Training: "stick" direct confrontation verses "carrot" subversion

[stock]

I wanted to seek advice as to if the approach I take with my two horses is bad and should be modified. TLDR: I tend to not confront them directly but instead subversively modify their behavior.

The general idea is that rather than directly confront them on a negative behavior, instead I get them to accomplish the goal via a sideways approach that circumvents the negative. Ive noticed some trainers being much more direct and want to understand if I am creating issues further down the line and need to modify my approach.

Some examples:

My 9 yo TB gelding is an exceptional stubborn, brilliant, mule like fellow. Only in the last year have I owned a trailer, so he is learning to load now. Initially, as he is very stoic, he entertained the idea, but then simply shut down and refused to take a further step-this is his MO-freezing and refusing. After about 45 min of him refusing to take another step, I ceased for the day. I moved the trailer in the pasture and began feeding him in it. On day one, his food was on the ramp, then moved slightly everyday. He is very clever, so at first he would grab his dish and pull out of the trailer, so I instead placed the food directly on the floor. After two weeks, he completely enters the trailer, eats his food and we seem to have overcome his resistance and likes to stand in it to get out of the rain.

Under saddle, he can be good, but he can also be quite stubborn and even petulant. When I note he is frustrated, I simply stop and we sit for a about thirty seconds and I tell him he is a good boy. Basically giving him some decompression time so he doesnt hold a grudge, then we start again, rather than try and fight through the frustration.

The trainers who have worked with him previously would not cease, but rather insist. His response would be to first become very frustrated, then throw a temper tantrum with sweating, head tossing and even striking out, then eventually comply. But it didnt seem to stick, if that makes any sense, as the next time you asked him to do the same thing, he would be as resistant as before. He holds grudges.

Another example with a mare I was given.

She also would move away from the mounting block and refuse to stand by taking two steps back over and over again. Once I realized this, I pivoted her butt to the gelding so she couldnt back up anymore, then mounted easily.

Under saddle she simply refused to move. I gave her a bit more leg pressure and she just stiffened. Instead I began asking her to weave back and forth, using gentle rein pressure on each side until her balance shifted and she had to move a step or two. After a few rounds of this she moved out, with some tail swishing of course.

The second time I rode her she bucked me off. We did a bit of ground work and I got back on, then when she went to lower her head and buck again, I didnt punish her, bust simply very calmly held her head a bit high so it wasnt really an option. Then I asked her to walk in circles for awhile, with lots of turns of direction, keeping her attention with leg and soft rein, until she began to relax and wasnt interested in bucking anymore.

Everyday with her she has a new “button” she pushes, as she is a naughty pony mare, but in each case rather than face her head on, I just sort of divert her attention and move her forward into the direction I want her to go.

I recently read that at times it is valuable to push through these situations with horses and demand compliance, rather than be subversive, so I wanted to seek feedback and further education in this area.

[SuzieQNutter]

Every horse is different and you will learn from every horse, which it sounds like you are doing.

You can use feed to ask a horse in a float. The way you did it the horse is also making the decision to back out. It is better to feed him in there and you be the one to back him out.

For a horse to load okay and then not. It is because of something like hay flying around their head, a wire rattling near their head or the terrible driving, so that needs to be addressed.

The horses that won’t go forward and then will may be cold backed. They are happier when their back and girth have warmed up. So change your tacking up so that it let’s them warm up to the saddle and girth. Let them warm up under saddle before asking for more.

With the naughty pony they are trying to get you out of position so as you are ineffective. Your goal is to stay in the correct position and ask again. Reward when they are correct. Use good girl and give the inside rein, you can also scratch and stroke, don’t pat, the timing is the key so you are rewarding when they are thinking the correct response and you will end up with horses who try their heart out for you.

[MyKindaFlower]

Well, OP, I would first say that there are many roads to China and no one road is right or wrong. Would I handle it exactly as you are, no, probably not. But I am not you and your horses are not my horses.

