you need to be an active participant.

IME horses with behavior quirks or basic soundness issues do not usually completely transcend those problems which is why it’s so important to buy wisely.

It is not a sign that a vet or trainer is a charlatan, if they can’t fix all the problems immediately. Indeed, vets and doctors both tend to have guarded prognosis and claims for their treatments and often it is a matter of trial and error to see what treatment works.

[right_horse_at_the_right_time]

OP - I have skimmed the posts. But having had wonderful trainers for the most part, I left one several years ago whom I thought highly of as a person but just wasn’t a great fit for me and my horse. (That said, my horse is a pretty easy going gelding, so he didn’t complain much.)

I stayed longer than I should have because I didn’t trust my own instincts and I wanted to believe it was ME. When I realized (again, way late) that it wasn’t me, and I left, it was as if the lightbulbs started turning on. Everyone has to decide what is important. For me, horse care is number one. Training is second because my horse is a kind soul and not dangerous and our goal isn’t GP. Only you can figure out (with help and insight) what the best situation is, and often under stress we feel like we have to make fast decisions.

Good luck.

[RedHorses]

You never said how your lessons with this trainer are going. Are you learning? Feeling your mare work better for you? Generally feeling like you did some good work in lessons? Is the trainer seeing what your mare is doing and giving you instructions that you understand and can apply successfully? Is she helping you maintain, solidify the things your GP trainer works on/identifies in your monthly lesson?

If this is the case then take two lessons a week or just one and stop the training “ride”. Your trainer doesn’t get to decide. It is your decision. If the trainer then ceases to give you value in lessons that is the time to move. Because you like the barn culture it is worth trying as long as you are getting value in lessons.

[BrokenArrow]

Horses are like people, there are going to be ones where you just don’t get along with. I don’t see it as a failure on the trainer’s behalf that she isn’t really getting anywhere with the horse. Just because someone is a trainer doesn’t mean they have the skill set to cope with a horse that is a bit more special needs than normal. All people have strengths and weaknesses. Maybe this trainer has had a bad experience with horses that won’t go forward and shut down? That could be where the caution is coming from. I know I am very good at getting hot horses to relax and work well. But ones that don’t go forward and shut down if pressured about something? Not my cup of tea.

But, she also shouldn’t be taking your money to train the horse if that’s the case. If it was me as the trainer, I’d politely tell the owner I don’t feel like I’m a good match for this horse and its specific problems. This can be super tricky because we are all guilty of seeing our horses with rose coloured glasses. Telling someone their precious Dobbin has some specific issues is very hard for owners to hear. As Scribbler pointed out, trainers are only human. They aren’t infallible and can fix every single problem that comes to them. Same goes for any professional. My husband and I are both training to go into medical fields. Telling patient’s that they are doing things wrong in their life without offending them is nearly half of your degree (well, it feels like it at the moment).

OP, have you actually sat down and talked to the trainer? Tell her of your concerns? You don’t have to do it face to face, an email will suffice. This will give you time to write something out without being emotional about it. Take off the rose coloured glasses and have a good think about your horse, her capabilities and your goals. Do they all match up? Are there things that this trainer might be correct about? The lameness vet I use said to me one day that very mild NQR horses are the hardest to deal with. The vets get so used to seething things that are obvious that very mild NQR sometimes almost looks normal. However, a trainer who see’s sound horses day in and day out might be able to pick up something isn’t right. Maybe the trainer has seen a horse with your mare’s issues and the stifle injections helped immensely? Are you truly being honest with yourself that the mare doesn’t have issues?

A bit of soul searching can be ugly at times. But it helps to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Being devil’s advocate here, how do you know the GP trainer isn’t the one saying what you want to hear to keep a client? Just because someone ride’s at GP it doesn’t make them a god and know everything. Believe me, before my mare went on a break due to my unsoundness, we were about 4 one time changed away from being GP ready. It doesn’t mean I have all the answers and tools to help somebody.

[x-halt-salute]

@BrokenArrow

OP, have you actually sat down and talked to the trainer? Tell her of your concerns? You don’t have to do it face to face, an email will suffice. This will give you time to write something out without being emotional about it. Take off the rose coloured glasses and have a good think about your horse, her capabilities and your goals. Do they all match up? Are there things that this trainer might be correct about? The lameness vet I use said to me one day that very mild NQR horses are the hardest to deal with. The vets get so used to seething things that are obvious that very mild NQR sometimes almost looks normal. However, a trainer who see’s sound horses day in and day out might be able to pick up something isn’t right. Maybe the trainer has seen a horse with your mare’s issues and the stifle injections helped immensely? Are you truly being honest with yourself that the mare doesn’t have issues?

