Training a Green Driving Horse

[Chewbacca]

For those who asked, I am in northeastern Illinois, about 20 minutes south of the Wisconsin border.

I am just going to let him chill out for a few days and be a horse and continue delving on with him later this week. I had him dragging 3 tires really really really well, and I hope he takes right back to doing so. I only ran into pulling trouble when I sat on the tire, but given the sinking/drag factor, I kind of can’t blame him. He was pulling 3 tires (at a trot, even!) while changing directions, circling, serpetining, and everything else I could do with him - and out of the arena, too! I don’t know how that could be considered not steering?

Maybe I’m just being bull headed and ignorant on that part, but if you tell the horse to trot to the right and he trots to the right (and carries a frame, mind you), how is that not working?

Anyway, I’m going to plug away with where I was before his 3 days of hell, lol. And then, With the new harness and wider breast collar, I’m going to give the cart a new try and see where we get.

And GotheDistance - the whole reason I’m trying to get my horse trained to drive is because I can’t/don’t/won’t ride anymore. Pick one, because they’re all applicable. Too many problems with riding to go into. He needs to either learn to drive, or become a horse pet… Or I need to give a long hard thought about selling him and buying a pre-broke horse. Not an option I really want to get into.

[China_Doll]

I am just here to chime in and glanced over this post. I don’t know how old your horse is but teeth floated in june of 09 is a LONG time ago. I do mine yearly and if they are young it may need done more often if they are in training. I can think of many qualified trainers fairly close to you. John Frieberger and Wes Lick. I also know someone in eastern Iowa. Most people will not take a horse for 30 days because they are just getting a foundation. They do not want people to think they trained the horse to drive while realistically they did not get a finish on the horse.

I also think you should drag an empty tire and then have someone sit in it and see how hard that is too pull.

If you are interested in sending your horse to Eastern Iowa for CDE or pleasure type driving with a firm but bgentle hand. I can get you some info, training blogs, photo’s, show you my horse that has been home schooled with the help of an instructor and such and a reasonable rate. If this interest you please pm me.

[Chewbacca]

Uhh… that’s June 9, 2011. LOL.

The horse is 12. My horses get their teeth done every year

I also think you should drag an empty tire and then have someone sit in it and see how hard that is too pull.

-this I completely agree with you on. It’s hard enough for me to pull the empty ones. I can definitely recognize how hard it is to pull one with someone sitting on it!

I really don’t think this is going to end up happening, ultimately, with getting him to drive. At this point, though, I am not interested in sending him anywhere for training.

[China_Doll]

I think you are more competant than you give yourself credit for. Take the horse home and do what you have been doing and don’t try and make him drag heavy stuff through the arena. That is where it went down hill. They don’t need to get down and grunt like a draft horse. I would get him more used to noise behind him than the heaviness. If he is reactive you may need to start at square 1 to build his confidence back. If I read everything correctly he didn’t have issues until you over loaded him. And yes you need to use your whip while driving

[Chewbacca]

If I read everything correctly he didn’t have issues until you over loaded him.

yeah… this is more or less true. If you consider an empty meadowbrook cart overload. LOL

[gothedistance]

And GotheDistance - the whole reason I’m trying to get my horse trained to drive is because I can’t/don’t/won’t ride anymore. Pick one, because they’re all applicable. Too many problems with riding to go into. He needs to either learn to drive, or become a horse pet… Or I need to give a long hard thought about selling him and buying a pre-broke horse. Not an option I really want to get into.

I understand. That’s OK - you don’t have to explain.

You seem to really like this horse, but with everything you’ve posted – well, I personally would just cut my losses because there are way, way, WAY too many red flags. No matter how “nice” some horses are, that doesn’t mean they want or will: drive/jump/rope/cut/do dressage/do endurance/etc. Not every “nice” horse can be everything you want just because they are nice.

You just need to be smart enough to know when you want to stop failing, and find one happy to do the job you want.

