Training Rides: What are your expectations?

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=TrailRides4Fun;8589614]

you have no idea who I am, or my skill level, level of my horse, etc.[/QUOTE]
No one does…do they?
People comment based on what you posted.
The comment may or may not apply when more information is provided, but the comment is based on what you have provided and only what you have provided.

I admit, I do not disagree with the comment.
I can not imagine a trainer wanting a client who insists training rides and lessons are X amount of time, period.

Any trainer I have every used (for training rides or lessons) have a time aimed for (a lesson time slot for example), but if things are going great and we have been going for half an hour instead of the allotted 45 minutes I see no reason to keep going. If at 45 minutes we are still not quite right, we continue to have a success so we end on a high note. The short and the long even out in the end and it is doing what is best for the horse (and the rider).

[mjhco]

I expect a ‘training ride’ to include someone (maybe a working student) warming up the horse and cooling it down. And the horse getting actual TRAINING. Not just a hack.

When Shade was in full training, I was up there most of the time for lessons. When I had to be out of town he got ‘training’ rides. He told me line and verse what happened when I rode him again. He told me if those warming him up just poked along at the walk. So, I gave feedback to my trainer when I perceived someone was not walking him properly. That only happened a couple times in a great many years.

Your mileage may vary. You need to have a heart to heart with your trainer regarding your expectations concerning training rides.

[dressagediosa]

I ride the horse, not the clock.

[theresak]

If the trainer regularly is only on to WTC and the horse is capable of more, then it’s not a good training ride. But there are a lot of surrounding circumstances I’d consider as well.

For a young/green horse or a horse with some mental issues to work through, I think 20 minutes is perfect a few times a week with a longer ride once or twice.

Also, if it’s a horse that the day before worked on a new skill or fixed something specific, the next day do a 15 minute warm up, revisit the skill/fix and if it’s good, hop off. I can see this happening for a schoolmaster that needs a tune up a few rides in a row.

[mjhco]

[QUOTE=dressagediosa;8589677]
I ride the horse, not the clock.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. But for a ‘training ride’ I expect someone to ride that is a lot better rider than me. And not just for a hack.

[Silverbridge]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8589664]
If at 45 minutes we are still not quite right, we continue to have a success so we end on a high note. The short and the long even out in the end and it is doing what is best for the horse (and the rider).[/QUOTE]

It’s interesting how many people are advocating going either under or over the allotted time. In my trainer’s case at present, the allotment is 45 min and her schedule is too full to go over time. She travels to two barns with an hour’s drive between. If she went over at our place in the mornings, she’d never get all the afternoon horses schooled or taught on the west side.

I think experienced pros should have the time management skills to know at what point to wind up on a good note or an easy movement for a horse who’s been struggling in a session. In that way they can finish on something positive without going over. But the schedule is the schedule for many busy trainers and particularly those who don’t live at or own the facilities.

We do often wrap up in less time than the allotted 45 min. Just yesterday and today the sessions were 35 min based on my mare coming out connected and balanced from the start, and being able to school things well that are at the height of our current capabilities, and do them well without repetition. When she’s like that she often doesn’t go the full 45, or if it’s a show weekend looming and we want to keep things short and sweet, etc.

The expectation is always that the trainer will do as discussed and work on what we’ve discussed, when I’m not present for rides. Communication is as always the key to expectations being met.

[netg]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8589319]
I also don’t think a trainer should charge an owner to ride their horse while simultaneously teaching a lesson. Both customers are short-changed.[/QUOTE]

It depends - my gelding HAS to have a lot of loose rein walk breaks because he’s finally truly accepting contact after a lot of fear, but working without those breaks will make him feel claustrophobic and panicky again. He also needs more time spent with other horses in the ring with him. My trainer has clients who need time to walk and relax themselves. So either my lessons on my gelding or training rides on my gelding with another horse being used in the ring at the same time can be good. They may go longer than 45 minutes depending on needs, though, too.

To me, the first answer is: something which makes the owner happy with the circumstances. For the OP, I think you’re showing 2nd/schooling 3rd/4th kind of work? In that case, every other horse I’ve known of at that point was working to increase sit and power significantly. I could easily see 20 minutes of work and stopping the training portion of the ride because that can be HARD for a horse. At the same time, I would most definitely expect proper cooling, whether in the saddle or in hand. If it’s other trainers, I just try to remind myself that we each choose our own situation and what we’re going to accept, and sometimes what I find acceptable isn’t to other people - and just attempt to shut off my brain whenever I start questioning what others get for their money. If it’s a total beginner being taken advantage of, that’s different and I try to help educate them on what trainers offer without bashing their own personal trainer.

