Training Collars

[Live_Wire]

Please recommend your preferred training collars.

Back story: We recently implemented a new puppy into our little pack. Since, I have found three possum carcasses. Even though I’ve never seen a possum in the five years I’ve lived here, I could write it off because we are surrounded by woods and wild life and dogs are, well, dogs.

WELLLLLLLL. Tonight I was taking the trash can up from the barn and puppy was trotting around with a possum. I wasn’t thrilled, but I was happy it wasn’t decomposing. Shuffled dogs inside. Grabbed a bag and gloves. Went to retrieve said possum. Said possum WASNT there.

I am not okay with this behavior. We like to eliminate any prey drive as soon as it presents itself. Obviously we will be taking several other precautions and continuing to work on manners and recall, but I would like to teach her to respond to a training collar in case she’s out of my reach. What are your favorite brands and features.

Don’t come at me. I know how to correctly use a training collar. It will never be used as a punishment.

[S1969]

I’m sorry, but I’m laughing. “We like to eliminate prey drive?”

It’s a dog. You’re not going to eliminate prey drive, nor should you. (And for some breeds, you have to learn to live with it.) You CAN train them to act (or not) on prey drive, but you may not be able to reliably change their instincts to not act when you are not supervising them. You aren’t going to turn off prey drive; they are born with it - some waaay more than others.

My 3 wear Garmin Sport PRO; I have the multi-dog option and it is the best for running multiple dogs – very easy to switch between dogs. They are good in water, and I believe up to a half mile, which is all I need because my dogs are not loose without me.

Mine won’t chase deer when I’m supervising, but if they got out and were having a free for all, I’m pretty sure they would. Best option is to limit what they can get to and/or minimize wildlife in the yard. I have a dog fence, but possums and rabbits…if they get in…I can’t really prevent the dogs from hunting them. It’s their nature.

What breed did you get?

[Kemosabe]

As @S1969: prey drive is instinctive, higher in some breeds than others. What you want to encourage is impulse control. I have herding dogs, every single one of them as pups wanted to herd/chase the chickens, the squirrels, the horses, baby skunks, cats.

I use a slip lead for training, only allowing the puppy freedom in a dog-fenced area until I have good recall. When I am at the barn, the puppy is on the slip lead or in an ex pen. No training collar needed.

I have Aussies, it takes time and patience for them to learn impulse control.

[S1969]

To expand - I have no issues with the use of training collars - they are just long distance communicators.

But the “training” isn’t about prey drive, it’s about specific commands that I have taught, and expecting them to comply. E.g. come, wait, stand, “this way” etc.

This is why I don’t think it’s always possible to “train” a dog not to hunt. The only reason they wear collars is to obey my specific commands - “don’t hunt” isn’t a command that I would ever teach (nor do I think could be taught to a hunting dog.)

Can you teach impulse control? Of course. Is it reliable when you’re not supervising? Maybe. Maybe not. Again - really depends on the breed and the strength of that instinct. I doubt most owners of terriers could untrain prey drive, or of most gun dogs. Some have more instinct than others (based a lot on breeding, of course), but I have yet to meet a Brittany that didn’t hunt.

[OnAMission]

OP, I used a Sportdog long range collar years ago to put a stop on a particularily driven BMC that was absolutely surrounded by deer in the yard and wilderness beyond that. It was the only thing that would stop her from running straight into the wolf pack that lived in the valley behind our house. Worked perfectly.

[DiamondJubilee]

I use an Educator on my Greater Swiss MD (works up to 3/4 of a mile and waterproof). She has a strong prey drive (much more so than I thought she would) and I don’t have a problem with her chasing the wildlife around here (deer, turkey and small animals - thankfully she doesnt chase or herd our horses), but she needs to come when I call her as we are close to the road. If she happens to be chasing something near the road, the collar works really well and I pretty much don’t even need to use it at all anymore, or I just use the vibrate to break her concentration so she comes back to me.

If we are out back and we see a bunch of turkey, I let her chase them as we are far from the road. I do worry about our coyotes and her chasing them, but so far they have not come around our farm since we’ve had her. I have a feeling I’ll be seeing them shortly though and will ensure to have her collar on then as she does respect it.

[Simkie]

Right now you’re not supervising this dog to correct when she goes after possums. Why do you think a training collar is going to change that? The issue here is the lack of supervision, not the means of communication.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Agree you’re not going to eliminate prey drive (regardless of breed). Do you teach the command “leave it”? This is important just in general, no matter what the breed. I recall having some very vigorous “leave it” discussions with my chihuahua when she picked up thing on our walks, including one very memorable one when she grabbed a KFC breast someone had tossed out of the window.

