Trainer was dishonest

Sure, if they are knowledgeable enough to know that equine appraisers exist. But newbies probably don’t.

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In my long association with various Pros (should add Air Quotes :roll_eyes:), I’ve seen a lot of this.
Clients not in contact with vet or shoer, everything filtered through the trainer.
The trainer/friend I mentioned above once gave me this basic Truth:
You empower the trainer
Yup.
Can you imagine going to the grocery store & having an employee tell you what brand you will buy?
And you do so without question.
Kinda the same.

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Totally! But even from my personal POV, it took a long time to separate that while in a lesson my trainer was right about using the outside rein or that I was twisting my body in a weird way…that didn’t mean that everything the trainer said was right about horse keeping or horse selling. In other words, even if the trainer rides better than you and even if they have more experience, that doesn’t mean you can suspend your judgement.

I think a good parallel is home repairs. Hopefully, your plumber knows more than you about installing a sump pump, but if something he says sounds weird or overly costly, do some Googling and asking around before saying “yes.”

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My first forays into horse ownership (I must have had “sucker” written across my forehead):

When I bought my first horse (in 1976, cheap OTTB, paid cash), I asked the seller if I should add sales tax to the price. “Oh, of course”, he said, which gouged a few extra bucks out of me. He was the barn owner where I boarded–did he never think I would find out that?

Second horse I paid $5,000 for (in 1977). Found out later he took a commission of $500, his sister (who found the horse) another for $500, and the seller took yet another $500.

The second horse was not working out for me. Barn owner suggested a trade for a new horse in the barn. However, he explained that the new horse cost $6,000, so I would have to add $1,000 to the trade. The owner of the new horse had casually told me she had paid $1,500 for him. I told the barn owner no deal.

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The scary part here is that sometimes this is due to the trainer not having a decent education in equine health issues.
Just because someone had a decent junior “career” in the equitation ring and can put in a smooth hunter round doesn’t mean they understand what goes into locating and maintaining a performance horse.

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Oh god this is whole other can of worms.

Local pro here (who is very well known nationally), was just that. Said pro’s grooms essentially ran the entire program from horse care to barn maintenance. Which means the grooms (who knew what they were doing, thankfully) were deciding what the horses ate and when, how they were lunged and worked, etc.

We have an entire generation of riders who were handed the reins and never backed up let alone do anything else to care for a horse who have ambitions of becoming a pro and have no knowledge to pass down to the next generation.

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I think this is all connected. Trainers without the education, owners without the education…

But it’s not like that knowledge isn’t out there. There are a ton of books that have chapters on buying horses. I’m sure there are videos as well.

It’s not hard to find the education, so why don’t we (and that’s the global we) do it?

I find the attitude that equestrians have to formal learning (or even informal learning) odd.

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Absolutely. Chicken or the egg, essentially.

I think the difficult part is, for the amateur equestrian, many of us have “paid our dues” back in the day, now we have full time careers, sometimes children/families, and our kid’s activities also.

For me personally, being an amateur is the reward for all I went through in my youth. I was fortunate enough to have my horses at home, an A circuit childhood, and turned pro (although I use that term lightly in my situation) at a young age, now I have a family (and get to have a glass of wine at the end of a show day).

I did ride at a TOP barn who seemed annoyed I was at every vet appointment. But I didn’t care. And if they said something, I’d kindly let them know I’d leave and they can pay the vet bill.

I say all of this to somewhat defend the seemingly un-involved amateur. That, I am not. But I know many people who are, obviously including my friend who essentially got scammed.

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Maybe those are the most important attributes to teach to every horse person! :slight_smile: From the day they first go to inquire about horse riding lessons, and every day after that for the rest of their horse-life.

When someone is new to a sport or any endeavor, especially a sport like horses that is more of a way of life than it is a weekend entertainment, I think they come in feeling they know absolutely nothing. They understandably feel dependent on the experts they are newly associating with.

And – trusting. A bit idealistic about the motives and kindness of the experts around them.

Unfortunately it can take years for many of them to come to a greater awareness that they are surrounded by humans with different levels of expertise and honesty.

