Training the 3 year old

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I’ll add another opinion for the OP…I think a lot depends on the particular horse, my time and the weather.

I usually like to at least sit on them at 2.5. Teach them about wearing tack and back them (that is about 1-2 weeks worth of work total). I pony them out on trail rides when the weather is nice and footing good. Usually mostly just walking but I cross water and go up and down hills. I might do an in-hand show or two…depending on my time and what they look like! If I do back them, it is just to the point that I feel I can get on (from a mounting block) and walk/ maybe trot a little and start the basic steering (at the walk). But if I don’t have time to back them or they don’t seem ready…no worries.

Summer of 3 year old I usually have started them. They will still be getting ponied all over the place and perhaps a few in hand shows or shows to just hang out. I’m rarely in the ring for more than a week before going out on the first hack. I don’t really want to do ring work with a 3 year old…I want them to have enough steering that I have a bit of control (although not total) and then spend most of the time out walking and troting on trail rides. I will get them to WTC under saddle and step over/jump some baby baby things. But how much they really get worked will depend on what else I have to ride/do. Most of the time they will just get ponied out and about.

They will get some time off in the winter. Real training doesn’t start until they are 4 and even then…it depends. If they are not mature…more time will be spent out on the trails. And even still…I will spend as much time out of the ring as I can.

But I’m starting my own horses for myself…not for sale. And I’m starting them with a goal of making event horses…so what I focus on and care about may be different than for other people. I haven’t had one that was ready to do the YEH-4year olds–at least not at the ones in the begining of the year which is all that has been near me. But all were fine for the YEH-5 divisions.

[DMK]

Yes, I like some diversity for the young horse. I’ve sort of slipped into a pattern of Monday off, Tuesday is a long walk down the road, with maybe a 100 yard grassy stretch of trotting, but usually just a 3 mile toodle down to the end of our road and back (and we pass the COWZ!!! :eek: and the BULL!!! :eek: :eek: for a moment of terror each way) - the primary purpose is to for him to get to see other places than his ring/pasture/barn and for me to know that he can go after 1 to 4 days off and walk down the road on a loose rein straight out of the stall, no prepr work, no lunging or so on. Wed is in the ring for a little WTC followed walking a path around the farm that has some incline/decline - really this isn’t a work, it’s more like a reconnect with his brain session. Thursday is another off day and generally Fri/Sat/Sun is a 3 days of work. Sometimes I use those 3 continuous days to learn a new behavior (he picks up on new things fast and retains them very well), sometimes a little ring work followed by a hack down the road and sometimes an off farm trail ride.

They can surprise you so much with their physical abilities. He always had a nice canter, very balanced and rythmical, but of course when I started him it was still a baby canter - a little to fast and strung out for finished horse (to be expected). I had it in my head it would be 6 months before I bothered with much more than stabilizing the rhythm and just making sure he was level. Honestly, that took about 2 weeks (5 rides, tops). But no worries, I wasn’t really going to change anything. I’m not in a rush and if you take your time on the basics, the next steps come fast. Hah! about 6 weeks into starting him I get on him and here’s this lovely in front of the leg easy canter with a ton of step. Never asked for it, it just appeared. Dream canter! But you know how it goes with babies. They show you that flash of brilliance one day and then it disappears for 4 months while you try to recreate it. So my expectations were firmly in line: great canter, enjoy it today, it will be gone tomorrow and no, you can’t go looking for it for a while.

That great canter came and never left. He just figured it was time to do it and I don’t know that I had anything to do with it other than the good sense to not mess with this horse’s natural talent.

[NeddyDevine]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;5113338]
How do you find these people??[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is a case of Like gravitating to Like?

[Moderator_1]

We removed a tangent from the thread to keep things focused on the original topic and avoid getting into accusations against various people.

Folks obviously have to judge whose input they value when gleaning information from the Internet. Feel free to utilize the PM system for commentary not appropriate for the public forum.

Thanks,
Mod 1

[Perfect_Pony]

@Moderator 1;5113580

We removed a tangent from the thread to keep things focused on the original topic and avoid getting into accusations against various people.

Folks obviously have to judge whose input they value when gleaning information from the Internet. Feel free to utilize the PM system for commentary not appropriate for the public forum.

Thanks,
Mod 1

Wow, now I know why I never see these crooks and shysters outed on the COTH forums!

