Training a Green Driving Horse

[Chewbacca]

Hi All;

Another training question here. I’ve been working with my horse to train him to drive for the last few weeks. I’ve gotten him to the point of being hitched. He’s been hitched to my new meadowbrook three times. I have people helping me on the ground with him. He stands for hitching like a pro doesn’t move a muscle and I can put the cart on him by myself. He’s a very very good boy.

I am worried about messing up his training and just want to make sure I’m doing everything correctly. I’ve never trained a horse to drive before.

He is not really pushing into the breast collar. He’ll veer sideways, and although he steers while being ground driven, and while pulling PVC poles at the walk and trot, when put to, the steering isn’t there. He’ll stop and then he won’t push into the collar again to go forward, so my ground people have to grab the reins and get him to move.

He’s only been put to 3 times, and has only been asked to walk short distances. I’ve tried once in the arena and we did 2 laps.

Is this fairly normal sounding? Do horses usually push into the breast collar right away, or does it take some teaching? Should I probably use a whip a little to get him to move?

Thanks for any input.

Life in 2020

Horses. Life. Photography.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

is your breastcollar fitting properly? Below the windpipe but right above the point of the shoulder? I could see him being hesitant if the weight of the cart starts to restrict his windpipe. Some horses dont like breastcollars and do better in full collars, which are difficult to measure for, but are better in the long run, much easier for the horse to pull. Breastcollars apply pressure or “pinch” with the horses movement once they step into them. If yours is narrow, it may be causing discomfort, you might get a wide pad to put under it for a temporary fix, or get a nice padded shaped collar, such as a Super V or Freedom Collar type.

I have never had a problem with a horse not wanting to step into the collar. Either mine just didnt care, or my equipment has never bothered them.

ETA: I just looked at your blog and saw your pics. In my opinion, this breastcollar is VERY narrow, making all the weight of the cart and you be distributed to such a small narrow area of his chest. It also looks to be ON the point of his shoulder, which with the way his neck ties in low, it looks to be you either have to place it there, or it will cut off his wind pipe. This is creating a lot of “pinch” effect on the point of his shoulder, which is actually taking all the weight side to side as he walks forward. I dont think adding a pad will really correct this, but might help in the short term. To be honest, i wouldnt use this on him again. I wouldnt want him to get discouraged by the discomfort. Look at getting him a Super V or Freedom Collar shape (Country Carriages or Camptown Harness) or a full collar. The Super V made SUCH a difference for my mini who used to pull in a straight breastcollar, but he’s got the same low set neck, it was hard to find a happy place with a straight breastcollar without restricting the shoulders or cutting off his air. He still went, he’s a work-a-holic, but the freedom in his shoulders and movement improved so much when i switched to a Super V. He didnt seem to struggle as much on hills either, he’s much more willing to lean into the breastcollar now.

The whip is an aid, it can mean forward or turn, if you’ve been using it in your ground driving, i find that perfectly acceptable to use with the cart, BUT not if something is not fitting correctly and asking the horse to work through that discomfort.

It might be that it’s just very weird for him and he may need the headers to continue leading him along to help him feel comfortable for a little while longer. If that’s the case, i would encourage him with the whip at the same time the leader asks him to walk forward to he gets well used to the cue.

Hopefully others will chip in here if they’ve had similar experiences.

ETA again… lol… I scrolled down further on your pics and saw the side shots of him with the cart. Possibly a couple more fit/balance issues going on. By the way the shafts want to curve slightly upwards to the saddle, and the way the tug strap on the saddle is being pulled backwards off the saddle skirts… I think you’ve got a balance issue with the cart. The seat is a bit forward of the wheel axle, this is putting your weight in front of the axle, which is going to put all the weight of the cart on the horse’s back. Can the wheel axle move forward? or the seat move back at all? You want about 7lbs on the saddle to 0lbs. You dont want the weight so beyond the axle that it’s lifting the horse off the ground either… If you dont know how much weight is there, put your husband in the cart and lift the shafts to the height your horse has to wear them. How much weight are you holding? A balanced cart will sit lightly in your hands in that spot, we call this “floating the shafts” because once in the tugs, the shafts literally can float, not putting any pressure on the bottom of the tug whatsoever. That’s the sweet spot if you can get it!