My first concern with the mare would be why was she given away - behavior, soundness issues, or just needed a good home? That would be a factor in how I approached things with her. I would also double check my goals vs. the reasons that she was a giveaway. The second would be whether she is hurting somewhere - I would be inclined to look first at ulcers and back pain/discomfort (checking fit of saddle as well as looking for visible tenderness along her spine).

With the gelding, I don’t really think that horses tend to hold a grudge so much as some learn at different speeds, and prefer different approaches as compared to others. If he was making no progress with multiple trainers, I would be concerned about why that is. One trainer ='s wrong approach or maybe just a bad fit perhaps. But multiple trainers would ring my alarm bells a bit. Again, when behavior is an issue, I try to consider the potential physical causes first. Does he shut down because he is uncomfortable? Or is he shutting down out of confusion? Something else?

I’ve heard of the feeding in a trailer approach and I would possibly go that route with a horse that associated the trailer with trauma, injury, or overly rough handling. For most, I wold probably try other avenues first, so long as things did not escalate into a fight.

For instance, my historically grumpy fella is much less grumpy once we figured out that he had PSSM. He had only subtle symptoms and so he went undiagnosed for about 12 years (I take full responsibility for that). On a high fat diet and in regulator work, he’s as happy as a can be. Now that we’ve been sidelined by the most humid/rainy summer we’ve ever had, followed by a relentlessly muddy fall and now rock hard, frozen ground, his temperament is a bit more unpredictable. That does not mean he gets a pass from me. He can grump. He can pin his ears and swish his tail. He can even turn his head in the other direction and chomp his teeth. He CANNOT bite me, point his muzzle in my direction and bite the air, lift a leg and threaten to kick in any way, or even paw next to me. He is not afraid of me but he knows that all of those actions will result in a stern, “NO!” and a smack with either a crop or my open palm. Neither cause him any physical pain but he still flinches, lowers his head, and ceases the behavior. Actually, he usually does all of those things a fraction of a second before I deliver the smack. My vet, farrier, and trainer all consider how he is treated to be entirely acceptable.

It can depend on the individual horse as well. My retired dun gelding is highly reactive. The same open handed smack on grumpy fellas flank would send dun horse into a heap on the floor. Usually, a stern, “QUIT,” is completely enough.

I approach my mare a bit different than the other two. She is generally sweet and compliant now - although the mare does come out on occasion and so I know never to draw a line in the sand that I can’t carry through on. When I first got her, she kicked, bit, did not tie (ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, ANYHOW), and could barely be groomed. She also was extremely food aggressive - as the scar on my arm will attest to. Most people would never guess that about her now. She is gentle, affectionate, and is completely fine with having me near her while she is eating. But that took time, consistency, firmness, and fairness.

[cutter99]

At my farm, I ask nicely once, then I insist. It is my way or the highway, and I can usually get things done without too much trouble.

I don’t play games with 1,000 lb. horses. I take exceptional care of them, and I expect them to listen to me when I ask for something. I am the alpha always.

[S1969]

@stock

I wanted to seek advice as to if the approach I take with my two horses is bad and should be modified. TLDR: I tend to not confront them directly but instead subversively modify their behavior.

You’re not subversively modifying their behavior, you’re using different methods. There are 4 quadrants of operative conditioning and all are useful depending on the task to be taught - positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punishment.

In my opinion, only idiots choose a single quadrant and try to make it work for everything. Or, they are actually using the other quadrants but telling themselves they are only using “positive reinforcement” when they aren’t.

Every horse and every task is different. And every reason for refusal is unique. A horse being unsure/untrained is different than afraid from a bad experience, and the method to go forward should be modified to consider the possible reason(s) for refusal.

