Training a Green Driving Horse

[Chewbacca]

I do belive the saddle has a tree in it. It certainly does not bend.

Anyway, right now I am not continuing further with Chewie until I get a trainer. I need both a trainer and a new harness, but I’m not sure which to get first, and can barely afford either. I have a trainer coming out for an “evaluation session” soon. She feels, as most have said here, the horse is either uncomfortable due to the BC or just not sure about pulling the weight. She thinks he needs to do the tire dragging, as some have said here. She also said the bit I am using could be influencing issues.

I wouldn’t mind giving the tire dragging thing a go for the next month or so, but I am not sure what equipment changes I need before I do that. I don’t even know if the practice harness I’m using is appropriate for that and I don’t want to mess things up worse than I have.

So much for training my horse myself. Kudos to those of you that can actually do this.

[Chewbacca]

I’m back. Probably driving people crazy here, but I wanted to update on progress and ask for input.

Firstly, finding a driving trainer in my area has been such a hassle. OMG. Either they are insanely expensive or don’t return phone calls. Very disappointed that a supposedly good quality reputable trainer who came recommended to me from the local driving club has failed to return any calls at all. Trainer came out to barn to evaluate equipment and see Chewbacca work and determine about getting him started into a program. Everything seemed to be all laid down, with plans on putting him into trainer’s barn in July. Trainer was supposed to get back to me to set up a visit to barn and even a few lessons. Never did. :mad:

Well, anyway… found new trainer, and he is going to take on Chewbacca’s training, hopefully starting in the next week.

Problem 1: New harness with wider breast collar (yes, I can be taught) has not arrived yet. Trainer doesn’t think it’s a huge issue, but I’m wondering on your thoughts.

Problem 2: Can only afford to pay trainer for 4 weeks (with 5 days a week work). Trainer does not think he can get Chewbacca working on the cart in that time.

Suggestions?!

It’s not like I’m expecting Chewie to be road-driving safe and ready pleasure horse in 4 more weeks, but I was hoping he’d at least be pulling the cart forward by that point.

Is that jumping the gun too much? Obviously, I jumped the gun before by being lolled into a false sense of security thinking he was ready to pull when he wasn’t.

He is extremely easy to work with (and has been with the exception of the rearing incident), and so I guess in my mind he’s farther along that he really is.

I’m wondering what everyone’s thoughts are about where we are at now and what is realistic by the time those 4 weeks go by?

Right now, Chewbacca is pulling a wood 4x4 that’s 3 feet wide and 2 tires attached to it. It’s like a little train behind him. Until the trainer starts, I’ve been continuing right along working with him. I have not hitched him to the vehicle at all, nor do I feel I should.

I have not yet taken him out of the arena with the tires, but I plan to start doing that before the trainer comes. I’ve been working him 3-4 days a week and he will walk, trot, turn, pivot, do every form of serpetine, figure 8, and circle I can manage to concoct and make him do. He works comfortably and easily in everthing I ask him to do.

He is really (seems to me anyway) getting the idea of pressing forward and moving like he’s got somewhere to go. Stands for “hitching” to the tires no problem. Always has. And when I tell him walk on, he knows to GO! His voice commands seem to be improving by leaps and bounds. He is learning what “turn left and turn right” means, lol! Whoa, walk, trot all on voice. I have been using a driving whip to help as an aid when needed.

He is finally (seems to me anyway) working with his head down, extending his stride and working on the bit at walk and trot and changes of directions. Which I was told by trainer who never called back that he needed to learn. I was told by unnamed trainer that he needed to learn to move like he’s got places to go and people to see and carry his head down and rounded on the bit before he moves up to the next step.

Since I started this on March 25, he has had about 38 ground driving sessions, and so far, though, only 13 of them have been with tires in tow. I was thinking maybe I should try having him pull me on the sled, but then decided I should just wait and let the trainer handle getting him going. I did try sitting on the tires, and although it was hard for me to keep balanced and hold the driving lines, Chewbacca really gave it a good effort but did not pull.

So I think it almost seems no matter how much work I am trying to put into it, he just won’t pull when the weight is too much. He’s moving those tires & wood around with no problems, but the whole thing weighs all of maybe 60 pounds. I don’t think I can add enough tires to build the weight up to 300 to match the cart, lol!!