[Cowgirl]

Years ago, ok 17 years, when I had a grand prix schoolmaster, I let the trainer talk me into training rides “to keep him tuned”. And what I expected was training rides (a couple a week) to keep the horse fit in the GP level of work while I worked my way up. I discovered, however, that those “training” rides were actually lessons on my trained horse for his working students. I considered that unethical (and in parts of Europe it would be illegal to charge the trainer’s rate when a lesser rider was doing the riding). I left that trainer almost immediately because of that. (I also thought if he was going to do that, he should propose to pay ME for the use of my horse. I would never have agreed, however.)

I don’t like someone else on my horse, so I just don’t do it. I have seen too much and am jaded. In addition to that trainer, I have seen a trainer take money, not ride the horses, then run them loose around the arena with a longe whip for a half hour the day before the rider comes back from vacation. I have seen a trainer ride one and give a lesson to another at the same time, without ever warming up the horse she is sitting on. I have seen a rider longe someone’s horse endlessly, day after day, without ever getting on (I assume she was afraid to) and still take training money. Unless you are there to supervise, letting someone ride your horse is just not the best idea, IMO. If you need training help, let a trainer ride your horse for the first half of your lesson so you can actually see what they are doing and sit on the horse after to see if there is improvement. If you blindly hand off a horse to someone and let them ride when you are not there, you deserve what you get.

The fact is the really GOOD trainers are in demand and will probably pick and choose what they want to ride and the others (at their rate) will be ridden by an underling (who might not even be as good a rider as you are). If you don’t ask the question of who is riding your horse and what will happen, you might not know.

[Forte]

I am a dressage trainer and ride other people’s horses. However I am also a “student” and I occasionally have another trainer ride my horses (when I am out of town, or perhaps when I want them to be jumped, which is not really my specialty). I also don’t “ride the clock”. Sometimes I ride for an hour. Sometimes I ride for a half hour (particularly in the horse is young, or not very fit). I always warm up and cool down, but the length of that warm up can vary as well. An older stiff horse that I’m taking right out of the stall is definitely going to get a lengthy walk warmup. A younger horse that’s been housed in a big field 24/7 may not get as long of a walk warmup. And sometimes I do hack the horses as part of the training ride (with the owner’s knowledge). I’m not sure why hacking wouldn’t be considered training. I have many new boarders and clients who are nervous to hack their horses in a new environment so they may ask me to hack the horse the first couple of times until they feel confident that horse is going to behave in their new environment. If I run out of time to ride the horse and end up lunging instead, I change them for a lunge and not for a training ride (about half the price). I never allow anyone else to ride the horse and I would never try to teach a lesson and ride another client’s horse at the same time. That’s double dipping. I don’t spend a huge amount of time grooming or cleaning tack. I give the horse a quick grooming to make sure there is no dirt under the tack which could irritate the horse, pick feet and make there are no swelling, cuts and bumps that I should be aware of, but I am not going to brush manes and pick shavings out of tailss. I give the girth and flash a quick wipe if they are covered in sweat/slobber and I wash off the bit. As a student, when I have another trainer ride my horse, I often specifically request that the other trainer hacks my horse as she is very brave (event rider) and is great at introducing the horse to new things like cars, bridges, water, etc . . . That’s not really my specialty and I am happy to pay her to do that sort of work with my horses when I can’t ride them for some reason.

[Scribbler]

I’m not sure if the OP is actually asking whether a 30 minute ride is enough to accomplish a training goal (as others have pointed out, yes, it can be) or if OP is actually saying: I’m paying for an hour, trainer is cutting it short, and putting horse away hot and sweaty — I feel like I’m being ripped off.

Two different questions.

I’ve watched nearly every training ride my coach has put on my horse, since I took over care for the horse, and it’s been very educational. On the other hand, these have mostly been at points where we were having behavior problems. Other than that, my coach has had me work through basic schooling in my lessons.

I don’t, however, know what it would be like to be in possession of a horse whose training level greatly exceeded my own riding level, a horse that needed to be kept tuned up by a more advanced rider. In a lot of ways, it sounds wonderful; but it also makes you more dependent on trainer support. The more aspects of care you hand over to paid help (boarding, training, exercise riding), the less control you have over the details, and the more you have to trust that your support staff are competent, honest, and reliable.