[Caol_Ila]

I would much rather find a way to address a problem laterally than have a direct confrontation with the horse over something, though occasionally, you have to deal with the confrontation. My view is that horses (and everyone else) learns far more effectively when they are relaxed, and once the animal is in a state where it’s stressed and fighting you, it’s not in a learning frame of mind. I’d rather not get it to that state. I also approach things with the point of view that the horse doesn’t really know what you intended to do that day. So, let’s say I wanted to go on a long hack by myself, but the horse starts spooking or balking once he’s realised he’s on his own. Instead of battling straight through it, I will go on a short distance, but only head for home the moment the horse is sort of paying attention to me. Even if his attention is on me and he’s thinking of relaxing for three seconds, that’s my opportunity to turn around. The horse has no clue that I wanted to go on an hour-long hack. All he knows is that the moment he thought about listening to me, I turned him back home, Gradually, we will get further and further from the barn.

Clearly every horse and every exact situation is different, but that’s a rough approximation of what I’m likely to do. So say, when my Shire-X mare, usually happy to go out on her own, planted her feet and refused to walk up a trail in Colorado for love nor money, and kept trying to wheel around, I had a brief discussion, but then ‘let her get away with it,’ because I knew the horse and thought something must be up. It was… a mountain lion sighting in that area was reported the following day! Another time, here in Scotland, I fought through my horse’s objections to continuing up a trail and then stumbled into some teenagers setting a car on fire. Whoops! Should have listened to the horse, who has taken a dim view of riding that particular trail ever since.

Or another example… I was putting some training on a very green Welsh D for someone, and the little mare, among other things, would stop steering and would just throw on the anchors, toss her head, and spin 180s in the arena. Even in walk. Any gait. At first I took the direct approach, leg on, then off and quiet when she was behaving, then pressure on when she was throwing a tantrum. After a quite a few sessions, we weren’t really anywhere and the mare wasn’t changing her view that being ridden was the worst thing, ever. So I started long-reining her. Around we went in the long reins, and she was soft, willing, forward, and relaxed. She was an ex-broodmare who had gone straight into a riding school (I know…right), before my friend got her, and it was obvious that she’d been rushed half-assedly through the basics, and her ‘misbehaviour’ came from a fuzzy and insecure understanding of what she was supposed to be doing. A month on the long reins, and then I got back on board, and it was like a different horse. Her whole attitude had changed and she was willing and eager to work with the humans.

I think it’s humans, not horses, that percieve things as ‘winning’ and ‘losing’ but it is complicated. If you ask the horse for something and he says no, you are taught that you have to make him or he’ll take advantage and his behaviour will worsen. Once you start the fight, you have to finish it. I don’t disagree with this but I’d rather sidestep that situation as much as possible because in my experience, the animal won’t percieve it so much as a matter of ‘winning’ and ‘losing,’ but rather associate the whole situation with stress and learned helplessness.

[MsM]

It sounds like your way: #1 Keeps you safe and #2 Does not make things worse. Not a bad start!

I think you will do better in this direction than starting a confrontation that you are not equipped to win. Of course it has its limits. You cant skirt every issue all the time or you will find yourself doing only that! Personally, I think you will have to “confront” some smaller issues that can be worked through safely. I doubt, for example, that the horse will now load willingly. You know that he is comfortable being in the trailer. You still must address the leading issue. There are lots of strategies for this short of total confrontation that will help get him loading calmly. Best of luck!

[chestnutmarebeware]

For me, it depends on the horse. Of my three, Rosie’s brain just exits stage right once she gets worked up about something, so it’s easier and more productive to work through issues in a sideways manner that keeps everyone calm.

Cat, on the other hand, is both a delicate flower (physically) and a big girl that long ago learned that she’s bigger than people and will press the advantage shamelessly. She responds better to a strong “I am the boss here and you will behave NOW!” reaction.

Bo, is the most compliant and easy-going of the three girls (and the only non-chestnut mare—coincidence? I think not! :D) and generally goes along to get along, so working with her is generally easy.