The saddle of your harness is fitting this guy a bit weird. He’s got a forward girth groove, which is pulling the tree up into his wither, and i think this is another reason the tugs want to pull backwards off the skirts. When you put the saddle on, you might think about putting it an inch further back and really think of putting the girth further back. Your saddle does not have to be tight, it’s not necessary. So there shouldnt be so much “pull” for it to settle in closer to his elbows or wither.

I hope that helps. If it doesnt make sense, i’ll try to explain it better.

[Chewbacca]

Ok, thanks for the response. Much of what you said is what I’m assuming too…

Yes, the BC is narrow, and I’m awaiting the arrival of a nice pad. I had a very thick pad that I made, but it wasn’t quite working with the BC so I took it off. Waiting for a “normal” pad to arrive in the mail.

This is a cheap harness. I’m saving up to get a good harness for him, but it’s going to take about 3-4 months to get. I’m paranoid though, about causing him discomfort. I did it with the saddle when I was riding him, and don’t want to do it with the driving tack. Since i can’t ride, I’d like to at least drive.

I’ve been having a heck of a time finding a good place to set that BC. It’s either too low or too high on the windpipe. There seems to be no happy medium. I keep stopping and adjusting every few minutes to try to get it to work, but it really doesn’t seem to be. Maybe I can just get the proper BC for now and the rest of the harness later. LOL.

I actually have been thinking that I have the shafts too low in the tug loops, and think one adjustment I need to make is to raise the tug loops? Do you not agree? Because it seems to me that the point of the shaft tips is sitting a little low and needs to come up a little higher. My helper said that right now, the BC & the shafts are at the same level and the shafts should be a littler higher than the BC? Sound right or not?

When my hubby is sitting in the cart, I feel almost no pressure on my hands. But now that I look at it, I do see what you mean about the seat being forward of the axle. However, I don’t think it moves at all.

And I’m not sure what you mean by how the saddle is fitting exactly, but I’ll take a closer look at it and move the saddle back a bit…

Oh boy. Maybe I should put all this training on hiatus until I resolve these issues. I don’t want to screw this up.

Thanks for the input.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I know totally where you are coming from having worked my way up through several harnesses to get the stuff i really wanted. If i had it to do all over again, i would have just put what i wanted on a credit card and saved myself a lot of hassle and money in the buy/sell process!

You have small pics on your blog, so this is hard to show you. But the purple line shows how your saddle is wanting to sit in that forward girth groove. It’s running right into his elbows and being pulled forward into his wither. The red line (which got a little crooked, sorry) is more how it should be. It may never stay perfectly straight, but i think loosening it up so it doesnt want to pop forward in front of his belly will help you out.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/butlerfamilyzoo/chewie19small.jpg?t=1305120436

If your cart is applying a lot of weight on the saddle, with it pulling into his wither it might be causing discomfort on his wither when you start and stop with so much play in your tug strap (since it wants to fall behind the saddle).

Your tugs should stay within the limits of the saddle skirts. This might just be a tightening issue, tighten down your tug strap and see if it stays there. It should never pull behind the saddle skirts like yours is doing. Try tightening that and see if it helps, if not, i dont know if this is a saddle fit issue, a weight issue from the cart, a forward girth groove issue, or… I just dont know without being there.

[goodhors]

You could order JUST a V or shaped breastcollar alone, in a WIDE width, use it with the present harness until you decide to buy the whole new harness.

You will be making him uncomfortable trying to compromise using the old breastcollar and a pad. The pad won’t CHANGE anything of the fit, just thickens the layer between bone and breastcollar. Still will be pushing on his windpipe, point of shoulder, when his head goes down to actually pull like for a hill.