Certainly, buyer beware! For others horse shopping, what you read on here by and about certain breeders and owners, please do your own independent research and dig, dig, dig. People are not always what they appear to be. I may be an opinionated PITA, but I can assure you I don’t make things up and I call it like I see it.

[WBLover]

I am usually of the introducing tack the fall of 2yo year, maybe some LIGHT lunging if they aren’t very late babies and not too gawky.

Then back them at 3yo birthday, ride 3 days per week through fall. Then winter off if the horse is exceptionally growthy or needs a mental break. Or just light riding through winter if they are doing okay.

Then spring of 4yo year start up lightly at first and gradually increase to 4 days/week of more serious work.

My new horse just got started this June and he turned 4 in May. He’s got an excellent work ethic and his attitude completely changed from mr. goofball to mr. serious when he’s under saddle, according to his breeder. So I don’t know if starting them later is bad for the work ethic or not, in this guy’s case it seems not, but time will tell. But he is still VERY growthy, so it’s probably good he was started later, and I think even at 4 we are going to have to take it slower than normal. He can barely canter in a circle, he’s all legs! I’ve got my work cut out for me, but in my price range all I could afford was raw talent and not something already going solid, and he’s got a good brain!

[saje]

@Perfect Pony;5113656

People are not always what they appear to be.

This is pretty much a no schitt sherlock statement.

It also applies to ANYONE who posts their knowledge or experience or training regimes on the internet.

Unless I have real life experience with someone, I take a good 90% of what they post with a hefty grain of salt.

[Oldenburg_Mom]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;5113656]
…what you read on here by and about certain breeders and owners, please do your own independent research and dig, dig, dig. People are not always what they appear to be. [/QUOTE]

And boy, to certain names come to mind…my fingers are just itching :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Having said THAT, I’m glad none of my critters are for sale. I know how they’re treated at home. And whether you agree with starting at three, four, five, six or seven … well, for me, everyone is healthy and sound. And HAPPY.

'nuff said.

[dianehalpin]

Like 3Dogs, I also like to ride mine crosscountry. I like working up gentle slopes. My own experience with the footing in some, but not all, rings is that it slides under the horse’s feet as they move and gives in such a way that I’m not sure that a lot of sand-based rings promote soundness with long-term use, especially in a developing youngster. I know this is not true for all rings but I’ve felt it in ring footing often enough to prefer turf. I also start mine at three but lightly and for brief rides and no more than a few times a week.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Oldenburg Mom;5114379]
And boy, to certain names come to mind…my fingers are just itching :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

.[/QUOTE]

Have at it.

[FjordBCRF]

I’m pulling this thread up as reading through the comments was helpful for me already, but I do have some questions of my own.

Charlie three and a half this month; I bought him mid July of this year. Before he came to me, he had been broke to ride earlier this year (all trail riding after he was broke) and was broke to drive. He would do some like cart pulling from time to time with his old owner.

Fjords, like all draft breeds take a longer time to finish developing (5ish) with their bone plates still fusing. With that in mind, I have kept riding light and mostly to trails, mostly walking, a little trotting and sometimes a very short canter. We do some arena work; basic manners…mostly at the walk with a little trotting. Mentally, he acts very mature which I think can deceive the physical maturity or lack their of. We have been riding approximatly 3X a week, if we do 4 rides, at least one will be a 20 min arena session.

I started working with a dressage trainer about a month ago, and as such, have asked for more canter transitions in the arena. He very clearly and expectedly lacks balance at the canter (trots like crazy into it); and after my last lesson my gut says to wait until he is at least 4 (April 2021) or 4.5 to really start working on that.

I unfortunately have the experience of riding a percheron/TB cross for a number of years that became arthritic much earlier than we would have guessed and he was retired. I do not want that for my guy. As we are going into winter, we start fighting against daylight, rain, cold, ice etc which limits riding time. 2-3 times a week would probably be the most we are looking at on a good week once daylight savings time hits.