[DiamondJubilee]

@simkie - super good point. The collar only works when supervised of course. It won’t work if you aren’t able to keep your eye on your pup of course and use it responsibly while being supervised 100%. You really want to be careful when its being used as it can do more harm than good and confuse your pup as well.

It is a great training tool as I found it really helped, but I worked with a trainer at first and watched a lot of videos on how to train my dog and myself on how to use it.

[Live_Wire]

Eliminate was a poor choice of words. Address would have been better. Semantics, my fault.

I had not known she was out, my boyfriend let her out. I’m going to give him a pass as he’s normally out with them or gives me a heads up before he lets them out but we’ve both been fighting COVID for the past several days so I don’t think either of us are in tip top form.

She knows sit, lay, stand, stay, drop, and release. We’re working on her eye contact and she’s learning heel, wait, and back. She’s five months old and we got her a little late, so she’s right on track for a companion animal.

I would like to incorporate a training collar into her training program because we do have quite a few dogs (think pack) and I would rather have another tool in the box than not. I’ve worked with several bird dogs and a couple of herding dogs (taught to herd geese at the country club I worked at, it’s was the most fun job I’ve ever had!) so I’m not a stranger to training collars or proper training, but it’s been years since I’ve purchased a training collar and I’m sure technology has changed so I was looking for suggestions.

[Live_Wire]

Agreed. It was a very poor choice of words. We have German shepherds, we will never eliminate their prey drive, but we do like to provide proper training to represent their breed well.

Thank you for your suggestion! I’ve had good success with Garmin in the past.

[Live_Wire]

Agreed. We only use slip leads!

Our barn is in our back yard and it is their yard to protect. During the day she’s loose because her recall is very good. At night I generally have her on lead until she’s a little bit older/more trustworthy, but this was a one off.

[Live_Wire]

I love the tenacity of a chihuahua we have a Chinese crested who is very similar. Puppy has a drop command but I should really teach her to leave it too. She will normally just drop and come to me so I guess I’ve let that one slip by the wayside.

[endlessclimb]

@Live_Wire

I’ve worked with several bird dogs

Not every bird dog is trained with a collar. Most are, but it’s almost entirely unnecessary. You see some of the assholes with 3 (3!!!) collars on one dog - one on the belly, one on the top of the neck, one on the bottom of the neck.

On left Lucy, 9x NSTRA champion. Most accomplished Vizsla in NSTRA history. Total bird psycho. Has never worn a training collar. On right, Maci, this years Regional Winner with a score of 1245. Total bird psycho. Has never worn a collar, one of the best backing dogs I’ve ever seen.

We have another Vizsla in the wings, has never worn a collar, will never wear a collar.

What you need is supervision, a good leave it, or a good retrieve (but who wants to be BROUGHT a possum lol).

Dogs will be dogs though, and though our dogs will point and not attack them - we would never be able to teach them not to follow their nose to the new animal.

[meupatdoes]

@S1969

This is why I don’t think it’s always possible to “train” a dog not to hunt.

Agree.

What you’re really training is a replacement behavior.
(i.e. “come sit by me instead”)

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

Not every bird dog is trained with a collar. Most are, but it’s almost entirely unnecessary.

Well, sure, it’s not always necessary. But there is nothing at all wrong with using one. I agree that 3 is unnecessary and probably some kind of shortcut to training.

I’ve known some NAVHDA dogs that were trained for certain things entirely with a collar - for example, I knew someone that trained the dog to heel (on and off lead) with an e-collar, not a leash, not positive reinforcement. Because their dog understood the collar very well, it was faster and easier to teach the dog the heel position (and by that I mean the collar was used as negative reinforcement for incorrect response, just like leg aids in riding).

It is not necessary (or correct) to shock the dog for making a mistake, or to fry them for anything that isn’t life or death. But if used correctly they can be gentler than many other training methods, and more appropriate than positive reinforcement, depending on command. They are just another tool in the toolbox, and especially useful for long distance communication.

My dogs rarely get the stim setting but I use the beep every day. I can’t always see them, and they can’t always hear me. My oldest is pretty deaf and has cataracts. The collar is the best way to communicate with him when off lead now. He can’t hear my voice, and even my whistle isn’t loud enough for him if he’s 1/4 mile away.