[NoSuchPerson]

@S1969

You’re not subversively modifying their behavior, you’re using different methods. There are 4 quadrants of operative conditioning and all are useful depending on the task to be taught - positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punishment.

In my opinion, only idiots choose a single quadrant and try to make it work for everything. Or, they are actually using the other quadrants but telling themselves they are only using “positive reinforcement” when they aren’t.

Every horse and every task is different. And every reason for refusal is unique. A horse being unsure/untrained is different than afraid from a bad experience, and the method to go forward should be modified to consider the possible reason(s) for refusal.

Well, I was going to reply until I read this response. Now I’ll just say, “Yes. This.”

[Twigster]

@S1969

You’re not subversively modifying their behavior, you’re using different methods. There are 4 quadrants of operative conditioning and all are useful depending on the task to be taught - positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punishment.

In my opinion, only idiots choose a single quadrant and try to make it work for everything. Or, they are actually using the other quadrants but telling themselves they are only using “positive reinforcement” when they aren’t.

Every horse and every task is different. And every reason for refusal is unique. A horse being unsure/untrained is different than afraid from a bad experience, and the method to go forward should be modified to consider the possible reason(s) for refusal.

I also came here to say this, but S1969 put it quite nicely already.

The classical way to train horses under saddle is -R, and I try to be very thoughtful in my application. On the ground, I choose to operate as much as possible with +R because it has been shown to be a very effective way to train animals from dogs to dolphins. That doesn’t mean that any other method is off the table, but it does mean I try to be very deliberate about what I am doing and why.

[fordtraktor]

I hope that trailer was hooked to a vehicle in your pasture. Never load a horse on an unhitched trailer.

[candyappy]

@fordtraktor

I hope that trailer was hooked to a vehicle in your pasture. Never load a horse on an unhitched trailer.

If you put large concrete blocks under the front part ( both sides) to support the weight off the hitch, put blocks under the back where they step on and put concrete blocks in front and back of all tires you most certainly can.

OP – there are many ways to train and get the results you want. Patience, time and giving the horse clear directions so they know what you are asking is always preferable to force. Sometimes discipline is needed, so knowing when is the key.

[alibi_18]

@stock

I wanted to seek advice as to if the approach I take with my two horses is bad and should be modified. TLDR: I tend to not confront them directly but instead subversively modify their behavior.

The general idea is that rather than directly confront them on a negative behavior, instead I get them to accomplish the goal via a sideways approach that circumvents the negative. Ive noticed some trainers being much more direct and want to understand if I am creating issues further down the line and need to modify my approach.

From your examples:

Is your TB now loading by following you, being led into or self loading?

Your horse can now eat and stay aboard, but it might not have solved the loading problem because you haven’t worked on the leading issue.

Horses are not stubborn. You are just not skilled/knowledgeable yet to address the root of the issue.

BTDT. You don’t fix a something if you are not addressing the whole problem.

Is it a pain issue? A fear issue? A loading issue? A leading issue?

I’ve had horses eat and live in trailers… some still wouldn’t load. They had various reasons not to do so and each issue was addressed accordingly.

But not confronting the issue never worked on the long term. As a side note, bribing is the worst way to circumvent an issue.

As for the undersaddle issues, if there was seemingly no progress toward increased good behavior periods, I think the problem might lie in ways trainers addressed the moments after your TB complied as well as how/why the temper tantrum started.

Was this horse fully vetted?

She also would move away from the mounting block and refuse to stand by taking two steps back over and over again. Once I realized this, I pivoted her butt to the gelding so she couldnt back up anymore, then mounted easily.

But you are not addressing the problem.
What if there was nothing to block her from backing up?

And just wait until she finds a new way not to listen. Horses are creative.

Under saddle she simply refused to move. I gave her a bit more leg pressure and she just stiffened. Instead I began asking her to weave back and forth, using gentle rein pressure on each side until her balance shifted and she had to move a step or two. After a few rounds of this she moved out, with some tail swishing of course.