If I read everything correctly he didn’t have issues until you over loaded him.

yeah… this is more or less true. If you consider an empty meadowbrook cart overload. LOL

:no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

[butlerfamilyzoo]

BUT goesthedistance… She’s also had poor fitting ebay equipment from day one. A breast collar that is much too narrow, and a horse with a neck that ties in low and no where for the breast collar to go but on the point of his shoulder or on his windpipe, and was then asked to pull the cart through a sand arena, and has continued pulling the tires with this same equipment.

So to ME, all along it’s been an uncomfortable horse and an owner that isnt being firm enough. Now the problems caused by both issues is that he doesnt want to go forward…

I dont see a reason to call it quits with the horse. If i sat on a saddle that hurt my horses back and he started planting his feet and not wanting to move, i wouldnt stop riding my horse, i would get it equipment that fit and try try again…

Why the horse blew up at the trainer… A too small twisted wire bit, being stuck in a stall without turnout a few days, maybe a change in feed, change in surroundings, total moron of a trainer, or just a total personality clash between trainer and horse… He’s never blown up at home from reading what he’s done and seeing the pics on her blog.

While i’m a firm believer that you shouldnt push a horse into doing a discipline it’s not suited for or hates… I dont really see that that is the case here. I see a horse that probably started out a little uncomfortable and when he stopped about it, he pulled the wool over his owners eyes and got away with it. So he now fully knows he doesnt have to do squat when he decides he’s done.

Some horses will take discomfort and even pain and keep on giving 150%, others wont.

What i REALLY want the OP to do. Go find the CDE trainers, not the breed ring trainers, and get some lessons. Yes she knows “how” to drive with their other ponies, but i want her to get some GOOD no nonsense training in more than just round and round the ring we go. Keep her horse at home, bring the knowledge she learns home with her, get a better harness, and start over.

If that’s too much money for the OP to invest in a horse that may or may not cut it, then sell the QH and get a broke driving horse, with a harness that fits it properly and start having fun now. No more stress or worry about what she may or may not be doing wrong.

[gothedistance]

If that’s too much money for the OP to invest in a horse that may or may not cut it, then sell the QH and get a broke driving horse, with a harness that fits it properly and start having fun now. No more stress or worry about what she may or may not be doing wrong.

Yup. This is what I’m trying to convey. Cut the losses and get something that is trained and ready to go.

She doesn’t have the money to pursue getting this horse trained beyond a certain number of days, he already has some “problems” that stand out to me (although not to her as a problem), and his extreme reaction to everything is more than just an equipment issue. I don’t think changing the equipment is the answer - I think it is the horse itself. He’s jibbing. Pure and simple.

Way back when the world used to use horses, this problem was well known, and like a lemon car, the jibber was passed from owner to unsuspecting owner. Usually a horse with this problem appeared to be a calm, relaxed animal – until it was asked to do something it really didn’t feel capable of doing: pulling a cart/carriage/vehicle. Then it went into Mr. Hyde mode and the fight was on. And a jibber never gives up.

Tom Ryder had a very enlightening story of being hoodwinked into trading a good, albeit old, vanner for a pony that turned out to be a jibber. His tale of ownership of this pony was rather funny and quite a lesson. Even with his Uncle Jack to help him, he could barely make headway with this animal. He finally, after all kinds of trials and months of work, got it to pull a very lightweight cart at a walk, and as soon as he could - he dumped the pony on another unsuspecting buyer.

This was the great Tom Rider.

Even he knew a helpless cause when he saw one.

I had the opportunity to see a true jibber in action once. The owner was clueless about why this horse refused to pull a (nice light 4 wheel) carriage in a sand ring after a few paces forward, and this horse’s reactions were a carbon copy of the OP’s horse. The harness looked perfectly suited to the job, but several of us recognized the classic stance of the jibber and told her to get out of the carriage and get the horse moving forward by hand. Long story short - the owner, embarrassed by the refusal of the horse to move forward, tried to get him moving forward with a very light tap of the whip, and then another, a bit stronger. She seemed very tentative about using the whip, and warning bells started to jangle in my head. I suspected she knew she would invoke something bad to happen. Well, it did. The horse suddenly reared, leaped high into the air in a plunge forward, then slammed to a halt. The driver went over the dashboard head first and got hung upside down, her head next to the horse’s heels with the lower half her body hooked above on the singletree and the shafts.