A bit of soul searching can be ugly at times. But it helps to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Being devil’s advocate here, how do you know the GP trainer isn’t the one saying what you want to hear to keep a client?

I agree wholeheartedly with your recommendation that OP do some serious reflection on the situation, and with your points for consideration. But I caution OP against communicating all of this to trainer in an email, especially since it sounds like one of the thorns in the current relationship is that OP sends emails to the trainer and receives text/call responses only after using those modalities to request a response. This suggests to me that the trainer does not prefer to communicate via email (many professionals avoid email when high emotion or misinterpretation are real possibilities) and that this is already a source of conflict. But more importantly, I think any issue that has the potential for serious misunderstanding is best worked out face to face. Not only does this avoid the sorts of misinterpretations that arise when context and tone are missing, it also gives the other party a chance to gather their thoughts and not feel ‘ambushed’ by the sudden receipt of a very heavy communication.

This doesn’t mean that OP shouldn’t write down her thoughts – I think it is wise to take some time, do some serious reflection, and write notes or a letter when emotions aren’t running high. I’d simply recommend that this be used as preparation/notes for a face to face meeting, rather than an email missive. At the very least, it could be sent with a request for a face to face follow-up.

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

OP
What are your goals with this horse?
I’m not sure from your posts why you need two different trainers?
Why do you need the trainer to ride your horse at all?

This trainer sounds like she has a lot of clients and maybe not a lot of time.
She may be the rider who can show horses but not a horsewoman who can school difficult horses. She may well be afraid of riding your horse. If she gets hurt she can’t work and she can’t pay her bills and her clients may leave her.

not making excuses for a bad trainer but I can see why she would be reluctant to ride a horse that you yourself says can be difficult.

I have to say I don’t think much of a trainer who insists on round penning a horse that she already knows has stifle issues.

I am taken aback that you feel that the trainer doesn’t appear to know how to school your horse and is afraid of her. If she is riding at third or fourth level she should have been exposed to horses who evade whether out of pain or because they have no aptitude or inclination for dressage.

You may want to sit down and do some soul searching as to why you caved in to your trainer and had your vet inject the stifles when the vet had already said the horse didn’t require it.

I would take the vets advice over a trainer any day especially when that vet recommends not doing an expensive procedure.

I would also think about reassessing your goals.
I understand you want to move up the levels but I would think about your horse first.
If she has stifle issues then you focus your resources on building her up in the correct way without undue stress and discomfort until she has the ability to do handle the work.

I’d hazard a guess that your horse checks out mentally because she can’t physically handle what is being required of her. She may be trying to tell you but you are not listening because you are too focussed on you and not enough on her.

This isn’t an an accusation, it is merely a suggestion. Your first thought should be about what you can do for your horse.

As far as the relationship with the trainer goes, you are paying for her advice and experience, not her friendship. This is a business relationship not a personal one.

I really hope this helps.
Good luck to you and your horse.

[staceyk]

" But dropping a trainer doesn’t seem to be the same as dropping your internet provider - it’s messier than that."

So true.

[IdahoRider]

@thecolorcoal

And yes the stifle injections are what finally tipped the scale. She didn’t need them - she needed to be ridden MORE according to the vet.

Why didn’t the vet refuse? I know my vet would not have done an expensive procedure against their own advice.
SHEILAH

[retiredhorse]

@thecolorcoal

Thank you stacey. I was also guilted into staying with the last trainer. Took a lot to get them to let me go in peace and it was not a great break. I would just like my wishes to be respected. I hate when they create drama over a business transaction. You are right - we aren’t friends. But dropping a trainer doesn’t seem to be the same as dropping your internet provider - it’s messier than that.

Yes, there are feelings and egos involved, and logistics of moving and finding another trainer. Switching internet providers has very little emotional component. But even if the other party is “creating drama”, you don’t have to take their lead. Give notice, pay your bill, and leave. Don’t get talked into staying or overthinking their motivations, because you can’t control their reactions. I would heed advice about looking into what you seek in a trainer, though, if you find that you’re in a pattern of hiring the wrong people. Do a more thorough check of their abilities and results (what are their horses in training like, do they take on horses with the issues yours has, etc), maybe do a trial period/take some lessons, before signing on completely; take a trusted, knowledgeable horse friend along with you (much like when shopping for a horse…).