Has horse pulled tires at all? I would recommend this, in addition to the poles he has already pulled simulating shafts. We poke a hole thru the tread of tire, put a cross piece of wood or metal bar, then attach a rope and run rope out the hole for pulling. No wear on the rope while dragging. Tire is not huge for a horse, smaller for ponies. What you want him doing is learning the constant drag feel. Not heavy, just steady, plus the feel of traces on his sides, movement as tire swings on the circle while you longline. Tires are good because most carts are light, no EFFORT to pull or move cart. Tires are a bit more work, so feel differently. You can walk or trot him on the circle, get the tire swinging about.

I would NOT advise pole dragging, like fenceposts or logs behind him. Logs tend to get hung up, swing erratically when you add any speed. A dangerous combination with a green horse. Tires are rounded, rub off most things as you drag them, and tend to stay down on their sides unless you really swing tire into something hard. You can add a second tire to add fitness or teach horse to work against more drag. It is the resistance of tire to being dragged, that makes them such good tools. Not heavy, just resistant with the sidewalls being a lot of area on the dirt.

However, you need horse to be comfortable in his harness fit, able to use his head and neck, no pinching on shoulder point bones or windpipe. Sorry, I just don’t think a new pad is going to do it for him. Comfort must be found before you continue, or horse will get resistant, since it is painful to work, no MATTER how much he wishes to cooperate with you.

[Chewbacca]

Thanks for the great advice. Butler, thanks for the image. If you click on my images on the blog, they get a whole lot bigger.

I believe the issue is simply just me. My little horse plague. I really thought I could get my horse driving. Now I’m not sure if I just put the whole idea on the back burner, or send him to a trainer for proper training, which I should have done in the first place, I bet.

Either way, I am not able to go forward, I understand.

As Goodhors pointed out, I do not want to make my horse uncomfortable, and I certainly don’t want to sour him. I know how quickly they can sour and I don’t want to go down that road again.

Goodhors --I haven’t had him pull a tire, but he has pulled a sled with me on it. He pushes into the BC fine with that. He simply will not push into the BC with weight of 300 or more pounds, and I can see how resistant he is.

I’m not blind to the fact that I’ve failed in his training and if I continue, I’ll only sour him. I know this, and the only solution I see is to forget about driving. I’ve already had to stop riding, I at least thought since my little mini and the hackney pony can pull or my husband just fine, that I could get my QH to pull me. I had hoped to compete with him in CDE’s and the like eventually, but it looks like that’s just simply going to be a no go.

It is what it is. I didn’t realize the problems I was causing with the equipment I have and I’m sure if I get all new equipment, I’ll still have issues because I haven’t trained him right.

Maybe in a few months I can afford to send him to a trainer.

[MunchingonHay]

I sent you a PM earlier, I hope that you got it.

Why do you boo hoo all the time? I read the very first thread you started months ago about your horses’ having back issues. Lots of people on this forum, including myself, gave you good sound advice.

DO NOT GIVE UP ON YOUR PASSION just because you feel that you ‘tripped’ up a little. that’s just silly.

When a horse bucks you off, you get right back on.

Go back to ground driving him with a tire. Please do not put yourself on a sled and have him drag you around. Use a tire…I keep getting mental images of him spooking at something and you getting hurt being so close to his back end.

Use this forum, Goodhors, Butlerfam, CDE driver, Zu Zu,and many others, there are a good dozen or so horse drivers on this board. We might not all agree on how a horse is worked or how someone does something, but we all have a love for driving and we love encouraging other people to drive.
So you made a mistake on the harness, big deal, people make mistakes all the time. You stopped making a mistake when you asked questions and figure out how to fix something.

Check out the classifieds, CD-List is another resource you can use. Ask one of us if we know of someone with a harness you can get cheap. Use your resources to your advantage and if you have a question ask.

has G.I Joe says, ‘And learning is half the battle.’

pep talk over…go gett’em tiger !

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I dont think any of us have said you screwed up your horse and your both finished! Chin up, fix it!

I dont care if you have him drag you with a sled or if you pull a tire or if you use a bazillion PVC poles. If your horse trusts you and you are using common sense in using them, i dont think it’s going to screw up anything. Any dumb stuff we do with our horses helps make them bombproof.