Are we on the right track at all with this? The trainer said he is going to drop Chewie back to round pen basics and move up from there and probably can’t get him working in shafts in the time frame I can afford to pay him.

Is this just a lost cause or what?

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I’m willing to bet any trainer will tell you its going to take at least 3 months to get them green to driving, and i would say that is realistic. Your trainer is most likely going to start from square one no matter how much work you’ve done with him. He’ll be looking for holes in the training. He’s not just going to take your word for it as to whats been done with the horse, you are having a problem, and he’s got to start the horse over to fix it. He’s not going to risk himself or the horse by starting where you’ve left off. He’s paid to make sure the horse is started right, and the only way he knows that is if he starts it again and verifies that all the steps are met. Your horse might sail through with flying colors and progress faster than the trainer expects from all the work you’ve done… Or he might not.

You cant ever peg a set time frame for a horse to learn something, they are all so different. I think we’ve all said it here, they might take to driving very naturally and be pulling in a few days, a week, a month, or be slower than snot and take months, and we all still see them as very green for a year or more of driving.

You are having him pull 60lbs of dead weight (tires) and he’s pulling that well. Great. I would hesitate to pull 300lbs of dead weight myself, especially if that dead weight is catching a lot of drag in a sandy arena. But a cart is going to roll eventually, he’s just got to get it started moving. If this were me, i would have kept my header leading him for weeks or months until he feels comfortable going forward on his own with the weight. Maybe being firmer with my go forward command, he has no choice but to GO. When you get one step, stop and praise the heck out of him, and keep building from that.

We all struggle with the price of training. It is almost always cheaper in driving to buy the trained driving horse than to send one to a trainer. Will this trainer let you bring your horse for lessons? Bring what you’ve been using and do the same thing there and keep training him yourself with just a lesson a week. Like you’ve said, the horse is a laid back, easy horse, he’s not going to kill you, he knows you and trusts you, you just need some help getting over this hurdle. You could probably do that with some lessons and not have to send him away for 4 weeks and feel you didnt get enough out of it.

[Chewbacca]

Thanks Butler.

Actually, this trainer (if he ever contacts me back- since he hasn’t and told me I’d hear from him by this past Friday :mad::mad::mad::mad:) is going to train my horse out of my barn with my equipment. He has his own farm and offers lessons with his own horses, but he does not have a training facility. He is only 10 minutes away, so he’s just going to come to me 5 days a week. Or so he says. With the unreliable communication so far, I am getting leery about how successful this arrangement is going to be. He also failed to contact me back 2 weeks ago when he told me I’d hear from him, and I ended up calling him.

Another trainer who also came recommended to me also failed to call me back after coming out to see Chewbacca.

I must have a sign on me that says “RUN AWAY” that I’m just not seeing. I feel a lot like I am running into the same problems with a driving trainer as I was with riding trainers. Just wanting to learn & improve and really not being able.

Grr…

Anywho… yes, most trainers have said it will take probably 3 months to train the horse. Maybe because I can only afford 1 is why people aren’t getting back to me? I don’t know, but I do feel that this is a point I should be up front about at the start.

As far as dragging the dead weight, I actually just added a 3rd tire, which is larger and bumped the weight up quite a bit. He pulled that great. No problems. I even sat on the big tire and he pulled me on it! LOL. Like pulling the cart, getting the weight moving isn’t much of a problem. Even with the cart, he’d heave-ho right into it on the first command and move the cart on. It’s continuing on that he’s not doing He was pulling me around with the tire, and just go 30-40 feet, stop, and that was pretty much it. No more forward. Had to get off the tire to get him moving on again.

Anyway. Finding a trainer that I can afford for 90 days is out of the question. Even the least costly trainers are not ones I can afford for 90 days, short of sending him to an Amish driver, but I’m not going to go that route, because I don’t want to send my horse 4 hours away for months and months, and I don’t know how to find one anyway.

