Trainer was dishonest

[ASB_Stars]

Many long years ago, my Vet told me about a horse that needed to be sold quickly, because the kid was going to college, and his father allegedly told him that he had to sell the horse to buy books, etc.

The horse had qualified his rider for the Medal MacClay’s two years in a row, and I thought, what the hell, I can flip him to a hunter trainer- I knew quite a few. I asked my Vet to do a complete set of radiographs on him, so I would have them available. She assured me that I should buy him.

When I went to look at the horse, he stood with his head in the corner of the stall and ignored me. I thought GREAT! I will not get attached to this one! I can make money! HA!

I got him home, worked him a little, and contacted some big deals that I knew. They came down and rode him, asked for the radiographs, which I hadn’t even glanced at, and turned him down. So, I decided that it might be time to look at those pictures. Bad news. He had substantial navicular changes in his right front, and his right hock and stifle weren’t pretty, either. Along about this time, he buried his head in my chest, and I knew he wasn’t leaving.

In any event, I took him off of the market, and had Dr. God, at NBC review his issues. He put him in some super special shoes, and we did isox and bute for a bit. I started swimming him two days per week, and worked him as a dressage horse. He has the high score at his first show. He was the first horse that I put the tricks on through Grand Prix. He was an awesome teacher. He became a schoolmaster that I could teach others on.

Am I pissed off at the Vet? Not really. But then again, I was in a position to do something else with the horse, rather than sell him. She’s one of those people who just think that they know better than you. That’s on her, not me.

I owned Trendy until his death in his early 20’s. I miss him still.

[trubandloki]

@mfglickman

Unhide your profile you coward.

How is this meant?

A threat?

I am not sure how else to take it, other than a threat, that is why I am asking.

[Salty]

In regards to gaslighting: I heard a trainer tell a student that the horse only seemed lame because the student was riding so badly. Sorry, but I could see that the horse was lame when the student led her into the ring. I even said something, but the trainer said, “Oh, but wait until you see her move out! She’s spectacular!”

I’m so sorry that the OP was deceived this way, and glad that she’s doing right by the horse.

[Mardi1]

@AOHunter_s

I didn’t feel any lameness those first few rides after I brought her. I’m wondering now if my previous trainer medicated her those first few weeks. Not something I would have ever imagined my trainer doing at the time, but after this experience, who knows how else I’ve been misled

Chances are you were also charged for the pain killers.

If I were in your shoes, knowing what you know now, I would contact the trainer and simply say you
wanted to let her know how the mare is doing, since there’s been a change in her care. Explain that that she’s moved to retirement farm and is doing well there. After the trainer responds with “Oh that’s great to know that she’s happy”, tell her that a requirement to be at the farm was any and all vet records were to be provided, and unfortunately, while reading through them, you and the farm discovered that the mare was actually lame at the time of the PPE according to the vet report. And, perhaps that’s why the mare had issues after purchase.
Tell her how betrayed you are with her business ethics, and then be sure to tell her how grateful you are that you rescued this mare from her program. Politely say goodbye, and you’re done.

[skydy]

I didn’t know how to take it either. It was a very strange reaction.

[SonnysMom]

I am 45 minutes from New Holland. It is very easy in my area to get them sent to slaughter either directly or indirectly. Just run them through NH with no rider, give not much back round information, don’t groom them, and the kill buyer will be bidding on them.

[Ghazzu]

@Halternatively

OP, for what it’s worth, this is not an uncommon occurrence. I left a barn a few years ago where they would become furious if clients spoke directly with the vets - the barn owners and trainers ( one big family, all) held close those relationships

I recall an interview some time back with a BNT in which he stated flat out that he didn’t “allow” hisl clients to interact directly w/ the vet.
I was appalled, but IIRC, there were a number of people who defended this practice.

[McGurk]

Yes, I am sure it is easy if you live a short distance from New Holland. The kill buyers at NH can fill a whole tractor trailer in one night and send it on its way.

If you DON’T live close to a large livestock auction, one close to a major North/South shipping route, it gets lots harder.

The profit margin on shipping horses out of the country for slaughter is pretty darn slim.

Since @LCDR has no idea what part of the country the OP is from; or if the OP has any intention of pursuing a legal memory, mentioning the possible outcome of a settlement beingo returning the horse only to have it be sent to slaughter was unecessary and unfounded scaremongering.

[NaturallyHappy]

@Ghazzu, I’m fairly certain I remember that interview; since it was in print, I think it’s ok to say I think the trainer was Geoff Teale. I was stunned…but again, as I said above, a trainer medicated my horse w/o my knowledge. There was no veterinarian involvement, though, until after the fact.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@Mardi1

If I were in your shoes, knowing what you know now, I would contact the trainer and simply say you
wanted to let her know how the mare is doing, since there’s been a change in her care. Explain that that she’s moved to retirement farm and is doing well there. After the trainer responds with “Oh that’s great to know that she’s happy”, tell her that a requirement to be at the farm was any and all vet records were to be provided, and unfortunately, while reading through them, you and the farm discovered that the mare was actually lame at the time of the PPE according to the vet report. And, perhaps that’s why the mare had issues after purchase.

I would say maybe don’t do this if you have any thought of taking legal action. Talk to a lawyer first. You don’t want to give her an opportunity to get her ducks in a row and/or tamper with evidence.

[Ghazzu]

@NaturallyHappy

I think it’s ok to say I think the trainer was Geoff Teale.

That’s my recollection as well.

[TwoStrides]

@Alterration

Secondly, it’s hard to tell from your description what Trainer did and did not know. There are x-ray findings that look bad but mean nothing at all. It’s entirely possible that Trainer had a horse with x-rays just like yours, and it turned out fine.