The second time I rode her she bucked me off. We did a bit of ground work and I got back on, then when she went to lower her head and buck again, I didnt punish her, bust simply very calmly held her head a bit high so it wasnt really an option. Then I asked her to walk in circles for awhile, with lots of turns of direction, keeping her attention with leg and soft rein, until she began to relax and wasnt interested in bucking anymore.

Everyday with her she has a new “button” she pushes, as she is a naughty pony mare, but in each case rather than face her head on, I just sort of divert her attention and move her forward into the direction I want her to go.

I recently read that at times it is valuable to push through these situations with horses and demand compliance, rather than be subversive, so I wanted to seek feedback and further education in this area.

Was this mare thoroughly vetted?
Why was she given away?

Horses are not naughty. They react for reasons, sometimes we just don’t understand why.

What will you do when one day there won’t be ways to « divert » her attention.

Going through an issue is important.
The thing is, it’s not fair to push through if the horse is in pain.

I had a TB in training who started bucking at the canter undersaddle only. Owner had tried pushing through but it wasn’t working. Ground work was ineffective.
Had the vet come over, happened the horse had a huge yet paper thin hematoma over its whole left rump. Waited 3 weeks, reassessed and got the Ok from the vet.
Horse was fearfull of being in pain again and so was still bucking but, I worked through it until the horse realized there was no pain cantering. It took 3 rides but he never bucked after.
If I hadn’t pushed through, it would still be bucking.

To successfully train a horse, you need to know what you are doing. You need to be fair and clear in your training methods.
You need to set up your horse for success by not overfacing it.

But, IMMHO, you cannot pretend training a horse by never confronting issues that are rising through.

[anon6003733]

Non compliance usually results in a little extra work around here. All of ours are trained to ‘circle’, which would be the quick go-to for a situation such as not wanting to load or not standing at a mounting block. No fuss, no forcing, no hard feelings and most importantly no drama. Just a bit of boring exercise.

Works a charm, especially when they know the drill :rolleyes:

[phoebetrainer]

I think that saying “when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change” could be useful here. If you change the language you use, you may well begin to see different behaviour. Horses aren’t stubborn, petulant, they don’t refuse to do things, they don’t hold a grudge and they aren’t naughty. They are untrained in the ways that we want them to be trained. A pony who puts its head down to grab grass when it’s being ridden, isn’t naughty - it’s learnt that it is allowed to do this and is rewarded by the mouthful of grass. Go back over your post and change some of the statements to reflect how the horse has been trained to act that way. This might give you greater insight into the training that you need to put in so your horses are trained to do the things you want them to do.

[mvp]

I think modifying behavior by your indirect “subversive” methods are fine so far as they go.

You should know that I don’t mind confrontation and I also think it is profoundly unsafe to sit on a 1,200 animal at his invitation. That bit of contexts informs how I think about confrontation or not my relationship with a horse.

I’d be up for you modifying your horse’s behavior anyway that gets the job done IF you also create the correct understanding in the horse that, really, he will/must submit to your request. So those of us who don’t mind getting into a bit of a discussion about “who’s the boss” just want to have a quicker discussion about the horse’s need to do as we ask. But out-waiting a horse or finding another way to get done what you want is fine so long as you do get there.

I did have a mare who had a trailer-loading problem made worse someone trying (and failing) to use force to put her in there. I did the old, “I’ll feed you in here… whenever you get hungry enough” technique. So I set up the situation and decided to make her hunger her problem. Not only did it work, but I didn’t have to plan to out-wait her forever. If I set up the same ritual (hungry or not) where the mare was invited into the trailer and I got into my quiet-but-implacable “I have all day, horse, how long do you have?” way of handling her, loading took 5 minutes.