Also, 99% of the time, I have NO help at all, which is why I’m not able to keep a header around to help me. Getting my husband to help is not easy, and he is not patient or cooperative when it comes to handling this green driving situation. I really do not have any other help, sides from the very occasional help I can get from some driving club members.

So I guess that pretty much at a dead end, doesn’t it? Can’t train him myself, having a heck of a lot of trouble confirming anything with a trainer so I can’t seem to nail down the help I need… hmmm… either this isn’t going to happen, or it’s going to take years!

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I thought before he was not wanting to pull the cart at all without a leader? That it was taking the weight initially that he wouldnt do? Once the cart starts rolling the weight will become considerably less than the dead weight he’s got to move that first few strides. Maybe he just thought everyone jumped shipped and left him so he stops?

If he’s pulling all the weight without issue but stops 30-40ft into it, then maybe you’ve made a habit of going however many feet and stopping to praise him and he thinks that few feet is all that is needed for this new job. If that’s the case you need to turn into Mrs Bad Mom and get the sucker to move. No different than if you were starting one under saddle and one doesnt want to go, there is NO OPTION BUT FORWARD. If that means a tap with the whip, consistent tapping with the whip, or full on popping him, then you need to do it. Some horses are too smart for their own good and know when they can get away with cheating, and who they can get away doing it to!

Personally, i’ve said this several times in this thread and really feel like a broken record… DO IT YOURSELF. 30 days with a trainer coming over doing ground work at your house is probably not going to yield the results you want, so pull your big girl panties on and just do it.

I never have help when driving, i have a 2yr old human kid running around to make it even more of a challenge! If i have a green moment going on, i have to out think my horse in a split second. I had my husband’s help the first few times hitching and a friend, but after that, it’s been all me. It’s scary sometimes, yes, and i dont recommend it, but if you want to get something done, sometimes you just have to do it yourself.

You have to grow some balls and be firm i think. BUT, i probably wouldnt do that until you have your new breast collar and know that he’s not in discomfort pulling all this weight.

Lost cause? No. But i think you need to start telling yourself and the horse, you both WILL do this. It’s not an option not to! If you keep asking every time, is this a lost cause, then that tells me every time you are out there working and the going gets rough, you start second guessing everything. A non-confident leader is going to make a non-confident horse, and he’s just throwing in the towel right along with you, and worse, he probably thinks that’s what he’s supposed to do now.

[buck22]

[QUOTE=Chewbacca;5671886]

Also, 99% of the time, I have NO help at all, which is why I’m not able to keep a header around to help me. Getting my husband to help is not easy, and he is not patient or cooperative when it comes to handling this green driving situation. I really do not have any other help, sides from the very occasional help I can get from some driving club members.

So I guess that pretty much at a dead end, doesn’t it? Can’t train him myself, having a heck of a lot of trouble confirming anything with a trainer so I can’t seem to nail down the help I need… hmmm… either this isn’t going to happen, or it’s going to take years![/QUOTE]

Well, I don’t have it near as rough as Butler, the added bonus of a 2 year old :lol: but I’m a beginner doing it 99% alone too, and, really… it can be done. But like Butler says you need to grow a pair :lol:

My added bonus is that I’m working with a horse that was a SOB for years as a riding horse, really had me quite frightened at times. But, again like Butler said, I pulled on my big girl panties and just went at it, and kept at it until things got sorted out.

When I do something scary, like go around the trails for the first time where my horse historically used to bolt, or use a new vehicle for the first time, or do spook training, etc., I do make sure to have a friend with me… just in case things go to heck. I show them the safety release points on my harness and explain to them what can go wrong and how to help us.

If I can’t get a friend, which is often, my old xc trainer comes occasionally to the farm to train others, so I hire her for an hour just to be an extra pair of hands. She has no driving background, but she’s horse savvy, I explain what I need and she helps me. Usually, just confidence of another person there while I try out new territory.

I do otherwise train, hitch and drive completely by myself. In fact I started this thread here as I have a new vehicle and I want to be the safest I can be.