My questions for you folks are as follows! Clearly the AGE piece here is far more subjective physical maturity. With physical maturity in mind, I would like to learn more about what type/intensity of work is detrimental to development at this age? Is riding trails lightly too much (2-4 miles; 4 miles takes us about an hour, hour twenty mins)? Is 20 mins of walk/trot work in a sand arena too much? (I keep those sessions pretty short). I have read that many Fjord owners (and horse owners generally) will pony their young ones on trails quite a bit. I am 130lbs and my saddle is a wintec lite, so its about 10 lbs total so he has a 140 lb backpack to carry around. Our winter plan is to haul into the trainers barn a couple times a month, keep our lessons to more of the hauling in experience, walk trot basics/groundwork this winter. I would LOVE to teach him to bow/lie down and some trick type stuff and already do a lot of showmanship type groundwork with him.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

ALL breeds of horses are still growing through 5 or 6…it really isn’t different. What really will be different from horse to horse is their mental maturity. I really really really don’t like riding my 3 year olds more than 30-40 minutes even on trails and usually keep it well under that. And most of the time, I limit ring work to 10-15 min. I don’t like them doing small circles as that is harder on the joints. Most of the work is at the walk and trot but I will canter some. I have 2 three year olds right now (sold my third one). One is so good. She can have 5 days off and I can just get right on her and she is right where we left off. Loves having a job. So for her…while her steering isn’t always great and the brakes go out…she is not worked more than 3-4 times a week and often less (she usually gets 3-4 days off, worked for 2-3 days, 3-4 days off). She will get a winter break too. The other 3 year old has no work ethic whatsoever and a massive opinion that is often expressed on her hind legs. So she will stay in more consistent work. Again…short works and the idea is to get out of the ring as much as possible but she is a tougher horse and we need the work ethic and forward button instilled now. I do think she will be a good horse but in this phase its important to keep very good riders with her and not have her learn bad habits…asking her questions she can answer but also learning that she does have to work with us. She is ONLY 3 so she doesn’t need lots of wet saddle pads and run off her feet in small circles. Some horses hit this phase at 4 or 5…some never do and are easy and good all the time. There is NO exact method. And unfortunately…some horses, just because of the conformation…may have soundness issues even if you did nothing with them. I think you just have to use common sense and good judgment. Listen to your horse…if they are easy…control yourself and do not ask too much of them. If they are tougher…be more consistent but not longer/harder on them. And always remind yourself…you have lots of time. Keep things simple, keep things clear and keep your expectations lower for a young horse and you will be fine.

[exvet]

I have bred and produced welsh cobs for more than a few years. I usually start/back them late into their third year. Once I establish that they have whoa, go and steer I hit the trails. We’ll ride up to an hour on the trail depending the difficulty of terrain and I might occasionally ride in the arena just to establish ideas/concepts of straightness and better balance but I don’t really school or start working on specific exercises appropriate for their level of balance and maturity until they’re a solid 4. At that time I will still only work them 3 and towards the end of their 4th year build up to 4 times a week. Trail riding is still a key component of their development at that time. By the time they are 5 they usually can walk, trot and at least canter in both directions but the individual has dictated how much canter work I feel is appropriate for them. Some have had more difficulty with it and I’ve had to shelve it more or less until their 5th/6th year. I do only enough lunge work for them to know how to do it. I prefer to long line more and do the majority of our ground work in hand at a walk or trot, occasionally asking for canter when appropriate. I don’t think you can over do the in hand work in terms of teaching them to accept obstacles, learn tricks or just learn obedience as long as we’re not talking drilling on the circle. What you propose seems more than reasonable. Several of the ones I’ve produced are still working and/or competing well into their late teens (dressage, competitive trail and team penning/working western activities and 20s (prix st george).

[JB]

@Fjordboycharlie

Fjords, like all draft breeds take a longer time to finish developing (5ish) with their bone plates still fusing.

Horses as a species mature at roughly the same rate in terms of growth plate calcification. The taller horses take a bit longer than shorter ones, but the minimum ages are still pretty much the same. A 17h WB or TB is going to take a bit longer than a 15h horse of any breed

With that in mind, I have kept riding light and mostly to trails, mostly walking, a little trotting and sometimes a very short canter. We do some arena work; basic manners…mostly at the walk with a little trotting. Mentally, he acts very mature which I think can deceive the physical maturity or lack their of. We have been riding approximatly 3X a week, if we do 4 rides, at least one will be a 20 min arena session.

Sounds perfect for his age

I started working with a dressage trainer about a month ago, and as such, have asked for more canter transitions in the arena. He very clearly and expectedly lacks balance at the canter (trots like crazy into it); and after my last lesson my gut says to wait until he is at least 4 (April 2021) or 4.5 to really start working on that.