It doesn’t matter if the X-rays “looked bad but meant nothing,” or if the “trainer had one with X-rays just like yours and it turned out fine.” The OP should have been given all the facts. If the trainer wanted to give her opinion and experience on something that they didn’t think was a big deal that’s fine. But the trainer had no right to omit this information altogether because they are not writing the check, nor will they be responsible for the financial burden of an unsound horse should it break down as in this case.

[Alterration]

Oh absolutely. But if you read the rest of my post - I simply mean it’d be hard to prove in a court of law.

[Halternatively]

The concept of denying me (the owner) the opportunity to make informed decisions about my own horse is entirely abhorrent to me.

Here we are, some of us, horrified by the thought of kids who can’t properly tack up or wrap or treat a basic wound, etc., and yet these same kids are likely prevented from learning these things by trainers who knowingly keep their clients dependent on them for all of the things. I’d argue that it is all to the detriment of the horses.

Ghazzu, I appreciate that you are appalled by this. I appreciate my own vets for including me in decision making for my horses.

[DMK]

I was appalled by that and at the same moment had a moment of empathy for all the trainers and vets who have worked with uninformed newbie owners in good faith, trying to explain to them that nothing passes of vet check with a score of 100. PPEs are just a no-win situation for anyone who is not somewhat experienced in horse ownership and cognizant of all the risks associated with them. It seems like there’s no good answer, until you get to a thread like this where you realize there is very definitely an extremely wrong answer!

[Rumorhasit93]

@SpicyPRE

Trainers who take advantage of their novice clients infuriate me.

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

My friend’s old trainer got her to buy a $350k “investment” horse. It is not even the hack winner (in fact it’s lucky to place). They’re now trying to sell it for a loss because…duh.

And the OPs situation and my friend’s happen all. The. Time.

[Alterration]

@Rumorhasit93

My friend’s old trainer got her to buy a $350k “investment” horse. It is not even the hack winner (in fact it’s lucky to place). They’re now trying to sell it for a loss because…duh.

So - ok…what are we doing that allows this?

People will act unethically so long as there is incentive to do so. And let’s face it, there’s a lot more incentive to act unethically than not. Monetarily the equine world is tough. Trainers don’t get to that level by being “nice”.

Please note - NOT saying it’s right - just saying it is the way things are.

There’s no KBB for hunters, where you can see that a horse is actually worth $350k. Do people hire appraisers at this level? Should they? Is there some other independent “body” that could do this?

Fair warning, I’ve had some wine and I’m just sitting here ruminating - but over my 35 years in hunter-land I keep hearing this same story. Somehow we never seem to correct it. Maybe trainer gets sued, most likely the owners lose…because so much of the equine world is subjective.

But what if it wasn’t? What if there was some independent way to make sure something was at least close?

Couldn’t solve for mystery lamenesses and bad training and all the rest of the weirdness that can happen - but at least at the time of purchase?

[OverandOnward]

I can’t answer for the culture in the hunter world.

But generally among horse people, especially learners, a big step to cutting down on fraud is to teach self-sufficiency. A more comprehensive view of horses and horsemanship. And also, knowledge of how to get more expert opinions, where to look for good assessments of horses.

More time learning on top of time riding. Not just the parts of the horse, but perhaps the two or three things most likely to go wrong with the major parts.

Teach them to ask questions and get answers. To always be at the vet appointment, and maybe the farrier as well. Listen and learn.

That they don’t have to be an expert in everything. Just pick up general knowledge, and know how/where to ask for help.

And most important: Not to tolerate any trainer who tries to prevent the owner’s direct involvement with these functions. When to call ‘foul’ and move on.

[2DogsFarm]

I was blessed, as a re-rider in my 30s, to have a trainer who:
*Had gone to college in Germany, specifically to learn to ride Dressage.
This was mid-80s & the discipline was not wildly popular in my part of the Midwest.
*Had zero ego
*Shared the kind of knowledge you mention & in a way no client ever felt belittled
*Had us learning things noone else was teaching.
Example: Vaulting
Group of 3, all adults, using a DraftX schoolie & trainer’s vaulting surcingle, complete with handholds for maneuvers including the Cossack Hang.
He was proficient & made it look effortless.
Us? Not so much
I never could run alongside & vault on - he’d run with me & toss me up
We did manage a pyramid.
Itself a Feat as we varied in height from barely 5’ to over 6’
*Also taught us much about horse care.
Being a lesson barn, often this meant horses were tacked up & waiting for the next scheduled lesson. Not the horses his clients were assigned.
We groomed, cooled down, untacked & cleaned tack. Learned to wrap legs, both for support & shipping, learned about meds.
He’s been gone from my Life for over 30yrs, gone from this Earth over 20.
I miss him still.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@DMK

trying to explain to them that nothing passes of vet check with a score of 100.

FWIW, I can think of two instances where I heard trainers go off on buyers who noped out on horses because the PPE showed issues, “what do they expect, a perfect horse, so what, these are minor issues,” and what do you know, in both instances those horses were unrideable within 6 months.

Ultimately, a horse buyer is the one writing the checks, not the trainer. Heck, a buyer can even make a DUMB decision not to buy a horse for a ridiculous reason, because, ya know, it’s the buyer’s money!

I totally agree that knowledge is the best cure for being taken advantage of–although, until someone gets that deep knowledge (which takes years and years), a certain amount of cynicism and a willingness to ask questions is important. So many people get intimidated by trainers who act personally offended if someone asks questions.