I did finally have a driving knowledgeable friend come over yesterday which was a thrill. She pointed out some things I’m doing wrong (now that I’m in a 4wheeler and looking down at my horse, I can hold my reins better, I have to quit talking so much), and what I’m doing right (horse is obedient, patient and easy for a stranger to drive, harness and carriage fit well though still need some minor adjustments). And, she helped get me out of my comfort zone and onto the trails and was there to help me get through sticky spots like loose horses running, and fallen trees on the trail. She had a lot of fun running along side the carriage and then jumping on the back like a wild western movie:lol:

I sure wish I could get her out more often, but OTOH I was immensely proud when I saw how well trained and well behaved my horse was and I did it soup to nuts all on my own.

OP I’ve only barely skimmed the posts, so I apologize if I’m missing something but I’ll say this re trainers, it might be because its show season and they’re quite busy, it might be because they feel you need 90 and you can only afford 30, but what I would do in your shoes is talk to a trainer about having them out to train you train your horse, like a riding lesson. Have them come out 2-3x per month to oversee your training program and step in and help and correct when needed. Might be a real eye opener how firm you might need to be, or how you might be misunderstanding whats going on with your horse. It sounds like you’re doing better than you’re giving yourself credit for.

Re stopping, press your horse on, he probably doesn’t realize he needs to keep going especially since you ‘dismount’ your tire and then go head him. Just press him on and be firm about it until he goes. I made the same mistake with my horse, in the very beginning I was rewarding often, so he got used to slamming on the brakes. We have good trot to halt transitions, especially when backed up by the rustle of a cookie bag :lol: I often have to press my horse on when he’s looking to stop and get some reward. He’s a big boy now and can work harder and go longer.

It certainly may take some time, I’m at it for a solid year now with my own and we’re only just doing w/t on trails. I don’t expect to shake the ‘green as grass’ label for at least another year. We are moving at a snails pace… but thats ok. I don’t have a calendar with this horse, he is my hobby and entertainment, I don’t need to keep a schedule of any kind… I only need to stay safe and have fun.

Don’t beat yourself up. Get creative. Get brave and firm. Pat yourself on the back for having come this far, and roll up your sleeves to get ready to do the hard parts yet to come. If you can’t find someone to suit your resources, get creative and think up a new plan.

And have fun, don’t let this be a drag, enjoy it! You will look back one day and say ‘wow, I did this on my own’ you will be immensely proud. Stay safe!

[Chewbacca]

Butler, yes, the few times i tried hitching him to the cart, getting moving wasn’t the problem. Staying moving was. With or without a leader, it didn’t matter. He would stop and getting him to re-start was somewhat difficult. The final time, he reared. I still got him moving after that, but it was quite a bit scary because i was in the cart thinking I was going to die as it went vertical and his butt went under the shaft. lol.

He does the same thing with the tire, (with me on it) - without me on it, he pulls all day long. Zero problems. I jump on and he goes 40-50 feet, and stops. I do not encourage this, but when I’m sitting in the tire not far from his heels and in perfect- kick-in-the-head distance, I’m not about to start trying to utilize the whip in any way. So I get up, lighten the load, and he easily restarts.

At the point we are at today, I have really been wanting to hitch the cart to him and see what I get. I would be comfortable ground driving him with the vehicle. I’m fairly sure that even in an ugly situation, I could control him pretty easily. He’s been doing 130% well with empty tires, but like i said, with me sitting on the tire, that’s a different story. But I know that would have more drag than the cart, especially an empty cart. So half of me is thinking I should try to hitch him to the empty cart, maybe after working him with the tires, and try to get him to pull some laps, but then the other half of me thinks maybe he’s not yet ready, and I’m not really sure how to tell.

But then, I’m also thinking I should wait until the harness comes in, with the wider BC, which should only be 2 more weeks, so I figure why rush it, and just keep working with the tires. Whatch’all think? Oh, and I have a nice cooshy pad for the current BC coming in a few days, I figure that can’t hurt until the harness comes in.

At the rate I’m going with trainers, I think I will be doing this all myself! Lol. I’m glad I’m not the only one who is a newbie at training and doing it myself.