Find a new trainer. He has no business cantering with as little trotting as you’ve done. This isn’t an age thing - it’s totally fine to ask a 3.5yo to canter - it’s a fitness and training thing. You likely need some additional training as well to learn how to set him up for canter transitions, and that should be part of any good instructor’s lessons

I unfortunately have the experience of riding a percheron/TB cross for a number of years that became arthritic much earlier than we would have guessed and he was retired. I do not want that for my guy. As we are going into winter in Ohio, we start fighting against daylight, rain, cold, ice etc which limits riding time. 2-3 times a week would probably be the most we are looking at on a good week once daylight savings time hits.

I wouldn’t put that horse’s issues on yours, as that cross may not have been well-suited for either ridden work in general, or the type of ridden work he was put through. But it is always good to have the long-term goals in mind :yes:

My questions for you folks are as follows! Clearly the AGE piece here is far more subjective physical maturity. With physical maturity in mind, I would like to learn more about what type/intensity of work is detrimental to development at this age? Is riding trails lightly too much (2-4 miles; 4 miles takes us about an hour, hour twenty mins)? Is 20 mins of walk/trot work in a sand arena too much? (I keep those sessions pretty short). I have read that many Fjord owners (and horse owners generally) will pony their young ones on trails quite a bit. I am 130lbs and my saddle is a wintec lite, so its about 10 lbs total so he has a 140 lb backpack to carry around. Our winter plan is to haul into the trainers barn a couple times a month, keep our lessons to more of the hauling in experience, walk trot basics/groundwork this winter. I would LOVE to teach him to bow/lie down and some trick type stuff and already do a lot of showmanship type groundwork with him.

At his age, the quality of the work is just as important as the quantity. High quality, lower quantity, is crucial for his still-growing body. 30 minutes 4 days a week of really teaching him to use himself properly is going to get you a lot farther than 60 minutes 3 days a week of plodding along in an inverted frame on easy trails (not that that’s what you’re doing, just examples)

Groundwork - with an aim of using his body correctly - always pays off. Ground driving is excellent if you can do it well enough.

[FjordBCRF]

Thank you so much for the comment @JB really helpful as usual. Regarding the trainer and the canter; it’s been more of figuring out where he is at with that (balance etc) and then making sure we at least get a couple strides when asked vs any kind of actual canter “work”. She isn’t pushing anything and seems to be very agreeable to going our pace. We have primarily been doing a lot of lateral shoulder work at the walk, and moving it into the trot now which he is doing pretty well with. I’m not too concerned right now and haven’t seen any red flags; she also works cross disciples though her focus is dressage and that’s what she shows. I was able to talk to a few people she works with prior to reaching out as well to make sure she had a good reputation. I think we are ok on that end.

Charlie does long line and does it quite well! Lunging traditionally is a mess lol, but I think I prefer the long lines since you can work not just in the circle. I may start picking up more of that with him; I have the lines and the surcingle…will be a good learning experience for me as well!

[JB]

Ok, the new description of the canter stuff makes more sense. It’s fine to see where they are, and hopefully she’s understanding he (and/or you) need a lot more work in setting up a quality trot, lateral work, lightening the shoulders, before you will get quality canter transitions. Since the canter transition sounds pretty unbalanced and rushy, I would not ask for more canter for a while, not until the trot work is better, so it’s good to hear you’re working on that lateral work :yes:

[DMK]

But there’s hope, there really is (photo by Meg McGuire)

[DMK]

Sigh… @Fjordboycharlie I had a really long post explaining the journey of a Fjord Canter (not to be confused with the journey other horses take!) and added the pics at the end and it ate the post… AAAARGHHH!!!

I’ll try to recreate it later but the short story is START CANTERING NOW even if it is ugly (it will be). Fjords are firmly convinced they are not a cantering breed, so they need a lot of practice at a 3 beat gait even if it is one you aren’t particularly proud of (that comes later)

[FjordBCRF]

@DMK

Sigh… @Fjordboycharlie I had a really long post explaining the journey of a Fjord Canter (not to be confused with the journey other horses take!) and added the pics at the end and it ate the post… AAAARGHHH!!!