So the harness isnt perfect and you need a new one. We’ve ALL been there. I dont think a single one of us got the perfect harness for the horse we bought it for the very first try. In 2yrs of driving, i’ve been through 5 and am ordering the 6th, for only 2 ponies! The most valuable info i’ve gotten was here on this forum. It’s like having a bunch of free instructors willing to give me their point of view, which is fabulous! I dont have to agree with them, and i dont have to use their advice, but it gives me a lot of tools in my box to try if i screw it up!

I have learned LOADS from this forum, i would not be where i am without it. I can count on one hand the amount of driving lessons i’ve had with actual instructors and i’ve never been to a clinic or watched a CDE, i own no driving books, and my only “driving” related DVDs are on long reining. I learn by reading here and from the CD-L. We ALL make mistakes, we have ALL done stupid things in someone’s eyes, nothing you have done has screwed your horse up, he’s just not comfortable pulling the weight yet. Either from discomfort or insecurities, BOTH of which you can fix! So fix it! No more pity parties! This is easy! This is fun! Do it!

[Chewbacca]

Butler, that’s great that you trained your horse so well with the resources you had. I was trying to do the same, and thought I could do it. Obviously, if you taught your horse to pull, and I can’t teach mine, you did it right and I’ve not.

I’ve ruined too many horses in the past, thought maybe driving could be a good outlet for me. I’ve blindly continued on doing things incorrectly and thinking I was doing it right and ended up having it completely backfire on me to the point of souring horses. I’m very hyper-sensitive now about doing things wrong and it seems to me that if I was doing everything right, the horse would be OK pulling. I can see the issues with the harness, but I’m also not sure getting a new harness will correct any problems especially since I probably haven’t trained him right in the first place.

I’m sure in a few months, I’ll be able to afford a trainer and can just have him re-trained properly then like I should have done the first time around.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

you’ve hitched him 3 times and he’s not quite pulling the way you want him to and you call that failure?

yet in the 3 times there have been no blow ups, he stands quietly to be hitched, walks with a person leading him, and stands there alone while hitched… Talk about AWESOME!

I dont know how you can see one minor problem as a failure when he’s only had 3 chances to learn. You know it’s taken my cob mare 4.5yrs to learn how to canter under saddle? No joke. 4.5 YEARS. Granted, cob’s arent known for their canters, but still, that’s quite a large learning curve… I can proudly say she now canters at the nice young age of SEVEN, and for the most part gets the right lead, though might still swap the hind leads now and then. And yet, I’M THRILLED! For one, i finally got it by myself, all that hard work did eventually pay off! And two, that i stuck with it, i knew it was in her to actually canter and not have a hand gallop from hell, i just knew i had to wait for her to finally figure out her balance to do it. That sadly took 4.5yrs. And if you look on the dressage forum and find my old posts, you’ll see i threw a few pity parties over it! But we kept on trying! Is she the dressage horse of my dreams? No, she might be if i really wanted to push it, but instead i got into driving and i love it more than i ever loved dressage!

While i’m all for sending horses to a trainer, i also dont think you are incapable. You guys already have a driving horse and you are experienced with him. You aren’t totally ignorant here. You have some kind of driving background going for you. Tons of people come here not knowing anything and get a screwed up horse they want to fix and train themselves to drive with the most horrid cart and harness you’ve ever seen… You’ve already got them beat by leaps and bounds. You already knew you didnt have the right harness, so dont feel bad getting feedback on the issues you already knew you had with it… So post on the CD-L that you are looking for a horse size harness and get pics of what people have for sale. Worst case scenario DO buy the pieces bit by bit. All the harness makers will sell you pieces and parts! Buy a shaped breastcollar now. It might cost you $200 right now, but as time goes on, you can add to that and get the harness you really want and it’s like making payments. I dont think your saddle is wrong, i think you need to play with making it looser and play with the tug straps to get them to stay more centered on the saddle skirts. You can work with the rest of the harness, just get a new breastcollar for now.

If you feel more comfortable waiting for a trainer, then fine, but i still see absolutely nothing wrong training wise that you’ve done with your horse thus far. He’s doing great.

[goodhors]

GOODNESS, no one SAID you did things badly! Just that you should try a harness change, see if it helps horse backing off from weight!