@Scribbler

It’s also possible OP is not being entirely clear in describing their own abilities, horse, and goals in the trainer shopping process.

A trainer that inflates their ability and a rider that does the same can create a meeting of minds and a true honey moon period … until they actually have to work with the horse, and disillusionment sets in.

Yes, the easiest answer to me is that trainer was initially enthusiastic about working with horse & OP, if she thought they were just green and needing lessons to improve. Doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that.

…But then it turns out horse has hind end issues/NQR (yet she’s round penning her anyway), shuts down (which is not at all the same as “mellow” – to OP, a horse that is outright spooky is often far less intimidating than one that shuts down and you’re not sure what it’s going to do), OP thinks she knows more than trainer, yet follows her advice over vet’s… Can see how this is not a good fit all around.

[alibi_18]

@IdahoRider

Why didn’t the vet refuse? I know my vet would not have done an expensive procedure against their own advice.
SHEILAH

That’s not exaclty what the OP have said in her other thread…

[IdahoRider]

@alibi_18

That’s not exaclty what the OP have said in her other thread…

I will read the other thread, I am confused now. Which, admittedly, is very easy to do.
Sheilah

[alibi_18]

@IdahoRider

I will read the other thread, I am confused now. Which, admittedly, is very easy to do.
Sheilah

Between the OP’s and Manni01’s threads, it’s easy to get lost.

Go read my post #33 (p.2), I quoted the OP’s other thread.

[enjoytheride]

I think scribbler was spot on and there’s no reason for such hostility.

I think it sounds like you have a very difficult horse with soundness issues and I’m not surprised this trainer isn’t riding it. Your descriptions of shutting down, acting out, bucking, kicking, spooking all tell me that you need to get this horse sound first and then send it to be restarted. A horse that can’t be asked something more than twice without melting down is not a horse that is currently suitable for dressage training.

[SuzieQNutter]

It is not a naughty horse that shuts down, acts out, bucks, kicks and spooks. It is either a horse in pain or a horse who does not understand. By the sounds of this thread of being ridden by higher level riders it does not sound like it is a horse who should not understand. That leaves pain. JMHO.

[thecolorcoal]

@SuzieQNutter, the horse has been vetted 3 times in the past 6 months - once for vaccines in which vet did a lameness exam anyway, once for a required vet appearance for a state-issued quarantine, in which they tested for neurological lameness, and once for joint soundness (most recent). just last tuesday she had a full work up. the vet found no evidence of pain. i am struggling to figure out a way i can put this myth to bed. i even did the joint injections against my better judgment because this trainer was also convinced she MUST be in pain. she stood there and listened to the vet tell her there was no pain response anywhere, and pushed me to get these injections anyway. she rode 2 tb’s and both ended up with pain issues at the end. but just because her experience was bad doesn’t mean one has to cloud every thoroughbred as being injured and broken down somehow.

if there was pain where would it be? since everyone holds dvm’s opinions so high, is it not enough for a vet to deem a horse sound?

–

I think there is a huge difference between a horse bucking/kicking/spooking just to buck/kick/spook and a horse who is bucking/kicking/spooking because you are not communicating with it well.

I know this is a very unpopular opinion here, but for me I do not mind if horse bucks/kicks/spooks because it tells me I am not being effective in my riding. When she is focused and “on” everything is fine. If I am not being assertive and compassionate at the same time, problems develop.

We haven’t had any bucking/kicking/spooking episodes in a very, very long time.

–
FEI/GP trainer rode her Saturday and new trainer was able to watch a little of it. Considering FEI/GP trainer did not die/get hurt/get bucked with/spooked with/bolted with/etc, it convinced her horsey was fine to train… :uhoh: so she sent me a message asking me if she could ride her for her next scheduled training session and i said absolutely. hopefully this is the start of a good relationship.

[thecolorcoal]

@AnastasiaBeaverhousen

OP
What are your goals with this horse?
I’m not sure from your posts why you need two different trainers?
Why do you need the trainer to ride your horse at all?