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

My dogs rarely get the stim setting but I use the beep every day. I can’t always see them, and they can’t always hear me. My oldest is pretty deaf and has cataracts. The collar is the best way to communicate with him when off lead now. He can’t hear my voice, and even my whistle isn’t loud enough for him if he’s 1/4 mile away.

I don’t have a problem with using one, in your case with the older dog. But to use them for training, I really do have a problem with. It’s a crutch and a shortcut for easily 95% of people using them. I find hunting people to be the worst about this - can’t get your dog to do X? Put an e-collar on him!

Example - my mutt dog was out with us training, and I was just messing around with her playing fetch with a tennis ball in the parking lot. She decided to “celebrate” a retrieve, brought it all the way to me, and threw the ball up in the air and caught it in front of me in joy. One of the guys saw that and said, “ha, that’s why I use an e-collar.” What? I want a dog, not a robot. I want her to be having FUN. If that means that one out of 100 retrieves she has a mild bobble, that’s ok.

I find far too many people want robots in animal sport - both horses and dogs. They’re going to make mistakes, and sometimes that’s fine and the person needs to move on, not use the hot button.

You know as well as I do for every one person using the collar in a humane way, there are 5 (or more) using them to inflict pain on the dog.

[S1969]

@endlessclimb

I don’t have a problem with using one, in your case with the older dog. But to use them for training, I really do have a problem with. It’s a crutch and a shortcut for easily 95% of people using them. I find hunting people to be the worst about this - can’t get your dog to do X? Put an e-collar on him!

I haven’t seen a lot of people abuse collars, although of course I’m sure some do.

But I don’t think it’s a crutch or shortcut. Every dog is not the same, and some are not as compliant with certain things. If you’re hunting and you don’t really care how the dog retrieves - if it drops or if it chews it - maybe it doesn’t matter. It’s hard to train “don’t chew” a bird with positive reinforcement when your dog is 200 feet away with a bird in the mouth. The bird is the reward in that case. In many cases, the collar isn’t necessary, but it might be the fastest way to teach the command. What is wrong with that? In some cases, it might be the only way to teach the command.

I think I’ve told this story before but I have a friend with a Brittany with amazing titles on both ends that would not pick up a bird. Loved to hunt, would not retrieve a bird. She would retrieve every other thing - dumbbells, toys, you name it. But not a bird. The owner (and handler) tried every possible thing to avoid force fetch. Ultimately she used FF and the dog is a master hunter now. GCH, MH and about a zillion agility, obedience and rally titles.

It’s easy to say other methods are cheap shortcuts, until you have a dog that doesn’t respond to something that works for other dogs.

[endlessclimb]

I think a dog that stands and chews on a bird instead of retrieving it has more than likely been punished (verbally or otherwise) for a lackluster retrieve. Somewhere along the way, the handler made retrieving a high value thing “not fun”. In our house ANYthing that gets retrieved is met with great praise. Maci is retrieving all sorts of things all the time - she can’t WAIT to give it to you. My clothes are her favorite!

And the dog that wouldn’t retrieve birds was likely not feather conditioned in a timely manner. My mutt dog HATES to retrieve birds because she hates the texture of feathers - I got her at 4 months and she saw her first bird at 1 year+. Yet, she will retrieve them if you encourage her enough (with an “ew ew ew” look on her face).

Both of your examples point to handlers inexperienced in raising a bird dog. They either try to put too much obedience on before building the drive (I see this ALL THE TIME - you can’t have a brilliant hunter if he wasn’t conditioned to be bird crazy to start with - I know a guy right now who is trying to make his PUPPY steady to wing and shot right off the bat and I can nearly guarantee the dog will quit on him before he gets there), or don’t start conditioning/praising good behavior in a timely manner.

Then, when nothing else works because it wasn’t done in a timely manner, the E-collar comes out. Maybe, at that moment, it’s the only option left - but let’s be honest and admit that it’s handler error that caused that tool to come out of the toolbox.

Raising performance dogs is not easy, and reconditioning ill behavior is not easy either - but the bad behavior started with the handler not encouraging the right things at an instrumental time (not doing their homework, or doing it wrong).

[endlessclimb]

@S1969

The bird is the reward in that case.

And I don’t entirely agree with this. The reward is praise from the handler. Birds are the “game” they have to play to get the praise. Our dogs retrieve birds with the same intensity they retrieve the dummy launcher. They want the “good girl!” and the kiss on the cheek they get for bringing it back.