I’ll try to recreate it later but the short story is START CANTERING NOW even if it is ugly (it will be). Fjords are firmly convinced they are not a cantering breed, so they need a lot of practice at a 3 beat gait even if it is one you aren’t particularly proud of (that comes later)

If you end up recovering it, I would love to hear!! And beautiful photos <3 I read something on a fjord website that essentially echoed the same thing as you say, get them used to being asked and make them follow through even if it’s just for a few, ugly strides. We have lots of gallop paths throughout our trails and when I ask there he is pretty happy to oblige, sometimes just picking it up when asked without even a crazy trot into it the little stinker. My plan is to make sure I am asking with a very clue canter cue on the trails so there is no excuse for confusion in the ring. I also asked for a long lining lesson last week instead of a riding lesson and he did very well with that, and picked up the canter better than under saddle in the arena. I will also be using using that more in my training, especially for the canter so he can start to figure out the balance with and without me on his back.

[DMK]

@Fjordboycharlie let’s try again. That first pic was when he started cantering under saddle. As you can see it is a rocket to the center of the earth. Yesterday we did 10m canter circles around hazards in the carriage and he was bouncy, light and easily up in my hand (in case you were wondering 10m carriage circles are MUCH harder than ridden circles!)

When I first started cantering I didn’t try and fight the downward trajectory, that was too hard for him and I think most fjords are pretty willing, but boy if you frustrate them too much, they will shut down fast. And they are too smart to make too many mistakes on, no matter how generous they are. So mostly I concentrated on a few things:

1. just cantering, and I wasn’t too proud, we trottrottrottrotted into it a few times before he believed he could do it. Once he knew he could do it I put the kabosh on the trot races. I was perfectly happy using a verbal cue, but as a driver I’m ALWAYS teaching them verbal cues (unlike ridden dressage it is not only an acceptable aid, it is a critical aid)

2. cantering a few more steps than he thought he could, eventually that was a few more times around the ring than he thought he could

3. rhythm at the canter he could manage, which effectively had his head parallel to the ground at about the highest point of his body, but that is really all he could manage. He wasn’t evading, that was him trying…

At some point he actually got nicely balanced in that “frame” (such as it was) and we were able to get variable speeds at the canter. Not engagement, lengthening or collection, mind you, but rather tiny attempts to adjust his pace. That’s when I started asking for ahem a more correct response to my request for contact and engagement. It was about the longest time I have ever spent patiently asking, waiting for the tiniest give so I could release… you know ALL the things that work on every horse I have ever trained… I mostly got a big fjat fjord fj*ck you fjor my effjorts. And so it went for most of the summer and fall. I was starting to get those things in the walk and then the trot, but what was like maybe a 6 or 7 for effort in those gaits was about a 2 in the canter. That winter I sent him off for 90 days driving training, figured I would just pick back up with the battle, er, I mean discussion, in the spring.

He came back from driving training so incredibly balanced and strong, it was amazing. Still had zero inclination to carry his head anywhere but parallel to the earth at a canter, though. So in desperation I put the pessoa rig on him because I felt like I was out of options. I always start with them really loose and change directions every 5 minutes and tighten it up every time so really only the last few minutes are asking the horse to really carry themselves in a correct frame. Ummm, imagine my surprise when that little sh*t cantered around, light, correct and balanced with NO problem. He hit the end of the rig exactly once and realized that unlike a puny human pitted against that fjord neck, he wasn’t winning this battle, er, I mean discussion.

So one of us had been well and truly conned, and it wasn’t the fjord.

So for about the next 3 months I started out in the round pen with side reins on him and worked up to him cantered in the round pen for about 4 minutes each direction. Then I swapped out side reins for draw reins (I won’t ride in side reins) and I hopped on and did a few passes around the round pen in both directions to reinforce the idea that fjord heads need to be more vertical than horizontal to the planet in our new relationship. I rode a few times in the ring in side reins, just to make sure he understood exactly what I was asking and that it wasn’t optional, but for the most part once he figured out he wasn’t going to win the battle, er I mean discussion, he (in true fjord fashion) gave in quite graciously and progressed from there. It wasn’t fast or easy for him, because … fjord. But once we got past that part of it, then it was more like training every other horse I have trained, except for the part where lets me know how very heavy that neck is when he things things are too hard… Or outsmarting him when he thinks things are too hard. Wait, what I really mean is I keep up when he is outsmarting me. That’s usually about as good as it gets. I think real hard and come up with a way to thwart him once I realize he has outsmarted me… yet again.