Oh, I keep my blog updated with our progress. Latest entry with pictures of the tire-train (literally) here:
http://www.kshai1715.wordpress.com

[jcotton]

Keep persisting on!
As far as the trainer situation: If they don’t contact you in the time frame they said, then you need to be pro-active to your situation. Doesn’t matter what discipline, they may have not written all the information down, then lost the information, had conflicts,…
In a safe large well fenced field, ground drive this horse out of the arena for a change of scenery, go over different types of terrain. I, personally, would have 1 large tire. And Do Not Ride On It. You need to be pro-active in walking behind your horse–preferable in the place you would when you are going to be sitting in your cart/carriage.
Learn how to correctly use the whip with your right hand on both sides of the horse at the shoulders and hips for their specific purposes. You can learn this by practicing with buckets as the shoulder & hips in perspective of where you would be sitting.

So when you are sitting on the tire, a dangerous postion to be in, he goes forward then stops at 40-50 ft, you get off and he starts again. He won! He got a break and you are teaching a very bad habit. This habit may take quite some time to undo.

The horse needs professionally training for a few months and you need to learn to how drive as well on a trained horse. not to mention a full harness that is properly fitted to this specific horse.

[Chewbacca]

Jcotton:

I see your points. Thank you for your input.

With the trainers- losing my information or anything like that is no excuse. I have called, emailed, and have never heard back.
And if I plan on paying someone a small fortune of money I barely have to work with my horse for a month, and then get nothing but excuses about how busy they are, so busy they can’t call me back, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me question how much of their time they would actually dedicate to my horse. I realize people are busy, and i’m trying to get training started in the middle of show season rather than waiting until winter, but a phone call or email shouldn’t be too much to ask. As a paying potential customer, I don’t think it’s Ok that I get thrown on the back burner until they get around to me. I just as well assume they’ll treat my horse the same way.

I do ground drive the out of the arena, but haven’t got a large fenced field, lol. I make do with what I have, and the driveway and the road off the farm work as a change of pace. I do, admittedly, spend most of the time in the arena, but will do some ground driving out and about after a good arena work out.

I am very concerned about teaching bad habits to the horse, with the stopping. I don’t always have the benefit of a second helper, though, so I just have to make do on my own most of the time. But, yes, I totally see your point on this.

I have some driving experience, with 2 others that are broke to drive. I’ve taught my husband to drive, compete, and I spend most of my time working the other 2. Been driving for 5 years. So it’s not like I have a ton of driving experience, but I do feel I know more than basics, although I’ve never actually shown in driving myself. I just spend most of the time doing trail & arena driving with the other 2.

Eagerly awaiting an upgraded harness, which should be in in about 2 more weeks (yay!) Hopefully that will help resolve some of the problem. If the pulling issue is being caused by an uncomfy spot on the BC or saddle, hoping that by getting the better harness, that will alleviate some of the issue. Hopefully. Keeping fingers crossed any way, though. LOL.

[Chewbacca]

What should I do now?

[IronwoodFarm]

Have his teeth checked. Much of what you describe sounds like a pain reaction. I have horses that needed floats twice a year.

[pegasusmom]

Just out of curiousity, where are you located?

Bullshit on quarterhorses not being driving horses. My trainer just finished up working with one who was driven single, as a pair and in a four.

Bitting is different on driving horses than riding horses, but it sounds like this is not the right solution for you or your horse.

[49_er]

Get him out of there. I made a mistake and sent a young horse to a hackney pony trainer. She will never be the horse she could have been. I too thought it is only for 1 month, but after 1 week I knew I should move her. But, I had paid my month and thought we will both survive. Dumb move on my part.

[Chewbacca]

His teeth were just floated June9. This is definitely not the issue. He has NEVER acted that way since I’ve owned him. Not for riding, driving, nothing. I’ve never seen him like that before. He has a very very very light mouth, and does not carry his head high normally. I can’t help but feel that the combination of the twist bit, running martingale, and possibly hard hands on the trainer’s part caused it. I really don’t know what caused it, but I really really really am very upset by this.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Move him out today. Find someone else. While i dont typically have a problem with saddlebred trainers, there are those out there that are all into the crank them in and put them into that frame from day one, and a lot of horses cant handle that, the saddlebreds are just kind souls that take the punishment and still give 150%.

So if QHs cant drive… Why do QH’s have driving classes at their shows? My previous driving experience was when i was 12, i learned how to drive a QH mare in a little jerald cart, one who had many ribbons with her little cart.

