Im teaching my ottb to collect and go in a frame, he does it perfectley for my trainer when she rides him and he did it for me to for a while but he has started resisting when I ask him, he does it for my trainer still, she says im doing everything correctly. What could I be doing wrong or why do you think he would be resisting?
He is resisting because you are teaching him to go “in a frame” which means putting all your attention on his head and neck carriage. You need to learn how to collect a horse correctly and get him to use his hind end.
Quite often a pro rider can muscle a horse into doing things that are uncomfortable or plain wrong. Ammies and Juniors often ride wrongly, of course, but they usually lack the force and effectiveness to force a horse to do things.
I would suggest another trainer. This one sounds like she is teaching you the wrong way (but I don’t know for sure), but it also sounds like she cannot effectively teach you to get the results she wants you to get.
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Some things to check. One that you have enough energy coming from the back end for him to move forward and accept the contact.
Two, you are not trying to pull his head down and in but keeping a steady hand and contact that allows him to reach for it and accept it.
A common mistake as Scribbler noted it to just look at the head and neck instead of making sure the horse is straight and has impulse.
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I’m an ammy, so take my advice with a grain of salt! But what I have learned is that you always PUSH the horse into a frame, not PULL. It really is a matter of riding leg to hand. So like Sport said, ensure that you have plenty of energy coming forward from the back end. At the same time, you’re keeping a consistent steady (but still soft) hand so he goes into the bridle. I also find that suppleness is key, so I do lots of circles, serpentine, and bending.
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Your trainer should be able to discuss this with you… but it isn’t “putting in a frame”. You’ve got to get your horse moving from back to front and move him into your contact. It isn’t a position you force them to hold, it comes from riding correctly. It can take a lot of time to build the correct muscles, get the horse going straight, get them pushing from behind, get them BALANCED, etc. You may be using too much hand. He may not be strong enough. There are so many pieces to the puzzle that without videos, photos, or further information it is impossible to really pinpoint what is going on. If your horse is pretty fresh off track you are expecting too much from him.
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If you were doing it completely correctly, the horse would collect for you too, Suspect you might have him in a “ false frame”, his head and neck are low but he is not really coming through from behind, dies take a good deal of saddle time to develop the strength of position and timing needed, Horse looks like they are but they aren’t. Can fool any but the most experienced observers.
Its not easy properly collecting a horse but it’s not hard to create false frame. Maybe boning up on theory would be helpful understanding and I always found lateral work like the half pass and shoulder/ haunch in and out worthwhile in loosening up horse and rider enough to correctly come rom behind. Ask your trainer to work with you on that…they should have already given you more help anyway. JMO. Perhaps you have outgrown their skill level or ability to communicate with you.
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Forget about a “frame”. Don’t pull on the reins. Kick. When the horse engages his hind end and is moving forward correctly, and is soft and responsive in your hand, his front end holds itself. You don’t have to do anything with the front end, just the hind end. Don’t pull on a racehorse, you will be off to the races. He can pull harder than you can.
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Despite your best intentions, I don’t think this question CAN be being acutely represent. If your horse is coming together for your trainer and not for you, you are doing something different than she is. Perhaps she is unable to detect this difference, or she is unable to conver it to you accurately, but your horse can tell. Do you have this issue with other horses?
Strength, feel and timing take a lifetime to develop. Do some reading about what it actually means to get a horse round and over his back. Jane Savoie has a lot of material online and is wonderful at articulating ideas in a way that’s easy to apply. Do some homework and work on getting your horse to come from behind before you ask for over his back.
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Everyone above essentially has it.
Way of going is essentially constructed by doing everything right. With a very few exceptions, when everything lines up, the horse will be going “in a frame.” It’s tempting to just cheat and play a get out of jail free/pass go card, but it doesn’t work that way. Strong riders can typically muscle a horse around into a way of going that might “look” like they are in a frame but the horse meets none of the appropriate prerequisites.
Your checklist is basically this: relaxation (working over the back, not resisting or blocking anywhere), connection (acceptance of the bit/an elastic and fluid connection that can give & take), and impulsion (adding energy to a gait that already should have a consistent cadence-no rushing/slowing down intermittently).