Thank all the gods there were enough of us carriage folks there watching. Within a microsecond 3 people raced to hold the horse’s head (although that creature was not inclined to move even an inch, but its face was wide, alarmed and close to freaked). Two others raced to unharnessed it super fast. We got the driver untangled, and then told her to call it a day. She was pretty scraped up, and mentally banged up as well. I don’t remember seeing her after that.

I remember several very knowledgeable people there being very critical of her inability to see the problem. But…what can you say? A lot of people seem to think that a horse should be able to do anything we ask, and driving seems to be “so easy to do”.

It isn’t always the harness, equipment, training, lack thereof, etc. Sometimes, it really is just the horse. Which is probably why all these trainers took one look at the horse, and decided to not return phone calls, etc. Including the one recommended by the local driving club. These trainers should just ante up and tell her the real reason why they don’t want to deal with the horse.

JMHO. Life is too short.

[China_Doll]

Goodhors --I haven’t had him pull a tire, but he has pulled a sled with me on it. He pushes into the BC fine with that. He simply will not push into the BC with weight of 300 or more pounds, and I can see how resistant he is.

It says here he is pulling fine until he gets 300 or more pounds. That is where I got the impfression he was ok until he was overloaded. On a hard surface 300 pds might not bother him but I just assumed this was in your arena

[China_Doll]

@Chewbacca;5601541

Butler, that’s great that you trained your horse so well with the resources you had. I was trying to do the same, and thought I could do it. Obviously, if you taught your horse to pull, and I can’t teach mine, you did it right and I’ve not.

I’ve ruined too many horses in the past, thought maybe driving could be a good outlet for me. I’ve blindly continued on doing things incorrectly and thinking I was doing it right and ended up having it completely backfire on me to the point of souring horses. I’m very hyper-sensitive now about doing things wrong and it seems to me that if I was doing everything right, the horse would be OK pulling. I can see the issues with the harness, but I’m also not sure getting a new harness will correct any problems especially since I probably haven’t trained him right in the first place.

This is a very important post. I have never heard any one say that they have soured and ruined many horse in the past. Is thyere something in the relaltionship that you are not reading your horses signals and warnings when maybe something is not right?

[China_Doll]

I have looked back through your blog and you said he got more annoyed when you layed on the tire. He went 20 feet and stopped. Each time he got more annoyed and then you thought you would try it again. Why do you want to annoy him? He is telling you that what you are asking isn’t reasonable. That will sour a horse

[fivehorses]

all good posts.
I missed the post on souring a horse.
Chewie sounds like a great horse, and please don’t ruin him.

Butlerfamily said some good things…find thee a good cde trainer or two. interview, interview.
Any trainer that trains on fear, be done with them.

I have drafts(and lights and ponies too!), and I was told many years ago to never ask the drafts to pull a challenging load early on. they need to build into it. If you ask them to pull more weigh too early, you sour them.

I think laying on a tire is way too much.

Have you read or watched Doris Ganton’s video or book?

If you have soured horses, I guess I am wondering why on earth you would be training a horse to drive by yourself.

Seriously, Chewie sounds like he is or could be a good driving horse, but you need help in his training…nothing wrong with that.

For those who say, get a made driving horse. Sorry, don’t agree. I think if you can’t read signals, you will just sour them too.
You need a good, sensitive, caring trainer to help you and chewie.
good luck.

[Chewbacca]

Welp… I see everyone’s points. I really do. I’m not trying to annoy/hurt/piss off/ or any combination Chewie, and no I have never had a problem with him “exploding”. Just not wanting to go forward. He did rear once - in resistance to going forward. But, at the time he reared, he had been hitched the vehicle 5 times, and had only pulled me on the sled twice. I jumped the gun.