Anyhow, knowing how days unravel around horses, I would never be that surprised to learn that a given trainer was skipping, skimping, leaving town for two weeks, or handing rides over to a working student. I would however be very, very upset if it was happening to me: if I was paying for services that weren’t being delivered.

Anyhow, not a lot to add except the old maxim that comes to mind again and again when I read about issues with training and full board: “The eye of the master fattens the cattle.” Meaning the more hands-on you are, the better care your animals are going to get.

[Velvet]

[QUOTE=TrailRides4Fun;8589614]
LOL,…, this is a really rude unnecessary statement considering
you have no idea who I am, or my skill level, level of my horse, etc.
Such attacking comments just show a childish nature, and an ignorance of the discussion, for discussion sake.
Not useful, not informational :winkgrin:

When I’m paying a trainer, I’m paying for their expertise,
and I’m ok with them pushing the horse a bit
(like my trainer says, ‘picking the scab’).
I’m always present when my horse is ridden so I know her abilities.
If shes going perfectly, I’m the first one to say - quit,
but to ask a little more 1x a week, or 2x a month,
is NOT pushing the animal beyond its limits.
Thats why I bring in a trainer, otherwise, I can put the time on my horse, myself.[/QUOTE]

It was an observational statement In your later comments you are still showing your ignorance if you think timed rides are good training. I shows that you do not know what goes into training horses and have unrealistic expectations and are basing them on some odd concept of time equaling value in horse training. I stand by my statement. It was not rude, it was the truth, based on your statement.

[TrailRides4Fun]

I think when a ‘trainer’ charges by the hour,
they need to justify that hour of time to the paying client (ME).
Do I think my horse needs a full hour of riding, not necessarily,
BUT, I expect a good 50-55 minutes of that person’s time,
especially if those are their terms, and how they charge for their time.
Do things come up and time gets cut short, or runs over - SURE it does.
As long as it all evens out.

When the lazy trainer I was using, charged me by the hour,
and THEN showed up consistently 20 minutes late every single day,
making me have to have the horse tacked up and waiting,
then would lunge the horse for 15 minutes and then ride/SIT for 15 minutes,
then hand me the reins to cool out & leave- SHE DEFINITELY GOT FIRED.
She was TERRIBLE! End of story.
My horse got nothing from being exposed to her training.
She charged the ‘going rate’ and then proceeded to ruin her own
reputation in the business.

Now, when I see her ‘training’ other peoples horses by just sitting on them,
not moving, for 20 minutes, that IS NOT Training :no:
That person was just taking money, and not doing a job.

Good trainers actually TRAIN.
Really good trainers also take the time to teach the owner thru follow up
discussion, goal setting, etc.
That person was a fraud, and has since been fired repeatedly
for her inexcusable, bad ‘training’ practices.

[TrailRides4Fun]

@TrailRides4Fun;8589614

LOL,…, this is a really rude unnecessary statement considering
you have no idea who I am, or my skill level, level of my horse, etc.
Such attacking comments just show a childish nature, and an ignorance of the discussion, for discussion sake.
Not useful, not informational :winkgrin:

Velvet, I stand by MY statement to you.
You are dissecting my comments in order to be bit@hy.

[QUOTE=Velvet;8589799]
It was an observational statement
In your later comments you are still showing your ignorance if you think timed rides are good training.
I shows that you do not know what goes into training horses and have unrealistic expectations and are basing them on some odd concept of time equaling value in horse training.
I stand by my statement. It was not rude, it was the truth, based on your statement.[/QUOTE]

Stop ‘over-analyzing’ so you can justify an excuse to go on the attack.
Grow up! :yes:

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=netg;8589734]
It depends - my gelding HAS to have a lot of loose rein walk breaks because he’s finally truly accepting contact after a lot of fear, but working without those breaks will make him feel claustrophobic and panicky again. He also needs more time spent with other horses in the ring with him. My trainer has clients who need time to walk and relax themselves. So either my lessons on my gelding or training rides on my gelding with another horse being used in the ring at the same time can be good. They may go longer than 45 minutes depending on needs, though, too.[/QUOTE]

There are days when it makes sense but when a trainer habitually uses this as a way to save time, and the horse needing the training ride isn’t really getting any training but is just being used as a conveyance, this is cutting corners. If the horse needing the training ride is getting the attention it deserves, then the student is not. Breaks are another matter.

[TwoSweetPeas]

I pay for “60 minute” training rides a couple times a month but the ride is sometimes 45, or sometimes even 30 minutes, depending on my horse’s needs that day. I’m present for probably about half my training rides.