There are a lot of bad trainers in every discipline. Sounds like you might have just met one. So get him out and find a better one. I see no reason why this horse cant drive with all you’ve done with him thus far. He just needs to learn to go forward.

[Zwarte]

I can recommend an excellent trainer…

http://www.tocarroll.com/

[fivehorses]

Butterflyfarm said it nicer that I can.
For the most part, I am not a huge fan of most saddlebred trainers.

Been there done that. Get him out.

There are so many things you have said about the trainer that I don’t like.
First off, she is no fricking trainer if she hands him to you to see you fail. I mean come on, of course Chewy is going to give you a hard time, his trust in his human and this so called trainer has been breached.

I think I am so darn frustrated with how many crappy trainers there are out there.
I have to use two hands to count the bad trainers I have dealt with, and you know what, its all my fault, or the horses or whatever. Well, I won’t be sending them to a trainer if I thought I could do the job.

So, move him. Sit back and get to know each other.

There are really good trainers out there, but more bad imo.
Now, if the trainer so much as gives me any line, treats my horse in any way that instills fear, guess what, we are gone.

I have had horses trained properly, and you know what, never was there fear.

I don’t know where you are, but I bet we could find you a decent trainer close enough to you.
Please move him. I did what 49er did, and it took years to get my appendix quarter horse to trust me again.

If the trainer is worth her salt, she will refund you the money.
Explain that you don’t think it is working out, she is right, a quarter horse can’t or shouldn’t be trained to drive(not) and probably better and safer for all to leave.
If she doesn’t give you your money back, personally, I’d take her to small claims.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Its very victimizing…you are in a vulnerable postition, and this so called trainer abuses you and your horse. So very wrong.
As I said, been there done that, so it just brings this emotion all back.
Take care.

[gothedistance]

What a shame.

Agree with everyone else - take him home. Today.

Now, I’m going to say something that perhaps you already know in the back of your heart, and maybe others will disagree, but here goes: this horse may not be cut out as a driving horse. Personally, from all you’ve mentioned, I suspect he’s a jibber. The stopping and not starting again unless pulled forward (not once but consistently every. single.time) was the first clue. A BIG clue in my book.

The second was the rearing. That’s your sign. HEED IT!!!

The fight at the trainers was merely icing on that cake. He’s trying to tell you something, and that something is: “I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to pull things. Period. End of sentence. Stop trying. Now.” He’s not going to change. Once a jibber, always a jibber.

If he’s a nice riding horse, and you can use him for that, then set a career path for him under saddle. Not in harness.

[fivehorses]

gothedistance, you may be right, you may be wrong.

Until the OP can find a good trainer, I am afraid we won’t know.

I think at this point, its not whether the horse is able to drive or not, but the fact she has the horse at what seems like a very wrong fit.

I have been thinking about this all day. It conjures up memories for me of feeling hopeless getting a decent trainer and meanwhile my horses get to be puffs.

I think the OP is rightly discouraged, has limited funds, and when you get desparate you sometimes make choices that are not well thought out. I think placing him at this facility is one of the desperate choices to ‘get him trained’.

Let us know where you are, so we could seek out a better trainer for you.

Also, I will mention Doris Ganton’s book as well as Clay Maier’s videos on long lining and driving.
I feel for you OP, hope you had an ok day.

[sdlbredfan]

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;5684038]
Move him out today. Find someone else. While i dont typically have a problem with saddlebred trainers, there are those out there that are all into the crank them in and put them into that frame from day one, and a lot of horses cant handle that, the saddlebreds are just kind souls that take the punishment and still give 150%.

So if QHs cant drive… Why do QH’s have driving classes at their shows? My previous driving experience was when i was 12, i learned how to drive a QH mare in a little jerald cart, one who had many ribbons with her little cart.

There are a lot of bad trainers in every discipline. Sounds like you might have just met one. So get him out and find a better one. I see no reason why this horse cant drive with all you’ve done with him thus far. He just needs to learn to go forward.[/QUOTE]

This, get him out of there yesterday and try to get your money back. Trainer is obviously incompetent.