Wondering if anyone on COTH has some words of wisdom for me.
I bought a mare a few years ago, my trainer helped me find her, she came from a friend of hers. It was my first horse purchase, so I was very inexperienced with the whole process. I did have a vetting done complete with X-rays that my trainer was present for. I very naively allowed her to relay the results to me and never spoke directly to the vet.
Not very long after I brought her we started having off and on soundness issues. Fast forward to now, she is retired after receiving a career ending diagnosis. I planned to move her to a retirement facility and the vet there asked for X-rays so we could make a plan to keep her as comfortable as possible. So I request all the vet records and images.
Well, turns out all of these issues were clearly foreshadowed on the vetting with several big red flags. Not only that but apparently she was actually lame during the exam. At the time my trainer told me the vetting went well and ānothing remarkableā came up.
Please, donāt crucify me, Iāve learned my lesson and Iām kicking myself for not talking to the vet directly or being present at the appointment. But I didnāt know better at the time and trusted my trainer. Iām not sure what my next move should be, or even if there is one? Thankfully my horse is already out of there, but Iām just so upset about the whole situation.
I guess my question would be - what would you want your next move to be? Would you want your money back on the purchase? Would you want to publicly drag the trainerās name through the mud?
It sounds like there isnāt anything anyone can do about the horseās soundness at this point. It sounds like the vet did their job and turned over the records without issue. The fault here is with the trainer, but it also sounds like youāve already left trainerās barn and this happened several years ago.
If you have documentation in writing from the trainer stating that there were no issues during the PPE, you may have some sort of case and might be able to get something done financially, but if it was all verbal - I think youāre SOL.
Very high level legal concepts not specific advice about your specific situationā¦Potentially, because the trainer was your agent, this is breach of fiduciary duty and/or fraud. Donāt know what the statute of limitations is in your jurisdiction. Or whether any pursuit of a claim would be worth the cost for the potential reward. I donāt think that many trainers know that these kinds of laws apply to them. In places like Florida, there is legal precedent for sure establishing agency/fiduciary relationships. Perhaps in another area, it would be a novel issue.
Words of wisdom would be to always have a direct line of communication with the vet. You are the client. Friend of mine is horse shopping overseas and her trainer wants to control and arrange the vetting. On the one hand, my friend might be busy/working and could use an agent. On the other hand, I told her to get everything videoed and sent to her directly, to get all paperwork from the vet. To talk to the vet directly as well as the trainer. Not that I suspect her trainer would do anything intentionally. But Iāve been present with clients when I was training horses with their vets for lameness evaluation and whatnot. And hearing the client recap the findings sometimes made me say to myself, um, what, were we at the same appointment? Itās one thing if you yourself are choosing to hear or not hear certain information and you are the one writing the check. Itās another thing to be playing a game of telephone regarding something critical to your purchase decision. And I would not do that, personally.
Many jurisdictions use the ādiscoveryā concept for statutes of limitations: the time is measured from when a reasonable person discovered or should have discovered the wrongful act.
If youāre interested in pursuing it legally, talk to a lawyer. But it may not be straightforward. It might be hard to prove the horseās ultimate breakdown was caused by the same issues that were concealed during the pre-purchase. And, the PPE vet and trainer might point fingers at each other. It could be a mess.
Nothing much to add except Iām sorry that happened to you, and good on you for doing right by the horse. What a scummy ātrainerā
Fwiw and I hate to say it, but I wouldnāt be surprised if there was some back door commission deal that went on, that would explain why your trainer would lie about the PPE to get you to go through with the purchase. Especially since you said it was a friend of hers
Iām so very sorry this happened to you. And again, good for you for looking out for the defenseless horse.
Sadly, it seems many people have expensive lessons in first horses. I have one in my barn now whose owner was majorly misled. I used to be well mannered and quiet, but now I tend to be more open when I learn of dishonesty (after checking to be sure dishonest things happened).
There are some really smart people, some who I believe are lawyers, on this board. I would follow up w legal advice and at the least, ask the lawyer to write a letter stating you know said trainer misled you. Iāve no idea if there is financial restitution, or if trainer has any means to do that, but Iād sure want the trainer to know I knew what was done. Maybe you can pm @IPEsq and share specific information/ask questions (for a fee, of course). Best of luck to you.
OP, for what itās worth, this is not an uncommon occurrence. I left a barn a few years ago where they would become furious if clients spoke directly with the vets - the barn owners and trainers ( one big family, all) held close those relationships and always made decisions in the best interest of their pocketbooks, never in the horse or the client.
Plenty, and I mean lots of lame, broken horses were sold to unsuspecting clients who believed it to be disrespectful to call the vet themselves and implicitly trusted the trainers. These horses went on to break further, naturally, and while they recovered from various treatments, the barn leased out other horses to the kids (making double board). Itās a racket.
Props to you for getting your mare out of the bad situation and into a place where she will be cared for. As far as recourse, my best advice is to avoid that other barn and keep taking the higher road - I worry the drama a fight would create would only make things worse for you.
The other thing I might consider is chatting with the vet who performed the PPE and letting them know that this barn is not accurately communicating the vetās findings with potential clients. That may put pressure on the barn to more honestly and accurately communicate information that comes from these vets.
Hugs to you and your mare.
It took me two years of searching, travel, and dealing with many trainers for many sellers to finally find and buy my first horse. Along that journey, I paid for twelve pre-purchase exams, and I attended all of them, even though sellerās trainers would usually try to dissuade me.
I came away convinced that every selling trainer is hiding something. My purchase luckily turned out to be a decent horse for me. But over the following few years I talked to the seller several other times, and the story about the horse he told me at purchase time was a lot different from later stories.
