Its a largely unregulated environment with no barriers to entry. There is little or no specific consumer protection other then for more experienced owners and riders to keep advising others to do their due diligence selecting boarding barns and trainers. But we can’t force others to listen.
Horse traders have been around since chariots got popular and sleazy used car salesmen took over in the last century. Same method of operation, same results.
Not being able to do something about it does not in anyway equal that it is an accepted practice. Wow. That is a twist and a half.
It’s not so much that they ignore red the flags, but because they don’t know what they don’t know, they don’t recognize them as red flags.
Years ago I worked for a vet. Vet did a PPE on a pony. The pony was a bit famous in pony circles. Situation was that trainer A had the pony for a client before, then sold pony to an owner with trainer B. Pony was for sale again, trainer A wanted to buy it back for a new client. Hence the PPE. PPE took place at trainer B’s barn and only trainers A and B were present. They were friends. X-rays were not good. Vet had concerns about purchase or, at a minimum, the purchase price, which was the same years-earlier sale price.
The vet was a straight talking person, but had trouble making themselves heard over trainer A and B joking and acting so weird, and literally nobody gave a shit what the vet said. Vet insisted they speak to prospective buyer directly, as they were paying for the PPE. Vet was on the phone with buyer, and trainer A kept talking over vet and either called the buyer herself right then and there or took vet’s phone and talked—I don’t remember precisely, but it was nuts. I remember thinking that the trainer was on drugs. The vet was not happy. I think my jaw must have been on the floor. The buyer agreed to buy the horse for full price on the spot, and I was like, gosh, these PPEs are a racket
In all of the PPEs I have been involved in, either as a buyer or a seller or an adviser, I have NEVER had a vet who recommended one way or the other on the purchase. In fact, they’ve specifically said “I can’t recommend you [your client] to buy or not” because of liability. Their job is simply to report on what they find or see on that day and in that moment. I’ve also never had a vet who asked or commented on purchase price, surely that is not relevant to the findings of the PPE?
It’s interesting that concurrent to this thread, there is also a thread in Eventing “Benchmark Sporthorses” discussing the various tolerance of findings in a PPE and how it relates to future soundness or risk assessment in purchases. There’s a LOT of variation in opinions.
Exactly. Vets are not market experts. They are not advisors on horses for a particular purpose, they are not discipline professionals or trainers. They are experts at health, lameness, etc. & so on.
PPE remarks by a vet are normally confined strictly to a health etc. summary, with conditions and future potential conditions indicated, treatment and maintenance recommendations if needed, etc. & so on. Red flags for future issues are noted. How the horse would be able to cope with the purpose wanted, based on the exam at that moment, and what should be avoided or minimized (examples would be jumping or cutting or speed games, if the horse was sound but had a fragile condition).
Vets may not have been able to get their points across to a buyer. But in recent decades vets do not tell buyers to buy or not, or make any remarks on price.
This was not so long ago. I still remember it. I don’t know if it was settled or resolved in another manner. However, this was and still is a BNT and the amount of profit was considerable. It seems to me to not have been a straightforward transaction, but a dubious one.
I can’t find the PDF of the lawsuit, but the evidence against Heritage, that was posited in the lawsuit, seemed quite damning to me.
Here was the light-ish piece from COTH. I still can’t find the actual legal filings.
Anyway, it seems to me, that the point being is apparently that even our BIG TIME FAMOUS PEOPLE are not immune to trying to squeeze the last dime that they can from their clients in a less than honest manner.
Now, if anyone knows that Heritage (et al) have been exonerated, please let me know. “Settled” the lawsuit however, is not being exonerated.
This is still a respected EQ barn in the U.S. in which people have their kids training to ride towards the big EQ and jumper classes.
I hope wealthy people who want to give their kids a great horsey education won’t be completely turned off of horses for their kids, because of disingenuous (to put it mildly) horse traders. I hope that no parents get burned by dodgy trainers or dealers. No one deserves to be ripped off, no matter what price they are paying, large or small.
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/griffith-and-heritage-farm-face-pony-sale-lawsuit/
Edited to correct an horrendous sentence.
Yeah I don’t think it was the vet recommending the price with the buyer—my post was inaccurate in that way. It was a long time ago and I am trying to untangle all the weirdness of it. I do recall discussion at the PPE about what level the pony was being purchased for and fitness for that level. I think the price issue likely came up later in my private convo with the vet. I would do the billing in the truck after the calls and the vet would make enlightening comments.
Bottom line: no one cared a whit for the PPE results, I think the vet felt a bit used and was put in an awkward situation. That was my perspective. On the other hand, vet made good money on PPEs so shrug
In the mid 80’s I worked briefly at a lesson barn. The trainer sold a grey Welsh show pony. The purchaser had a local vet who was the trainer’s vet do the PPE. She had the vet do the PPE on another sound grey Welsh pony. She knew the one she sold would not pass the vetting. I found out about it later. The vet knew both ponies so I feel like he would have known he was vetting the wrong pony.
That trainer was a piece of work.
One client moved to Colorado and left her horse for trainer to sell. He sold quickly. She continued to charge her board, shoeing, vet bills etc… She would have the farrier shoe one of her horses and would tell him the horse was the sold horse. She had a horse colic and told the vet it was the name of the sold horse.
Client eventually called to say she was coming back to visit in a week and wanted to see her horse. Oh good news he just sold.
Regarding vets not advising buy or not to buy. The paperwork always says it’s an assessment and not a buy/no buy conclusion etc. But imhe, particularly more Seasoned vets, will verbally advise me.