I’m a hunter rider. I’ve ridden hunters/equitation my whole life. I only got into dressage after my horse came back from her SI rehab by bolting and bucking after the jumps. I got hurt and I re-evaluated what sport I want to ride. We worked on dressage as a way to strengthen her back, as she had no topline. It started out as horsey yoga and then turned into what I have today.

as shocking as this may seem, I was never taught to turn on the forehand, leg yield, or ride any lateral movements. I rode at A-rated hunter barns and the philosophy was point-and-shoot: point your horse at the jumps and go over them.

The trainer is there to school the movements I don’t know how to ride.

This trainer sounds like she has a lot of clients and maybe not a lot of time.
She may be the rider who can show horses but not a horsewoman who can school difficult horses. She may well be afraid of riding your horse. If she gets hurt she can’t work and she can’t pay her bills and her clients may leave her.

That may be true but what is on paper doesn’t always show up in practice. I told her the horse has a HISTORY of bucking, because I also want an insurance policy. I don’t want her to come back at me one day when something happens and claim she had no idea because I didn’t inform her. I thought what I did was the right thing, telling her our long-winded story to give her perspective. What I didn’t expect is for her to take everything I said literally and apply it to this day and age, even when the horse is NOT bronco bucking and trying to get people off. For some reason she is convinced it is lying in wait.

not making excuses for a bad trainer but I can see why she would be reluctant to ride a horse that you yourself says can be difficult.

I take pride in her not being an easy horse. That is why I bought her in the first place. I didn’t enjoy the mundane, easy hunters I rode growing up. There was no challenge, no training opportunities, no chances to grow. Riding shouldn’t just be sitting on a horse and going around in circles while the horse does everything. I like that two-way communication. I like the conversation for the entire hour I am on the horse’s back. And I never got that on the well-trained show horses I grew up riding.

I have to say I don’t think much of a trainer who insists on round penning a horse that she already knows has stifle issues.

I agree, and I told her that vet said no more round penning. Had to come from her since she won’t listen to me.

I am taken aback that you feel that the trainer doesn’t appear to know how to school your horse and is afraid of her. If she is riding at third or fourth level she should have been exposed to horses who evade whether out of pain or because they have no aptitude or inclination for dressage.

I feel the same. But it took me bending over backwards to get this lady to finally get on her…

You may want to sit down and do some soul searching as to why you caved in to your trainer and had your vet inject the stifles when the vet had already said the horse didn’t require it.

I felt like if I didn’t do the injections it would be one more excuse this lady has to not ride the horse. Now that she’s been deemed sound for work there is no other reason she needs to do “ground work.” And if she claims to not want to ride the horse after I have taken every necessary step to dismantle any and all myths she has, she isn’t the right trainer for us.

I would take the vets advice over a trainer any day especially when that vet recommends not doing an expensive procedure.

See above.

I would also think about reassessing your goals.
I understand you want to move up the levels but I would think about your horse first.
If she has stifle issues then you focus your resources on building her up in the correct way without undue stress and discomfort until she has the ability to do handle the work.

The vet said this isn’t UFP or locking patella, it is a strength issue and the only way we can help her is by building up her quads. The injections were supposed to reduce any inflammation she may have from compensating. Again, she flexed pastern, hock, and stifle on both legs and saw no change in gait.

I’d hazard a guess that your horse checks out mentally because she can’t physically handle what is being required of her. She may be trying to tell you but you are not listening because you are too focussed on you and not enough on her.

I think she is confused because she has been trained 3 different ways by 3 different trainers in 2 years. We are now removing the “spank and crank” training of our old trainer (lasted 8 months) in favor of lightness. Instead of having the leg on at every stride like the old trainer wanted, the horse is now expected to go and hold her gait with just a light touch, backed up by the whip. I was never taught this method of riding and neither was the horse, who quickly became dull from the original trainer to the point where we needed big spurs to get her forward.

This isn’t an an accusation, it is merely a suggestion. Your first thought should be about what you can do for your horse.

As far as the relationship with the trainer goes, you are paying for her advice and experience, not her friendship. This is a business relationship not a personal one.

The barn may be a boarding barn but they have created a very specific situation where only a handful of trainers are available to boarders. If you don’t like them, too bad, because these are the only ones you get to pick from. I am lucky because I also have the lady I really like working with.

I really hope this helps.
Good luck to you and your horse.