This is why I suggested the tires, it helps horse learn to go into weight. If he handles a car tire fine, maybe move up to a big pickup truck tire, to accustom him to more drag and weight. In the photos he looks fair sized, so eventually moving on to dragging two tires is not impossible work for him.

In real life, especially with ridden horses, handling is designed to get horse moving AWAY from pressure. He is NOT allowed to push back when given leg pressure, lead rope on the halter pull, rein signals, backs up from a finger push in the stall!

In Driving we WANT him to move INTO pressure, which goes against all his conditioning. We have to TEACH him that he can manage pressure, weight on his breastcollar is NOT going to hurt or get him punished. New driving horses ARE often tenative at moving into pressure with a breastcollar, cart weight behind. They have to be taught to be “brave” and make the effort to go forward as asked. You the trainer, start with small loads, single person in the cart. Horse is SUCCESSFUL in moving you and cart, gets comfortable and then you add a bit more weight to the cart. Horse CAN FEEL the added (25 to 50 pounds) weight, now has to learn to manage “all the extra load” he feels. So you again work him with extra weight, go about using all your gaits, turns, halts, over a bit of time. He gets accustomed again, comfortable, and then you add weight again.

You make sure additions are small, he is NOT ALLOWED to fail at what you ask. So he learns to TRY when you ask him because you have never hurt him when you asked this extra effort. This all takes a while, as he puts on miles with the cart. Think how you would feel if you normally carried a 10lb. purse, and then one day you MUST carry a 100lb. purse! Big change, would take a lot of effort to manage with such a sudden change in amount to manage. Same for the new driving horse, has to learn to manage his load behind, be brave.

I SURE would not quit working with my new project of driving him! You ALREADY have had him hitched and going. So you back up and do tires, it is NO BIG DEAL. Review of his ground work basics, adding a step you didn’t know about is FINE. Horse seems quite sensible, has managed WELL with all the other stuff you asked of him. We do reviews if we don’t have enough time to hitch and drive, horse doesn’t care if it was beginner stuff, he can always be polished up a bit doing this.

Ours have done the tires, makes them think carriages are EASY to move! After the light cart like in your photos, they move on up to 4-wheelers that are weighty. STILL have to keep pulling what is attached behind.

It takes a long time to build a well-trained horse for driving, it doesn’t happen in 60 days or even in 6 months if you can’t work him often, KNOWING how to train a Driving horse.

Yours doesn’t sound “sour or ruined” because he is STILL cooperating with you and handler friends. He might be a bit confused at this stage, but not a throwaway for driving.

[Chewbacca]

Well, I think it’s more than just an uncomfortable breast collar. and both of you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the horse being comfortable and not in pain, and about not wanting him to end up soured because he’s having a painful time pulling.

Our ponies both have similar harnesses and pull almost equal to their own weights with them and have never resisted or shown discomfort. Of course, they are both broke to drive.

Chewie is being asked to pull less than half his weight and really will not do it. I think there’s more to it than an ill fitted breast collar. He’s a green horse and I’m a green… trainer (not that I’m saying I am a trainer, just trying to teach him to drive). It’s not a good combo and I don’t want to hurt him or sour him.

I said from the start I should send him to a trainer, but then my husband convinced me to see how far I could get on my own and for once in my life have something to be proud of that I trained a horse to do something constructive. I simply took it as far as I can, and need a trainer. If I end up not able to afford a trainer, I’ll simply sell the vehicle and hang up the halter, so to speak. And Chewie can be a pet. Either way, it’s fine, really.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

You know what, i wrote out a big long reply here but decided it’s not worth banging my head against a wall over it.

So my question, are you going to buy a new harness before you send him to a trainer? Cause you already know and admitted yours is cheap ebay junk… If you are going to get a new harness, at least try the proper breast collar for Chewies body type before sending him. You could save yourself some money when you find out if it’s a discomfort issue and not even need a trainer.