Many people think “frame” comes from “connection” (the hand). They ride the head and the neck and actually introduce tension and resistance because most horses don’t much appreciate being muscled around or busy/strong/unyielding hands that keep fussing and nitpicking at them. This happens because “frame” is generally most easily seen in regards to headset, but the reality is, the actual way of going is impossible unless the above prerequisites are met. You need to have a horse that has enough impulsion and push from behind to generate the energy that they can actually sustainably go in such a style of moving (rather than dropping the head or lifting it for balance/energy), but that energy from behind is a moot point unless the horse is also soft and relaxed so the energy can travel from the hind end through the back/body/neck, all the way to the front of the horse. This is where poor connection comes into play, because riders tend to be our own worst enemy in this regard: we block the energy or chip away at the impulsion, creating a horse that lacks the freedom of movement/relaxation to actually do anything with it.
Talking about “training a horse to go in a frame” is like a kindergartener being asked “So how will you defend your doctoral thesis?”
It’s the wrong question to be asking. What the right questions are: What do you mean when you talk about a frame? What is it you are looking to address? When you see a horse “in a frame” what is it your eye sees (and what is it that your eye misses, based on the content of my post above & earlier posters as well)?
“Frame” is an end product result of multiple building blocks. Riders can’t just jump straight into it and go “GO IN A FRAME!” without doing due diligence to the legwork that leads up to it - but if “going in a frame” is the starting point, it may be that people lack the education or understanding to the mechanics of what it actually means and it needs to be broken down to all the assorted parts.
Which, incidentally, is the job of a professional and it sounds like that guidance isn’t forthcoming so I agree with the post above that recommends diversifying the pros you work with because the lack of clarity on this matter is generally not so reassuring to me.
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Great advice given but also remember that when they are using their bodies correctly to achieve collection that it’s hard on them and they can’t hold it for very long at one time. Like everything else it takes conditioning and strengthening before they can hold it consistently - and that takes a good while.
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I get clients with this same problem. They get frustrated that their horse goes more correctly for me…but I ride more than they do, and that helps with my balance and my timing. It is hard to have the correct muscle control and feel when you ride 2-5 days a week. One thing that may help, is to make sure you are using both concentric and eccentric muscles all the time: so when you pull, you are still keeping your push muscles engaged, and when you give, you are still keeping your pull muscles engaged. Kind of like how your muscles feel when you push a wheel barrow. This helps improve feel and subtlety. Another common amateur mistake, is to accelerate their aids too slowly. So they go from 1/4 lbs pressure, to 2/5 lbs pressure to 1/2 lbs pressure, to 3/5 lbs pressure (both with leg or hand), but a pro will ask softly once, and then go to a much stronger aid, to teach the horse to answer more promptly to the light aid. Slowly increasing pressure just creates a dull/stiff horse.
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Riding with the idea that the horse has to “go in a frame” is pretty much self-defeating and encourages riders to ride backwards rather than push the horse up into the bridle. Glad everyone here agrees on that.
Not knowing any details about you, I would say that branching out and working with a good dressage trainer for awhile will do wonders for you and your horse, and vastly improve his jumping in the future as well. Find thee a proper dressage trainer and enjoy the learning.
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Like many other riding questions, the answer is “more leg.”
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This question is way too complex to be answered in brief. You should read “Centered Riding”, by Sally Swift. You won’t regret it. Promise.
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What are some good exercises that I could do with him to get him to engage his hind end better?
Transitions, transitions, transitions.
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^This. Transitions, done well, are a very useful tool in engaging the hind. They are your best friend. Get your horse moving forward with impulsion (not just running forward on their fore or plodding along with no energy). Here is an article I would suggest you read (there are many out there, but this is a good one) that explains how and why straightness, impulsion, balance, etc are important and necessary to engage the hind. https://stridesforsuccess.com/engaging-your-horses-hind-quarters/ A lot of this is on you riding correctly, not just exercises. Exercises done poorly will not help, so really focus on how you are riding on straight lines and simple figures. 10 meter circles are good to do as well… make sure your horse doesn’t fall out in the shoulder and maintains pace. You can also use raised poles/cavaletti.
Ingrid Klimke has a cavaletti book out which is an excellent resource for cavaletti exercises (which tend to improve the hind end). However, I would also recommend finding a dressage trainer to work with. There are a number of “dressage exercises” that are pretty inter-disciplinary (as you’re finding out). Transitions, using circles and spiraling with an emphasis on where the shoulder or hind end is (and where the body flexion is) that can all really help develop the hind end.
Seconding (or thirding) the find a good dressage trainer. I forget what old-school trainer said it, but it’s along the lines of dressage starts at Prix St George, everything below that is riding basics. Reading is good, but it’s easy to fall into the trap of riding an exercise poorly without a set of trained eyes to watch and make sure it’s being ridden correctly (aka actually beneficial).
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Learn how to ride properly.