First ā I am not a lawyer, and nothing I say is ever legal advice. Just someone who has been on hand for a few things.
OP, what recourse you have will depend not only on what happened, but also on how much you paid for the horse and whatever could be calculated and justified as your monetary losses due to the trainerās misrepresentation. What additional costs you had that you would not have had, if you had known the true status of the x-rays. Balanced against any benefit you had from the horse before these soundness issues took over.
You can weigh that against the cost of an attorney and all the actions that may come after. Keeping in mind that, hypothetically, if you found grounds to sue, your cost is not only the lawsuit, but also your attorneyās time to interact with her and her attorney, follow up on their communications and filings, etc. & so on.
Plus, based solely on your story in the first post, the trainer may have some counter-arguments that could hold sway in a court that doesnāt understand horse deals. Basically, she can say that evaluating āred flagsā and potential future problems is all subjective and open to interpretation, based on a number of factors. For whatever reasons she gives, she didnāt think problems would be as serious as they were. This is an open door for a judge to give the benefit of the doubt to the trainer.
And, if for some reason āinterpretationā and āsubjectiveā isnāt enough to get the trainer off, a last argument trainer could make is that because of the red flags, you got the horse for under market value. All arranged by the trainer, even if you didnāt realize it at the time.
Your best advice will be from an attorney who is familiar with equine legal issues. Totally theoretically ā The attorney could possibly contact the trainer about some sort of settlement with you, without a lawsuit. Before people snark on this idea, sometimes an out-and-out con will reimburse someone who has found them out to quiet any brewing storms. They donāt want to be outed and they donāt want paper documentation filed where it will come up on a background check. Plus you never know what their past legal history is ā they could even be on probation, and this problem could jeopardize that freedom. They may want to settle with you. And they can always find another innocent to take advantage of.
Is Rate My Horse Pro still around? If not, Iām not sure that the horse world has so much as an online review resource to at least inform people. Iām guessing that legal action against a public review might also be a consideration.
OP, none of this is criticism for you. You did the best you knew at the time.
This is a cautionary tale for future horse shoppers ā always x100 maintain a direct communication with the vet and be present at the lameness exam. Ask questions. Do not rely on a trainer or anyone else. Tell them you want to be fully informed, and that everyone has different perspectives, and you just want to hear it yourself. If they resist that, then simply say that itās your wallet, your horse, and either you are there, or you arenāt buying anything. Donāt be nice to people who arenāt being nice.
If a trainer is resistant to your direct involvement with a vet or any other treatment that is being pursued, of course that is a big red flag. Itās awful to be in this situation, but itās a sign that one may need to find a more ethical trainer.
I too am so sorry you had to go through this, OP. And I also thank you for standing by this horse, who is innocent in this journey.
Can I put a slightly different point of view? OP owned the horse for āa few yearsā before it came to be retired. The pre-purchase vetting indicated potential for certain issues but OP doesnāt say these issues were actually present at the time of purchase. Horses being horses - living, breathing creatures - their physical status will inevitably change over the years. I donāt think anyone is āat faultā for a horse coming to be retired some years later.
This would be a fair response if the trainer had been honest and upfront about the vetting. Then at that point the OP would have had all the information and could decide if they were comfortable with the risk. But the trainer lied and made that decision for them. And by the sound of it OP probably wouldnāt have bought the horse if they had known
Well, without the original vetās report, we donāt know that the trainer lied. Itās possible the original vet also said ānothing to see hereā and cleared the horse.
That said, Iām sorry this happened to you OP. I hope this doesnāt dissuade you from horses in the future.
I have know two dishonest trainers and one disreputable veterinarian (did jail time for embezzling from his vet group practice). The trainers are still in the area and in business at a low level --when either oneās name comes up, I say, āI know Katy Jones, I was disappointed in how she worked with my kidsā and their horses.ā If the listener presses me, I will give more information about how she took money in advance for a series of lessons and training, then was never available when lessons were scheduled, or was late, or was on her phone the majority of the time. Yes, I spoke with her, but after six weeks of the prepaid lessons where the kids and horses did not advance one iota, we found someone else. Katy Jones has continued in this area doing the same thing --I think people put up with her because there are no other instructors who take on beginner riders (children).
The second is a woman --weāll call her Jane Smith --who goes to the local action and buys a horse with soundness issues for cheap. She then uses the horse for lessons and leases them out to two or three (very young or very gullible) people --when the person goes to ride ātheirā horse, it is lame, or has a cough, or isnāt feeling well. Of course the lease-rider or part owner now loves the horse and pays for the vet care etc, etc, etc. She does market these horses on the web with notations on the information, āWill need constant injections, medications, vet care.ā She does have a following of parents of young kids who gather at the barn to fix things, have a work party, groom horses --so maybe not a bad thing --but I know too many kids from 4-H who bought a horse from her (or leased one) that is clearly lame or ROA.
When people ask me about Jane Smith, I say, āI know her. She has a lot of horses. Seems like she chooses horses with health problems to try to help.ā ā
My long-winded point is, while not as satisfying as a law suit, letting other horse people know in an honest but diplomatic way that the trainer is sketchy, may help some avoid her.
Oh, the vet did a little jail time, paid back his vet group, and is still practicing in the area last I knew.
Iāll wait for the OP to come back and clarify, but nothing in the original post would make sense unless the poster obtained the original vet report.
Added bolding mine.
Sheās had the horse for years. Iām trying to imagine any vet any where saying āIf this horse passed the vet 3 - 4 years ago, you were lied to.ā