And, they feel rightly that they don’t know what to look for. They don’t know what they are seeing in front of them. Some do better than others at adding self-education to what they are learning (or not learning) at the barn.

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I’m not passing judgement - don’t get me wrong - just trying to find the pressure point that could solve it. Because while it would be “nice” if all equine pros were ethical and everything was perfect, that’s not ever going to happen.

So is there some place that we could actually leverage to help people before they learn these lessons the hard way, because I’ve just seen too many cases of it.

Maybe it’s the pros who need to not be under such financial pressure, or we need to certify them and they can lose their license, like doctors and lawyers, or we need to make it more obvious that there are appraisers to help with these transactions.

I don’t know - I’m just tossing things out there because what we’re doing right now doesn’t seem workable.

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Quite some years back, my sports medicine vet used to offer seminars that helped people develop their eye for soundness issues. I attended one where the demo horses included lesson horses, privately owned horses, rehab horses, and retired horses. Some were unsound to varying degrees, some were completely sound. Most were owned by the barn or its clients, but a few had been trailered in for the seminar, and all owners had given permission for their horse to be used in the seminar.

The seminar participants were asked to evaluate each horse as it was walked and trotted in hand and also worked briefly on the lunge (if capable). The vet then walked us through his assessment and WHY he felt that way. There was lots of nodding of heads and folks saying, “Ah. I see!”

It was super informative and very educational and I have often thought that kind of program could be a really helpful thing for a club to offer to its members. I did make that suggestion to a local club and a local barn, but neither the club nor the owner/trainer at the barn were interested - the club didn’t think it would draw enough participants to make money, and I got the feeling that the trainer preferred for clients to stay uneducated. :roll_eyes:

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My goodness . After reading all the replies on here why would I even involve a trainer in a horse purchase or get a PPE?

It not only seems like what happened to the OP is common but it is also an accepted practice by so many??

Maybe if disgruntled buyers started suing , the dishonest trainers might be more above board? The way to stop it is to not just say :

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I have been self board my whole life, from age 14. As a teen I called the vet and farrier myself, and paid attention. And read what I could find

As an adult, I at least had enough knowledge base to get excited about all the new developments in nutrition, vet care, DNA, saddle fit, and hoof care.

I have a coach, a hoof trimmer, a vet, an independent saddle fitter, and a body worker on my care team. I’ve learned a lot from all of them. I feel they are all the best I can find locally for me and my horse. But I also recognize that when they go “off label” and the body worker talks about nutrition or the coach talks about saddle fit, they aren’t necessarily right. And I should run it past the real expert.

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I must be reading a different thread than you are because I do not see where “so many” find what happened to the OP is common or an accepted practice.

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You’re missing my point I think.

I’ve seen a lot of cases and a lot of these types of suits. It doesn’t seem to have stopped the practice. When it ain’t working, the rational choice isn’t to do more of it.

Hence my question!

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Legal action will be expensive, time consuming and messy. This way is direct, to the point, and done.
Everything of importance is covered.

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No, its not common but its not that unusual either. Those new to horses, the ones who don’t know what they don’t know, are often taken in by low end “trainer/“dealers and ignore numerous red flags. There is also a more complicated client relationship due to misplaced loyalty to “trainer” by clients who think they are close friends and trainer would never mislead or take advantage of them. Easy marks.

This can happen all the way up to top levels but those clients have the knowledge and discretionary funds to take legal action…and they do.

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I guess we read things a bit differently?

There is a significant number of replies where condolences are given to the OP but the overall consensus is that it happens more than you would think and it seems like nothing is/ can be done about it .

That means (to me) it is a somewhat accepted practice in some areas of the horse world— not here so much .

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Gotcha. I did miss your point.

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I understand what you are saying. I don’t think it’s actually accepted as much as people aren’t sure/don’t know how to prevent it.

A friend was taking lessons from a trainer. Said trainer was helping her find a horse. She showed me a video…and I gave her my very honest, reasonably educated opinion; I suspected the horse had minor neurologic deficits and was unsuitable. She bought it on trainer’s advice without vetting. He didn’t work out…

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