He has now had 8 weeks of tire pulling. Yes, he won’t go forward when I tried to sit on the tire, but you have to take into account my weight in combo with the sand/drag factor, and also the harness points which have been discussed. When I tried sitting in the tire (which I actually only did twice), he pulls, stops, and although he tries to restart, he just doesn’t. He tries and tries, but there’s just no forward. It’s kind of like a shuffle sideways and a hearty heave forward, and then ultimately, calmly walking backwards. Could possibly be a discomfort issue with the BC as opposed to resistance/unwillingness. He really tries to go forward, but just doesn’t.

I am hopeful, although not terribly confident that the new harness, with wider, curved BC will help resolve some of the problems, but no, I certainly don’t expect a full resolution based solely on the harness change only. I am also hopeful that since the cart rolls and the tires drag, I may see better luck.

Would love to find a CDE trainer. Haven’t found one yet that I can afford. LOL. Or that’s close by. At this point, I am not willing to send Chewie off anywhere for any training by anyone. Period.

As far as souring horses that I’ve done in the past- that has all always only ever been with riding, which is why I don’t & won’t ride anymore. Never soured anything that drives (at least not yet…).

I have numerous omens to give up horses all together. Like the souring of my riding horses over the last 7 years, and now the problems with getting Chew to drive, and oh, the blow out of my tire on the horse trailer while Chewie was loaded. Yep. Awesome f***ing that was.

I love horses, always have. And I’m not (at least not at this point) quite yet ready to totally throw in the towel. I can live with having Chewie as a pet and not continue on with anything horse related for myself, but I, on the other hand, also feel that there are some things I’ve done wrong that need to be fixed (like the harness) before I totally call it quits.

So, we’ll see.

[Chewbacca]

It isn’t always the harness, equipment, training, lack thereof, etc. Sometimes, it really is just the horse.

Not to keep dwelling, but I wanted to say that - this is a really good point- however, as Spock said “when you eliminate all possibilities, whatever remains must be the truth” LOL. Ok, Star Trek fan coming out in me.

But what I mean to say, is that (so far) I’ve been trying to use the limited driving knowledge I have with equipment that is not up to par, to train a horse that’s been ridden his whole life to now do something totally different.

Shouldn’t I give the horse the benefit of removing all other problem-causing factors before I call it quits?

Like, OK, I know the harness isn’t right, but I’ve kept using it while waiting for the new one to come. It just did. So once I change to the new harness, I’ve eliminated the harness issue totally. Still have problems? Find a trainer. Still having problems? Well, hell, at that point, I’ve eliminated everything else that could be problem-creating, so at the point, the only thing I have left is “the horse just ain’t gonna do it”.

I am NOT trying (nor do I want to) force him to do something he is not cut out to do. However, at the same time, I also feel that I need to give him his best opportunity to see if he can/will/is going to.

yes?

[China_Doll]

[QUOTE=Chewbacca;5686844]
Welp…
He has now had 8 weeks of tire pulling. Yes, he won’t go forward when I tried to sit on the tire, but you have to take into account my weight in combo with the sand/drag factor, and also the harness points which have been discussed. When I tried sitting in the tire (which I actually only did twice), he pulls, stops, and although he tries to restart, he just doesn’t. He tries and tries, but there’s just no forward. It’s kind of like a shuffle sideways and a hearty heave forward, and then ultimately, calmly walking backwards. Could possibly be a discomfort issue with the BC as opposed to resistance/unwillingness. He really tries to go forward, but just doesn’t.

I am hopeful, although not terribly confident that the new harness, with wider, curved BC will help resolve some of the problems, but no, I certainly don’t expect a full resolution based solely on the harness change only. I am also hopeful that since the cart rolls and the tires drag, I may see better luck.

Would love to find a CDE trainer. Haven’t found one yet that I can afford. LOL. Or that’s close by. At this point, I am not willing to send Chewie off anywhere for any training by anyone. Period.

As far as souring horses that I’ve done in the past- that has all always only ever been with riding, which is why I don’t & won’t ride anymore. Never soured anything that drives (at least not yet…).