I am very glad that my trainer’s knowledge and our communication allow her to be comfortable ending a ride “early” when that is in my horse’s best interests. Sometimes she ends before 60 min because the mare did brilliantly with an exercise and there is nothing to be gained by pushing for more that day. Sometimes she ends before 60 min because the mare fried her brain over something stupid and we both know that the best thing for the mare’s brain (not all horses, but hers) is to get some stretchy trot and call it a day so that we can start fresh and happy next time.

I can always tell the next time I am on my horse if her last ride was a training ride, even after “short” rides.

[JLR1]

I should be clear since there are those who know me IRL…I don’t have a horse in full training, and my current coach who I lesson with is by far the most ethical and honest trainer I have ever dealt with. She trains each horse with the same attention as if the owner was present…that includes not carrying her cellphone and stop every few minutes to text or check her Facebook. ;)I board at a large multidiscipline facility and have friends at other multi-trainer facilities and we were comparing notes about discrepancies we observed between trainer riding when the owner is present versus absent. Interesting discussion and I wanted to hear what COTH opinions were.

As for me I would expect my horse to be properly warmed up for 10 minutes and a minimum of 20 minutes of work specific to the level we are schooling and 5 minute cool down.

[MtnDrmz]

@TrailRides4Fun;8589828

I think when a ‘trainer’ charges by the hour,
they need to justify that hour of time to the paying client (ME).
Do I think my horse needs a full hour of riding, not necessarily,
BUT, I expect a good 50-55 minutes of that person’s time, especially if those are their terms, and how they charge for their time.

To get back to the OG poster’s question, they asked about training rides when the horse in is Partial or Full training. In this case the owner is NOT paying “by the hour”, it’s a totally different model. Even for a one off training ride, I do not know any trainers who have ride rates, “per hour”. Lessons are usually aimed at a timed amount, give or take a few, but rides are usually “Rides”. This means a lot of different things when someone is in full or partial training. Sometimes it does just mean a hack. Sometimes it means a serious school, sometimes to means ground manners, and other times it means a good solid fitness session. When you are in training it is just that, training, and it must vary according to the horse that day.

[Velvet]

[QUOTE=TrailRides4Fun;8589855]
Velvet, I stand by MY statement to you.
You are dissecting my comments in order to be bit@hy.

Stop ‘over-analyzing’ so you can justify an excuse to go on the attack.
Grow up! :yes:[/QUOTE]

:sigh: You need to stop listening to your inner “bitchy” voice. I’m stating facts. You are woefully ignorant. I simply stated that you are not the sort of person any real trainer would WANT TO WORK for because you are ignorant in what it takes to properly train a dressage horse, and instead repeatedly state that you are the employer and that you must be given an hour of the trainers time on your horse, no matter what the circumstances.

I’m done. You can’t teach some people–which is pretty much proving my point.

[Velvet]

[QUOTE=MtnDrmz;8590380]
To get back to the OG poster’s question, they asked about training rides when the horse in is Partial or Full training. In this case the owner is NOT paying “by the hour”, it’s a totally different model. Even for a one off training ride, I do not know any trainers who have ride rates, “per hour”. Lessons are usually aimed at a timed amount, give or take a few, but rides are usually “Rides”. This means a lot of different things when someone is in full or partial training. Sometimes it does just mean a hack. Sometimes it means a serious school, sometimes to means ground manners, and other times it means a good solid fitness session. When you are in training it is just that, training, and it must vary according to the horse that day.[/QUOTE]

^^ THIS!!!^^

[TrailRides4Fun]

[QUOTE=Velvet;8590725]
:sigh: You need to stop listening to your inner “bitchy” voice. I’m stating facts. You are woefully ignorant. I simply stated that you are not the sort of person any real trainer would WANT TO WORK for because you are ignorant in what it takes to properly train a dressage horse, and instead repeatedly state that you are the employer and that you must be given an hour of the trainers time on your horse, no matter what the circumstances.

I’m done. You can’t teach some people–which is pretty much proving my point.[/QUOTE]
Thank goodness you’re DONE :yes:
Thats a real relief :lol:
You have some weird NEED to lecture someone that you don’t even know,
via YOUR complete inability to comprehend their words.
Oddly, you somehow think you know my mind and thoughts - completely :no:
Anyone who has such a pathetic need to ‘over analyze’ in their quest to ‘fault find’
really should keep a blog and channel that self righteous attitude to a private place.

Given you’ve assumed, lectured, and deemed whatever you see as right,
And are DONE,., I can now safely respond without YOUR further misunderstanding.
Shoooo, what a relief! :lol: