Treeless Saddle Owners - Do they REALLY fit most horses?

[sublimequine]

So, I am beginning to play with the idea of selling my Wintec Pro Dressage in order to buy a treeless. My Wintec is basically a “backup saddle”, doesn’t fit my horse, but I like to have it on hand as it fits many other horses with the gullet system.

BUT, I’m thinking if I sold it and bought a treeless, I would have a saddle that not only fits many horses I might ride, but would actually fit my own tank-of-a-mare as well (novel idea, huh? :lol: ). But do treeless saddles REALLY fit as wide of a range of horses as they advertise? Wintecs are advertised to fit nearly any horse due to the gullets, but out of the 3 horses my family owns, it doesn’t fit 2 of them! It doesn’t go wide enough for my mare, and the tree is the wrong shape for my sister’s TB with big, dippy withers. :no:

So, treeless saddle owners, can you really take your saddle off a big tank QH, stick it on a thin TB with a bit of withers, then stick it on say a roly poly pony? I know sometimes fit is difficult with treeless and horses with really super-high withers, but I don’t foresee myself riding any sharkfin-withered horses anytime soon. Most of the horses I come across are more on the broad or roly-poly side, rather than the mountainous withered side. :lol:

[pintopiaffe]

The saddles do–but whether or not the RIDER can take the saddle on the horse is a different thing.

There are a very few horses who don’t like treeless. On some of them, very creative padding will work, but most folks aren’t patient enough or don’t have the resources to do what is needed. Really huge withers with atrophy, or very prominent spine (usually also with atrophy) are generally the culprit. Often the horse muscles up and it becomes a non-issue if you can figure out how to get around it.

I had tremendous success and moved up more in the 2 years I rode in an SBS Flexion, then a Fhoenix, than in the previous 5 or 8 years of training. (and 5 or 6 saddles we went through as he outgrew the tree in each one!) It was SO supportive for me, and fit my impossible-to-fit stallion. UNTIL… he gained about 200lbs, most of that in topline, and I simply could not sit in that saddle on him without pain. It actually took me awhile to figure out that was the issue–as the saddle had KEPT me riding through some sciatica and degenerative hip issues when I couldn’t ride in anything *else. *

Ansurs are fabulous for some people and impossible for others. I haven’t quite figured out what the conformation IS that it works for or doesn’t, but some people just cannot get correct position in them.

The Barefoot London is similar–certain conformations will do fine, but fewer even than the Ansur.

If you’re looking for trail riding or just hacking, I think any number of them will do fine, the lower end ones take special pads.

JME.

[lwk]

Well, I have an older Ansur and it has worked fine for all my horses, including an XW warmblood with huge withers. I have a couple of different pads that I use.
It is really hard to maintain a correct position with it on a horse that is “flat on top” like our draft cross. It doesn’t give a lot of support for rider position either.
I like it as a trail saddle but I don’t like the fact that I cannot mount from the ground because it rotates, no matter how tight the girth.

[EatinHay]

I have a big ol’ bull dog of a quarter horse and she is very well muscled and although her withers are visible (she is not mutton withered) they are neither extremely prominent nor atrophied but she hated the treeless saddle that had been given to us from the very first moment I put it on her. Fifteen minutes after riding her a bit, she did settle and do more of what I asked of her but I suspect that was more of good behavior than anything. I also hated the saddle, found it very uncomfortable and hard, perhaps it just needs breaking in??? I don’t know but I think it will be difficult to break in if no one wants to ride in it.

[gothedistance]

@sublimequine;3619406

… But do treeless saddles REALLY fit as wide of a range of horses as they advertise? …

Yes, they fit a far wider range than any treed saddle could ever hope simply because…they have no fixed tree. This gives them the ability to widen and narrow at will to mold to the horse’s back, filling in the dips and gaps that a treed saddle would merely bridge over.

Their limitation lies in the fact that their soft forms find it hard to compensate for bony structures that may protrude from the horse’s back – structures that need to be bridged in a way that only a rigid tree can provide.

I am a former owner of these treed saddles: Apollo by Hartly, County Competitor, and Crosby Gran Prix; now current owner of these treeless: Sensation Dressage (my schooling and dressage saddle), Senstion English Trail (my foxhunting saddle), and a Barefoot Cheyenne (for Endurance competition).

[Ridge_Runner]

I’ve put my EE Fhoenix on about 15 different horses and so far I’ve been able to use it. I had to use a crupper with a draft cross but I suspect she would have needed one for any saddle. Her back was like a table.

[CanterQueen]

I currently own three Bob Marshall Sport Saddles and use them on my three horses (narrow and wide backs). They all fit every horse. BUT, I loaned out one to a friend with wide QH, and while it fit the mare, the horse hated the saddle.

[Bogie]

You’ve already gotten some excellent answers here!

I will add only that the padding system used makes a big difference. I use either a Western Saddleright pad or a Skito pad. I have not had any problems with my horses’ backs and have them checked regularly by an experienced saddle fitter.

I have a Freeform and a Torsion EL. I have used them successfully on a big round warmblood and a TB with more prominent withers and a short back. I really like the fact that I could ride one, throw it out in the field to graze and put the same saddle on the next.

I’ve lent my saddles to several others in the barn and they seem to work pretty well. Some riders don’t like the saddles; there is definitely less support and depending on how they are constructed, they have very little of the traditional saddle “twist” which means they can really stretch your hips on a wide horse. On my Torsion I’ve also had some problems with slippage.

For the record, the early version of the Barefoot Cheyenne didn’t work for me at all; put me in a chair seat.

In general, I think it’s great to have them in the tack room. Personally, I still keep some treeless saddles too. Unlike the poster above, I would not fox hunt in one. I think that for galloping and jumping cross country it’s better to have the support of a tree (both for rider and horse) and am not convinced that when you are in a two-point or jumping that the treeless saddles can truly disperse your weight well enough.

[tkhawk]

I have a Bob Marshall and that is the only saddle that has fit my mare. I am 190 and I have used it on multi day campouts and she is nver sore. I have tried several treed saddles on her-Westrn, English, Endurance, Australian and the treeless fits her the best. She is an Arab and has a short back so I always end up having pressure over the loins. Even in the Bob marhall, I end up having rub marks every spring when she is shedding, but it goes away and she is fine-more friction as it is actually too long for her. But I have tried plenty others and they just don’t fit.
But I have tried several treeless saddles too and they were not proper fits either-slippage issues, some I didn’t like them etc. so I guess I ams tuck with the Bob Marshall…
My mustang ha s amore “conventional” back. He is about 2 inche shorter than her but has a slightly longer back and is not as round as her-so I may get a treed that works for him-not looking forward to the saddle shopping…

[Guilherme]

A saddle without a rigid tree will fit a wider range of horses than a saddle with a rigid tree.

That said, there are other issues. A saddle without a rigid tree will not effectively distribute weight accross a horse’s back as well as a saddle with a rigid tree. This is basic physics and no amount of testimonial or anacdote will change it. This means that you put the horse at risk for a sore back because all your weight will be concentrated in two, rougly six inch in diameter circles, under your butt and in one place on the horse’s back. If you are a very light weight rider on a big horse this might not be such an issue; if you’re not, well, consider the consequences for the horse.

I’ve ridden or sat in a half dozen “treeless” saddles over the years and not one was effective in distributing weight. Adding padding might (note the conditional) help but now you’re violating the KISS principle by having to all sorts of padding machinations. Why not just find a good rigid tree saddle that effectively accomodates horse and rider and move on down the road?

Remember, too, that once all saddles were treeless. The rigid tree is attributed by some to the Sythians. There are extant example of Roman cavalry saddles with rigid trees circa 100 A.D. No horse culture that I’m aware of ever kept the “treeless” model once the rigid tree was introduced. Maybe those folks really did know some stuff.

G.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;3619743]
A saddle without a rigid tree will fit a wider range of horses than a saddle with a rigid tree.

That said, there are other issues. A saddle without a rigid tree will not effectively distribute weight accross a horse’s back as well as a saddle with a rigid tree. This is basic physics and no amount of testimonial or anacdote will change it. This means that you put the horse at risk for a sore back because all your weight will be concentrated in two, rougly six inch in diameter circles, under your butt and in one place on the horse’s back. If you are a very light weight rider on a big horse this might not be such an issue; if you’re not, well, consider the consequences for the horse.

I’ve ridden or sat in a half dozen “treeless” saddles over the years and not one was effective in distributing weight. Adding padding might (note the conditional) help but now you’re violating the KISS principle by having to all sorts of padding machinations. Why not just find a good rigid tree saddle that effectively accomodates horse and rider and move on down the road?

Remember, too, that once all saddles were treeless. The rigid tree is attributed by some to the Sythians. There are extant example of Roman cavalry saddles with rigid trees circa 100 A.D. No horse culture that I’m aware of ever kept the “treeless” model once the rigid tree was introduced. Maybe those folks really did know some stuff.

G.[/QUOTE]

This is the part I wonder about a little bit. What is the maximum weight of rider a horse will still be totally comfy under all conditions with? And is their a height maximum as well? Is there also a maximum time limit on treeless, that if you go on like a 3 hour trail ride, do you risk the horse getting sore?

Here’s mine and my horse’s ‘stats’:

-I weigh just over 100 lbs. The heaviest I ever get is 110. (No cutesie comments about this, please. I get that plenty. :dead: )

-I’m 5’9", with all my height in my legs, specifically from hip to knee.

-My horse weighs just under 1300lbs, and is just barely 15hh (big tank-like QH).

Also, I am mainly looking at the Barefoot Cheyenne. Would this saddle be too long for short-backed Arabs?

[Bogie]

There are plenty of endurance riders who go longer than 3 hours with no problems. Most of them weigh more than you do and obviously, many ride arabs/arab x.

I am almost 6’ tall and weigh about 190. I’ve ridden both my horses treeless for several hours and have had no problems with their backs. I use either a skito pad or a saddleright pad.

I had an older cheyenne that I didn’t think gave very much support . . . currently I have a Freeform and a Torsion, both of which I like better. The Freeform comes in a short back version that might be appropriate for your horse.

Now, I don’t ride exclusively treeless. I have good balance and don’t ride with a lot of weight in my stirrups. I am very careful with my horses’ backs and so far (I’ve had treeless saddles for 4 years) have not seen any adverse consequences.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3620287]
This is the part I wonder about a little bit. What is the maximum weight of rider a horse will still be totally comfy under all conditions with? And is their a height maximum as well? Is there also a maximum time limit on treeless, that if you go on like a 3 hour trail ride, do you risk the horse getting sore?

Here’s mine and my horse’s ‘stats’:

-I weigh just over 100 lbs. The heaviest I ever get is 110. (No cutesie comments about this, please. I get that plenty. :dead: )

-I’m 5’9", with all my height in my legs, specifically from hip to knee.

-My horse weighs just under 1300lbs, and is just barely 15hh (big tank-like QH).

Also, I am mainly looking at the Barefoot Cheyenne. Would this saddle be too long for short-backed Arabs?[/QUOTE]

Each horse is different and what the “maximum” would be for your horse is impossible to tell without seeing it. I would guess that there’s no, single, maximum weight for one horse “under all conditions.” I don’t think height really matters all that much. We dismount on trails every hour or so to walk for a few minutes, rest for a few minutes, then continue. This relieves strain on the horse’s back and my knees. The longer you ride without a break the higher the probability of equine back strain.

For your “conformation” on the horse you describe you’ll likely get away with the treeless for short to medium distance/time rides. Whether or not the Barefoot Cheyenne will work for you can only be determined by you putting the saddle on the horse’s back and then seeing what you’ve got.

Again, I make no secret of my antipathy towards this type of saddle. But my feelings are based upon my own experience and my knowledge of physics and equine biomechanics. As with all things, YMMV.

Good luck in your choice.

G.

[Ridge_Runner]

I disagree that a treeless saddle concentrates more pressure than a treed one. Many of the newer style treeless saddles have a frame around the seat area as well as gullets that distribute weight. The older Ansurs and some of those that have no defined seat or twist I might buy that argument but I don’t with many of the newer ones. The makers of the Fhoenix actually tested their treeless and a number of others as well as some treed models for pressure points. The treeless saddles did very well…and the worst ones they tested were the deep seat treed saddles. They used some sort of special pad that records the pressure electronically as you ride. Heather Moffit herself posted this on the Ultimate Dressage forum. My experience has shown my horses go well in treeless saddles for years and continue to progress and improve…so I think she’s on the level i also think if these saddles were so bad for horses, we’d see them falling out of favor with the endurance folks who really put miles on their horses and quite to the contrary they seem to be gaining favor. The only saddles that do not slip forward on my stallion have been the Ansur Carlton and the EE Fhoenix. I preferred the later as it was more comfortable and supportive for me but my horse was fine with either. I put a well fitted treed saddle on him and he pins his ears and won’t go forward as freely as he does treeless. You figure it out…but he’s made up his mind!

[gothedistance]

@sublimequine;3620287

This is the part I wonder about a little bit. What is the maximum weight of rider a horse will still be totally comfy under all conditions with? And is their a height maximum as well? Is there also a maximum time limit on treeless, that if you go on like a 3 hour trail ride, do you risk the horse getting sore?

Here’s mine and my horse’s ‘stats’:

-I weigh just over 100 lbs. The heaviest I ever get is 110. (No cutesie comments about this, please. I get that plenty. :dead: )

-I’m 5’9", with all my height in my legs, specifically from hip to knee.

-My horse weighs just under 1300lbs, and is just barely 15hh (big tank-like QH).

Also, I am mainly looking at the Barefoot Cheyenne. Would this saddle be too long for short-backed Arabs?

I own a Barefoot Cheyenne which I use for any and all of my Welsh ponies, but it is also my Endurance saddle, and one I love because it is incredibly comfortable for hours and hours and hours on the trail.

My stats: 129 lbs, 5’2", pony weighs 860 lbs, stands 14.1, is a registered Welsh/Arab with a round back. Check out the photos on my website – the current ones of the Fort Valley ride this past weekend show my Cheyenne. As a matter of fact, the photo used for the AERC’s full page ad in the Modern Arabian Horse magazine (Aug/Sept 2008, pg 60 - you can view it online) is one of me at a 55 mile ride…using my Cheyenne.

I give it two thumbs up as a really, really nice trail and endurance saddle. Wouldn’t find me doing dressage or jumping in it, however.

PS: NO sore backs either. This was the saddle I purchased to replace the expensive treed saddles that DID sore my guys back no matter what I tried to do with them.

PPS: Guilherme hates treeless saddles - always has always will. However, if he were a horse… his opinion would probably be just the opposite. :lol:

[matryoshka]

According to the treeless saddle dealer who gave a presentation at an endurance clinic given by the Old Dominion people, not every horse gets along with every treeless model.

She strongly recommend getting a demo and riding at least 20 miles in it to be sure it fits your horse and meets your needs as a rider.

FWIW, the Bob Marshall Sport Saddle I have goes on a 13hh Haflinger-cross mare with a dippy back, an 18 year old Arabian distance horse with a dippy back, and a 17hh Friesian horse with a very wide spine. I use it with a Skito pad that was ordered to specs according to the make of saddle, my weight, and the type of riding I do (still trying to compete at distance, despite numerous setbacks). I check the horses for back soreness before and after each ride, as well as the next day (if it is a horse at my property). Since I’m horseless right now as far as distance riding goes, people are asking me to ride their horses for exercise. If it’s okay with the owner, I use the BMSS. So far so good as back comfort goes.

I do feel like my knees are in different counties when I ride the Friesian in it. Also, with the pony, she’s got a prominent spine yet is wide through the barrel. I don’t have any saddles that fit her, and she was so used to poor saddle fit that she’d get tense at mounting time. That behavior is disappearing with the BMSS. I do feel a bit like Ichabod Krane with my knees jutting out in that saddle on the pony. Still, if she’s comfy and I can stay balanced on her, the saddle is a success.

If you want the feel of a treed saddle with a twist, get a demo of the Sensation Ride. They have a dressage model. I’ve ridden in their trail hybrid model, and it is lovely. They are not recommended for high-withered horses, but you aren’t planning on riding one.

If you go with a treeless saddle, plan to spend several hundred dollars on a good saddle pad designed for use with treeless. It took me a while to save up the money for the BMSS and an appropriate pad.

NOTE: I’m starting a young Arabian mare this fall. She’s green broke but has some issues. I am NOT starting her in the treeless saddle. I have an Abetta western that fits her beautifully, and that is what I’m using. I don’t have enough mileage in the BMSS to trust it to stay put during a sideways spook. When she is going well and reliably, I’ll try her in the BMSS. Until then, I need the saddle tree for my own feeling of security.

[Ridge_Runner]

@matryoshka;3620421

If you go with a treeless saddle, plan to spend several hundred dollars on a good saddle pad designed for use with treeless. It took me a while to save up the money for the BMSS and an appropriate pad.

I just wanted to add that with the Fhoenix saddle, I’ve never used anything but a regular pad and it works fine. I did use a Skito pad for the Ansurs though. The Fhoenix has a much better panel system than the Ansurs at least…and I suspect a bit more so than the Barefoots I’ve seen. Can’t speak for the other makes.

[rodandmicha]

I just sold my Bob Marshall saddle because it didn’t fit my new mare. Every time we would ride down hill it ended up on her withers. I loved that saddle and had used it on my other horse without a problem. She is very sensitive on her back and she literally hated it, as soon as she saw it, she’d pin her ears and be cinchy, now she’s over it, since we are in a flex tree saddle.
You just never know but there is definitely not one saddle that fits all.

[tkhawk]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3620287]

Also, I am mainly looking at the Barefoot Cheyenne. Would this saddle be too long for short-backed Arabs?[/QUOTE]

About the length, I have short backed Arab too . She has high withers and the back/loins slope up at a very steep angle. Because of her withers, she dos not look butt high-but if she did not have withers she would be butt high. Add to this a very short back and very round -for an Arab. She was track bred -she is petty but fitting a saddle is just a pain. The Bob Marshall is about 26" long total- a little different depending on the seat size. Surprisingly for my mare, despite it being the longest saddle on her-it works best. The Australian I tried and custom fit was 24" long, the Western was only 23". I even got one of those McCellan type ones for 20 inches-the saddle was the right length but never stayed on and in steep downhills-she started balking as it jammed up her front legs/shoulders.
I think the Barefoots are about 24" length-varies a little by model/size. But again they need a good pad. But because they are not structured, length may not be as important a factor.
But again you have to try them out-most treeless saddles are online retailers with maybe a physical location somewhere and offer at least a one week demo program. They send you saddle/pads/sometimes even a cinch. It usually runs about 40$ one way for shipping and some do charge a demo fee… I demoed several treeless and ended up sticking with my Bob marshall. But the pad is pretty important and some of them you can’t really rely on the saddle for support. You have to ride well-my Australian on the other hand I loved it -just lovely saddle secure, solid-but didn’t fit her:no:.

[matryoshka]

I do like to use a crupper with the BMSS. I like a looser girth, so I prefer a crupper with any saddle. I never dared to use one on the bucky OTTB. But with the little Arab, I’m starting her using the crupper. She’s fine with it. Again, it might be for my own feeling of security more than for actual saddle stability. I find that my comfort level affects my riding.

Rodanmicha proved that not every treeless is for every horse. I’ve heard the same from a treeless saddle dealer. I’d think she knows what she’s talking about. For best results, get a demo and try it on every horse you intend to ride in it.