Not all horses and ponies can wear the same equipment happily, this doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out. They are all built differently, not to mention some have a high pain tolerance, some are wimps. So if your ponies are “happily pulling” it’s either because their breastcollar fits, or they dont care if it doesnt. Chewie may simply be trying to tell you OUCH in a polite way which has NOTHING to do with you or your training methods.

[Chewbacca]

OH Butler, don’t bash your head. Trust me, it’s not worth it. I’ve been stressed to tears plenty for myself, so I can do all my own head bashing.

I am merely saying that I am not convinced the problem is only limited to a BC fit issue. I believe it’s more of a “me as a trainer” problem, and given my past history with horses and explosions and souring and all the problems that have forced me into hunter & dressage exile, I am probably the most terrified horse person you’ll ever meet on a forum. I’m terrified of souring my horse, I’m terrified of screwing up,and I’m terrified that I have done so much wrong with his training I’m off on the wrong foot.

Since I never trained a horse to drive before, I thought it was something I could do successfully, but how can I possibly know I’m on the right track or not when I have a horse that will not push. I just think there’s more to the root of the problem than a breast collar.

Last night I harnessed him up and made adjustments to the position of the saddle as MunchingonHay mentioned. I adjusted the breast collar height and the traces to get them a little less slack. I also raised the shaft loops a little to get the shafts to sit a little higher.

I walked him about with the empty cart and he seemed to do OK with that - on the driveway. He pushes OK on the driveway. Then my husband got in the vehicle.

The cart weighs #320 and my husband is #330, so all together, Chewie had #650 pounds of weight and he pushed it OK. I could really see him working into the breast collar. He really pushed off and walked up and down the little stretch of driveway we use (it’s only about 50 feet or maybe 60). He did fine with that, and turned OK. It was just a test to see how everything sat and worked out, and I think it was a good idea to get my husband in the cart. I stepped away from Chewie’s head and my husband was steering him and Chewie was pushing.

In the arena, however, he just won’t push at all. We didn’t go in the arena last night. I had just done touch up paint work on the vehicle and was just trying to adjust and evaluate.

Anyway… I think where I am at right now, is… I have no idea if I’m on the right or wrong track. I don’t think the issue is simply limited to just a breast collar (or I’d buy the proper one in a minute), I just want to evaluate the whole picture and get to the root of the problem to make sure I don’t screw up Chewie’s training and that he learns to be a successful driving horse.

Right now, I’ve got messages in to 2 trainers that are anywhere close to me, to see if I can get either of them to come to my farm and do an evaluation before I take the next step. Whether that’s to buy a better harness, or send him to the trainer, or just throw in the towel, I’m not sure at this point.

I just need more help. But I appreciate everyone’s insights into this problem. It’s been very helpful. And please don’t bash your head over me. You think I’m nuts on a forum, try being my husband and having to live with this day in and day out.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

If he’s pulling on the driveway, then he’s not sure of the resistance being caused by the wheels digging in on a softer surface. It’s much harder to get it rolling initially on soft footing than it is on a harder surface. And if you dont believe that, try pulling it yourself so you feel the difference. When starting the cart rolling on a harder surface, you might only have to lean into 100lbs of pressure before it starts to easily roll a split second later. But in an arena where the wheels are going to dig in, you have to lay into all 600lbs of it and keep doing that for 3-4 strides before it starts to pick up a good roll at the speed you want to maintain, and then continue to push into considerably more weight than you would if on a harder surface that lets the cart roll like it’s on ice with no resistance to prohibit forward momentum.

I was at a carriage auction last year. I watched 4 guys push the big vis a vis wedding carriages into the building through the deep gravel driveway… And a 10yr old girl pull them on the concrete to the auction area… Barefoot no less…

And yes, sometimes it absolutely can be something so small as a fit/comfort issue. I’ve been around dressage horses and poorly fitting saddles long enough to tell you that… Heck, i had a dressage mare that would shake her head violently if her bridle wasnt super nicely padded!!! And here i thought it was me, the bit, the trainer, i had no idea… Finally on a whim and seeing it on sale at the tack store, i bought her a chunky padded bridle with the padded crank chin with the comfort padded crown and poof… No more head shaking!!! My cob mare will not even walk 2 steps if a saddle does not fit her perfect. Not.joking.one.bit. She will flatten her ears and plant her feet. Talk about a fitting nightmare. She has no pain tolerance when it comes to her back.