I have numerous omens to give up horses all together. Like the souring of my riding horses over the last 7 years, and now the problems with getting Chew to drive, and oh, the blow out of my tire on the horse trailer while Chewie was loaded. Yep. Awesome f***ing that was.

I love horses, always have. And I’m not (at least not at this point) quite yet ready to totally throw in the towel. I can live with having Chewie as a pet and not continue on with anything horse related for myself, but I, on the other hand, also feel that there are some things I’ve done wrong that need to be fixed (like the harness) before I totally call it quits.

So, we’ll see.[/QUOTE][B][I]Yes, he won’t go forward when I tried to sit on the tire, but you have to take into account my weight in combo with the sand/drag factor, When I tried sitting in the tire (which I actually only did twice), he pulls, stops, and although he tries to restart, he just doesn’t. He tries and tries, but there’s just no forward. It’s kind of like a shuffle sideways and a hearty heave forward, and then ultimately, calmly walking backwards. Could possibly be a discomfort issue with the BC as opposed to resistance/unwillingness. He really tries to go forward, but just doesn’t.

[/I][/B]
We have taken that into account but I don’t think you have, how many times does he have to try and tray and fail? I am afraid once yuo get better equipment you are going to try and try again.

He did rear once - in resistance to going forward. But, at the time he reared, he had been hitched the vehicle 5 times, and had only pulled me on the sled twice. I jumped the gun.
[B][I) Rearing can be caused by too much weight and not being able to go forward. If this was the cart even though it would roll easier he may have been anticipation it being heavier like you in the tire

Every time you have hitched you have too small of a goal. You think 5 minutes is a magor accomplishment and if everything is going well I would keep going. He now stops after a bit and won’t go, could he think that his lesson is over?

Pay attention to what this 12 year old horse is telling you, he is not a newby and may teach you a thing or 2

[fivehorses]

I am kind of new at driving training, so take what I say for what its worth.

Sitting in the tire causes the tire to ‘weigh’ a lot and cause resistance.
Most horses, good horses, will not pull, push when they meet resisitance…they’ve been trained to yield to resistance. You know, pressure, release thing.

When I horse pulls a cart, sleigh, etc it rolls, and there really isn’t a whole lot of resistance.

I think your horse had such a hard time with that because he felt the weight and interpreted it as resistance(rightly so).

I don’t, none of us do, know your experience, intuition, etc.
It sounds like you have a real nice horse, who in my opinion, would make a good driving horse.
However, you need to find someone who can teach you as well as him.

I currently have a trainer, and although I feel plenty experienced, I am learning an awful lot. She comes to the farm and works with me and the horses.

I hope you can find someone who can work with you.

[gothedistance]

[QUOTE=Chewbacca;5686859]
Not to keep dwelling, but I wanted to say that - this is a really good point- however, as Spock said “when you eliminate all possibilities, whatever remains must be the truth” LOL. Ok, Star Trek fan coming out in me. <snip>

I am NOT trying (nor do I want to) force him to do something he is not cut out to do. However, at the same time, I also feel that I need to give him his best opportunity to see if he can/will/is going to.

yes?[/QUOTE]

I could tell you you’ve already given him those opportunities, and he’s already told you the answer. Horses are very giving creatures by nature. To be having this amount of trouble, especially for a horse that is already happily riding, says there is more than an equipment problem or training problem here.

Spock could also have said “we are a genetically gifted strategically minded species, able to take intuitive leaps based upon our own and outside experience without having to slog through the mud of endless lists of possibilities in order to reach to a critical point of decision”.

Your horse, your time, your decision. You asked, we answered. I think half of your brain has already taken that leap that this is not a driving candidate; the other (emotional) half just refuses to accept that this quiet horse doesn’t want to do this new job. ‘Why won’t he?’ you ask. ‘He’s so quiet!! He should do anything I ask. What’s wrong? Is it the harness, my lack of a teacher?’