And later on, it took no special preparation or me doing it because two things had happened. 1. She learned that she had to submit to her handler’s request. Just saying “No, I donwanna” was not an option that ever paid off the way she wanted. 2. (And this is important, too) because I had produced the relationship between us that allowed me to safely, fairly and reliably press this mare to at try at things she didn’t want to do or which scared her, I had a basis for enlarging her world and her confidence. So the horse who cannot accept pressure because he has not been taught to gets his way, but he has a small life and he can remain timid.

But you can see how I think about this situation. I don’t care how I get some point made with a horse, but if the horse decides to check on the power relationship between us-- I mean, he really asks if he’s got to do as I say-- I will make sure he satisfies himself that the answer is that I am the alpha mare in his heard. I don’t go raising that question. Rather, the horse, in the process of me making request will, sooner or later, ask the more basic, existential question about why he’s got to try to please me at all. Meh, no big deal. That’s a fair and reasonable thing. So the way I answer it doesn’t have to be “confrontational” and it can involve earning the horse’s trust. To be an alpha mare, you need both power and credibility.

But I have to confess that I would not be happy nor comfortable sitting on a horse who was irritated enough by me that she was refusing to go forward and striking the ground. If I don’t back down, I could see a horse like that rearing because, to him, I didn’t see and respect his warning to me. So anyone talking about finding a “work around” for a horse who is actively frustrated or even “petulant” has a larger problem than the behavior itself. To me, that emotional state in the horse is the bigger problem.

[fordtraktor]

@candyappy

If you put large concrete blocks under the front part ( both sides) to support the weight off the hitch and put concrete blocks in front and back of all tires you most certainly can.

OP – there are many ways to train and get the results you want. Patience, time and giving the horse clear directions so they know what you are asking is always preferable to force. Sometimes discipline is needed, so knowing when is the key.

Rolling is not the only concern. They can also tip. It is just a bad idea.

[S1969]

@fordtraktor

Rolling is not the only concern. They can also tip. It is just a bad idea.

Definitely depends on the size of the trailer. My little 2H Featherlite is very unstable without being hitched; my trainer’s big, heavy 4 horse slant load is a different beast altogether.

[candyappy]

@fordtraktor

Rolling is not the only concern. They can also tip. It is just a bad idea.

I forgot to mention putting concrete blocks under the back too. So the trailer is literally sitting on blocks. I’ve done this with a 2 horse bumper pull and my 16 foot stock trailer . It never moves at all and is more stable than when hitched to a truck. The key is single concrete blocks so no instability.

So much easier when you are working on trailer loading. It is a pain to hitch and unhitch every day.

[TMares]

With regard to the gelding, does he now load on the trailer when you ask him to?

I think what strikes me about your post is the word confront. I don’t like to have confrontations with horses, but I do like to have very clear communications and lots of praise wherever it’s possible.

So if I have a horse who seems hesitant about loading, I’m going to work on making sure that he leads very well and is very compliant in hand all over the place, because to my mind a loading problem is often and obedience in hand and a leading problem. Throwing some food in the bottom of the floor and letting him figure out he can go in there and get it does not in any way solve a hesitancy to load problem.

With regard to the mare we don’t know enough about her backstory to know if she’s just figured out how to take advantage of children, or what her story is. Assuming she’s a bit rotten around the edges, she would be learning to be a good citizen in hand. I feel like you are perhaps largely accommodating these horses rather than training them. now what you did with the mare when she didn’t want to move off, well that’s not a bad approach …I think I might have tipped her head and held it there until she decided to move her feet rather than taking it back and forth but maybe that’s splitting a hair. Her refusing to stand at the mounting block though? Oh no… her but was going to get back by the mounting block. … not with a bunch of dust and fussing, but with deliberate effort on my part to say actually, I need you to be right here.

In my experience good horsemanship is good leadership, and it’s not leadership when you move the meeting because somebody refuses to sit in a particular chair, or feed them a snickers in hopes they’ll work on a project.