I think all of us here will tell you from reading your blog and from seeing what you’ve posted, you have done nothing wrong. Your horse IS on the right track. So i’m still leaning towards, this is truly a fit/comfort issue, and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to look at how that breast collar wants to fit him to agree with that. Has nothing to do with you.

The only true ways you can sour a horse. Abuse. Equipment fit. Pushing it too fast. But even pushing it too fast, you can back up to the basics and fix that horse. The horse that has been abused, or had bad fitting equipment will remember pain pain pain and is very difficult to get him over that thought pattern. I dont see an abused horse, i really dont see that you’ve pushed him too fast, though it might help you to pull a tire a few times to get him used to more weight and drag, but i didnt with my cob mare… Shame on me… I have used her to pull a lawn mower out of the ditch, does that count? I guess that was after she was already driving… lol

NO ONE should expect their horse to be perfect after 3 tries. Period. Not the best trainer in the world would expect that.

[MunchingonHay]

I am going to echo Butler’s first paragraph. She took the words right out of my mouth.

I would also like to ask this, how long are you “working” chewie? from start to finish not including tacking/grooming.

I only ask this because some horses are very smart and when they are worked for 15 mins at a time and then you hit that 16-17 min mark, they say, “Oh, hey, we are done here, time to stop”. Could that be the issue?

When you go and see the trainer, be weary that they are telling you want you want to hear. Be weary that they tell you they will not work with your horse unless you get all new equipment. Yes, you do need a better fitting collar, but honestly, everything else looks do able.

I am glad to hear you readjusted the saddle/backpad. when you looked at the “lines” how did it look? are there pictures on the blog?

You also mentioned in the more recent post that you adjusted the traces to pick up the slack. The horse should be pushing in to the collar right? which means the traces should have always been engaged. When you brought up the BC did the traces become slacked after that?

The tugs are not used to pull the cart. I am only mentioning this just as a safe guard.

Do not throw in the towel. The little bump in the road is just that a little bump.

Goodhors has some awesome points that need to be addressed too. I really like the line where she states, “The horse needs to be SUCCESSFUL”
You as his trainer/driver/partner needs to be confident.

Chewie feels down the lines when you doubt yourself, and in turn HE is going to doubt himself.

I like the saying, “fake it till you make it”. if you need to ‘fake’ some confidence than do it. Talk out loud about how great he is doing, encourage him and in turn BOTH of you will benefit from the encouraging words.

[Chewbacca]

I do tend to keep my lessons short and try to stay productive, but I don’t limit it to just 15 minutes. I try to only do 15, but there’s been plenty of times we’ve done 45 on the ground lines when I have more to work on. Chewie doesn’t throw a tantrum when he thinks he should be done. He’s not that kind of horse. He’s also the kind that is willing and sweet and will try hard, even if I’m screwing up. If you watch my YouTube vids of me jumping, you’ll know exactly what I mean. LoL.

In the arena, yes the footing is softer. But it’s been dry enough out that the wheels aren’t leaving ruts in the sand. We usually don’t work the horses in the arena when the wheels sink, we just stick to roads, but when it’s dry, the wheels roll right along the surface and do not dig in, so that isn’t the problem with Chewie.

I surely don’t expect perfection after 3 times. Not in the least. But I also do think that because he cannot seem to walk 1 lap with a header and driver, around the dry, sink-free arena, then there’s a problem.

I too am well aware of poor fit, pain, resistance problems, and I have blindly gone on, blissfully unaware that there was a problem thinking all was right with the world, until my horses exploded on me and I couldn’t get near them again, let alone ride. I don’t want the same thing to happen here.

I sure would love it if I knew someone with a better harness, so I could just borrow it to see if it makes a difference before I buy the Comfy Fit one I want for Chewie. Or, if he does need a full collar, again, I wish I could sort of “try before I buy” so I can see what the heck I need for him to fix my issues.