One very prominent vet vetted one for me that was a little off on the hard circle. Horse was being sold due to financial shortage of seller and didn’t have shoes on for a long time. So I asked could that just be foot soreness. He said yes, and we decided to xray the feet first. Called me back: navicular changes. “Emily, I don’t think this is the horse for you.” This was the first time I’d ever used this vet.
Had another vetting where the vet found spurring in the coffin joint. Paraphrasing “Emily please don’t buy him”. This vet and I were pretty close.
I think newer vets are more disciplined not to give such opinions because it is a legal problem. I prefer to have my vet who has to maintain the horse, vet it if possible. They will tell you how hard they think it will be to maintain the horse.
I assume everyone has different experiences.
I’ve had a vet advise me not to buy a horse based on review of X-rays. It was in their opinion a situation of “when” there would be a problem, not “if”, and whenever it did go bad, it was going to be very bad. Now, there was no way to tell if that would be within 6 months or 10 years, really. But the vet knew I was already spending a lot of money on a horse with a lot of problems, and they felt I didn’t need to buy this potential problem. I did see the seller of the horse a year later, and he had sold locally and was apparently still doing fine at that time. Don’t know what the horse is up to now. Most of the time, the conversation with my vet is a bit different, but the conversation is always with me directly. And of course if the horse is doing a job at the time at the same or higher level that you are looking for, you do need to consider that performance history when evaluating the images and the clinical exam. The recommendation or risk evaluation for the same findings might be different on a 3-4 year old versus a 7-12 year old that has been in significant work. Also having some knowledge of any treatment or maintenance (or lack there of) can be important, which is where sellers (versus buyer agent) might tiptoe into the potential fraud area if they make representations that are not truthful when asked.
It isn’t that you can’t try and do something about it and get your money back/ out the trainer/ etc…
Looks like many just choose not to do anything when it happens to them( or those they know) for various reasons. Saying " that is unfortunate but it happens" . Sounds kind of like accepting the practice to me.
I have had similar experiences.
My preferred vet for PPEs was a long tenured, crusty old soul who didn’t care if she pissed a trainer, buyer or seller off and just called them as she saw them. Now, not everything made it into the written report, but I got great info from standing next to her watching the horse go.
Also, on the PPE forms with which I am familiar, there is a spot for “purpose intended”; eg, light trail riding, local showing, dressage, eventing up to _____level, etc.
The conclusion of the assessment states that the horse is servicably sound for purpose intended, servicably sound for purpose intended with reservations (listed below) or not servicably sound.
80% of the PPEs with which I was involved were the middle category, serviceably sound with reservations, and the difficulty, especially for new horse owners, was reading the list of reservations and deciding what was critical and what wasn’t. This is absolutely where you want a pro’s or knowledgeable friend’s opinion on the findings. Things like an old cold, splint, high up on a foreleg are easy to give a pass.
In the Heritage case, a 6 yo pony with coffin bone rotation visible on xray? That had to be nerve blocked to compete previously? Yikes, yikes, yikes, yikes.
I feel certain that I have seen cases where the seller substituted a sound plain bay horse for an unsound one, or a different grey pony. I hope microchipping has put a stop to some of that.
Years ago I used a very well known vet in the Cleveland area for a PPE. He said, “If you were my daughter, I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying this horse was safe for your intended use.”
Later, when I shared the x-rays of a horse I was buying out of state, he said, “As long as you’re not going to be eating peanut butter for a month, this horse looks like a good bet.”
I don’t know whether the first horse stayed sound but he had an old coffin bone injury that hadn’t healed properly.
My vet of many years would certainly “recommend” whether I purchased or not based on PPE. This well respected vet knew me from previous vet visits and was aware that I would not want a horse that needed to be medicated to do a job.
This vet was knew I bought to keep and would medicate in old age or for comfort but not for riding.
He is no uncertain terms would say this is not the horse for you or you daughter.
I once had a buyer’s vet ask if the purchase price was more or less than a figure he quoted, I guess that determined the degree of vetting he thought it required.
No, I think the vet was trying to consider the level of scrutiny required and appropriate follow up.
If it’s an $6 K local trail horse that’s serviceably sound, probably not going to ask for xrays of every major joint including ones that are clinically unremarkable. Maybe just navicular films and hocks if the horse flexs at all abnormally.
If it’s as $50K yearling aimed at a sport horse career, xraying every joint starts to seem more reasonable. Or if it’s a 8 - 12 yo performance horse selling for 6 figures, yah, xray everthing including the neck and back.
I just don’t see vets being concerned with purchase price otherwise.
I would think the buyer would have that conversation. And I saw the exam 
A buyer’s vet exposes themselves to a lot less risk telling the seller to walk than telling the seller to buy. I bet there are way fewer anecdotes about a vet telling a seller TO BUY a horse.
Does the US system allow the use of Arbitration/arbitrators to settle civil complaints vs court?
might be an easier and less costly way for the OP to get closure vs going to court.
I hope OP does confront her previous coach in a legal manner. All to often horse people avoid taking legal steps and it allows shady deals to just keep happening.
Years ago, I had a horse in to sell for a young adult who couldn’t afford to keep her any more. She had bought this horse through her coach when she turned 18 and had come into an inheritance (she was an orphan in the foster system). I quickly found a buyer, but the vet check showed VERY bad coffin bones (it wasn’t an old horse). We managed to get the x-rays from when the young adult bought her, and it showed rotated coffin bones among other issues. The coach had told her the horse “passed” the vet, and she never thought to question it or ask details.
Trainers like this need to be called out.
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