And why would that driving instructor suddenly have ducked out of sight? Money is money no matter whose hand it passes from. But a horse with “you will fail” written all over it is a permanent blot on a record, and something most savvy instructors stay far away from. The other person that did try, failed. And they are used to working with highly strung animals. Your horse went blue wave violent. You need to listen: the equipment wasn’t the issue. She wasn’t yanking him in, or doing anything that a martingale or a slow twist would inhibit. She was asking him to go forward. He refused. She insisted. He blew sky high and had a raging fit.

The issue was your horse. He doesn’t.want.to.do.this.

Again, it is entirely up to you. You think you are not trying to force him into doing something he doesn’t want to do. I, on the other hand, think you are forcing him. He’s being nice enough to you, trying to tell you in a gentle way. He is accepting certain things because I’m sure he likes you and wants to be a good boy, but refusing to advance further because he doesn’t want this job. He turned violent with the other person because they not only refused to listen, they tried to push the issue. That is the only outlet a horse has to try to get us to understand.

As I said before, sometimes it isn’t the tack, the teeth, the hocks, or anything else. Sometimes it is simply the wrong job for the horse.

Again, JMHO.

[China_Doll]

I don’t agree that it is the wrong horse. Sounds like he was doing ok until unreasonable requests were made like pulling some dead weight around by a puny little breast collar. That continued even though he expressed his irritation and possible pain and he reacted. A solid horse doesn’t just rear for no reason. (assumption because he is 12 and I didn’t see where he had previous issues)
He now may have issues that may be more difficult to resolve from his bad experiences but I would go back and starting over and see how he progresses personally. I think chewbacca is skilled enough for this but I am concerned she does not take heed to what the horse is telling her and brings these problems on herself.

[Chewbacca]

Ok, well I did want to offer a quick update.

I went out to the barn to work Chewie tonight (back to his old routine now that he’s home and happy). I did get my new harness, which incidentally is gorgeous and I love it. I recently got the same harness for the hackney and also love that one.

Anyway, so after a bit of ground driving which was perfect, I hitched up his tires. And he wouldn’t pull! LOL! I was like uh, oh… He wouldn’t go forward. Then I realized I had the traces running through the breeching and it was pulling down the breeching and pulling up on the crupper. So I adjusted that and off we went and he was great.

Super great. So great in fact, that I decided, hell bent to sink or swim and see this thing through (regardless of how it ends), I went to sit on the tires. I had 3 tires in my “train” and sat on the middle on, and immediately broke the bungee holding the train together. Ooops. So I couldn’t have my 3 tires anymore with nothing to hold them. There was still the first tire, though, which is secured with a chain.

So I sat on the small tire and said “walk on Chewie” and off we went!!!

No objections, no quaffs, no nothing. He just sunk his head down on the bit and hauled off. I sat indian style in the tire and just got pulled and pulled and pulled and pulled. We went around at least 20 times and I made sure to include lots of circles, changes of directions, and the most important thing - “whoa” and “walk on” I never had to get up out of the tire once.

He does have the new breast collar, and a pad. And while I wasn’t expecting a miraculous turn around with the new equipment, I was apparently wrong, because I got one. WE EVEN TROTTED. Ok, I was only brave enough for a little trotting, but hey. And then my back hurt so I had to stop. I was covered in dirt, but had a lot of fun!

This was THEEEEE first successful “driving” experience I’ve had with him. We had no help, no witnesses (bummer - that also means no pictures), and no header. And he just pulled and pulled and pulled and pulled. Head down, and happy as a clam.

Never once did he object, back, refuse to pull, or even toss his head.

So!!! WAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Ok, yes, I know we are long way from actually teetering around the arena in the cart, but this was a massive, massive, massive, massive step in the right direction.

And suddenly, I feel much more confident about where we are heading, and in my “training” abilities, and in the horse’s future as a driving horse.

Now, of course, this could be a total fluke and I’ll be back on here bitching about how he won’t pull in a day or two (lol), but I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

[gothedistance]

Good show! Hope it wasn’t a fluke. And keeping fingers crossed with ya.