Hoping a trainer will help with that. I am very wary of trainers now, after my riding disasters, believe me. So I will expect to be told I need a new BC at the least, but I’ll listen for “red flags” from the trainer, if they ever return my calls…

I would really hope maybe I can get a trainer to bring a better BC with so I can try just one time and see if it helps.

And Munching, yes, when I moved the saddle back, everything stayed straighter, although the shaft loops still slid back off the skirt. When I raised the height of the BC one hole, it seemed to sit pretty well just under the base of the windpipe, although it still seems a little high to me… like it’s either too high or too low. When I raised it, the traces I noticed had some slack, so I tightened them and then I raised the hieght of the shaft loops too. Just a few minor adjustments to see if it made a difference.

Husband thinks I should try driving in the arena this weekend if it stays dry, but I think I should give Chewie the weekend off and not really try any driving until after I’ve talked to a trainer.

So we’ll see.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

@Chewbacca;5604202

In the arena, yes the footing is softer. But it’s been dry enough out that the wheels aren’t leaving ruts in the sand. We usually don’t work the horses in the arena when the wheels sink, we just stick to roads, but when it’s dry, the wheels roll right along the surface and do not dig in, so that isn’t the problem with Chewie.

If you believe this, go back and look at your pictures. there are wheel tracks in all of them, looking to be about an inch to an inch and a half deep. This causes a LOT more drag than you think.

I was at a boarding facility for a couple months that had sand trails. Even with my pneumatic wheels at the time, i had to get off and push the back of my 80lb easy entry cart to help my pony up a slight hill. If it got deeper that my pneumatics would actually sink in more than an inch, i had to get off and push through those if it was FLAT. It takes a FIT horse to pull 600lbs through sand with wheels sinking in even an inch.

Let alone one with breast collar fit issues.

[MunchingonHay]

[QUOTE=Chewbacca;5604202]
I do tend to keep my lessons short and try to stay productive, but I don’t limit it to just 15 minutes. I try to only do 15, but there’s been plenty of times we’ve done 45 on the ground lines when I have more to work on. Chewie doesn’t throw a tantrum when he thinks he should be done. He’s not that kind of horse. He’s also the kind that is willing and sweet and will try hard, even if I’m screwing up

Good to know that he is a ‘trier’ I am just trying to eliminate possible issues since we are not there with you.

Regarding trying before you buy for harness, it would be wonderful if we did have that kind system like saddle at a tack shop.
I am sure some private sellers would allow it but again, it would have to be someone local. I am out here on the east coast all the way down in fl. so I am really no help when it comes to tack.

[goodhors]

As a point of interest, does the harness saddle have a tree in it? This means the saddle won’t bend if you push on both sides while holding it. There is a space above the spine of the horse, like the space between sides of padding on an English saddle, when he is harnessed.

I am asking because a treeless saddle pad is not designed for use with 2-wheel carts. Treeless is a relatively recent design from the Amish, used with 4-wheel vehicles that have no weight on the horse back. They don’t have the added expense of tree, plus saves time putting the extra work into harness. Cutting corners. MANY of the inexpensive harnesses will have no tree in the saddle.

Without a tree in the saddle, the horse carries ALL the shaft weight, often lots of the passenger weight if cart is not “sort of” balanced. Even a well balanced cart will put great shaft weight on the saddle as passengers enter, leave, lean forward or move around. Weight directly on the spine can be QUITE uncomfortable to the horse, his body is not designed to take weight on the bones and vertabrae.

You learn this is incorrect by OWNING such a harness and having a clinician point out the problem to you! Lovely, patient horse indicated no issue, but was BETTER in a saddle with a tree. We sold the almost-new, heavy, thick leather, Amish made harness on.

We bought a great Smuckers harness that had the features we wanted after learning the fitting issues involved for the horse. Clinician did us a huge favor that day. Told all of us WHY the buggy harness was a poor choice, reasons for getting wider saddle with tree, wider, shaped breastcollar, advantages of buckle-in traces, need for a false martingale, buckle caveson instead of just a half-noseband. I consider that clinic some of the best money we ever spent. Saved us making MANY other mistakes later on.