Treeless Saddle Owners - Do they REALLY fit most horses?

This is so funny because I just sold my treeless to buy a Wintec Pro Dressage. :lol:

YES, the Bandos fit everything from skinny fence rail Arab to sherman tank quarter horse. Also my POA. No problem. It’s just MY hips giving me the problem and that’s why I’m switching. I want to buy a Sensation treeless when I have the $$$ scraped up, but for now I’m riding the QH bareback and LOOOOOOOOOOVING it. She is SOOO comfortable. Her trot has really smoothed out in the last year or so due to a few changes we’ve made, and she is great to ride. I was just thinking on Saturday after a 10 mile bareback ride - I wonder if I could do an LD on her bareback?! :lol:

Anyway, just try a treeless. I bet you’ll love it!! And if you don’t, just try a different one! :smiley: Your girlie is built just like my Monster and my treeless fit her perfect. She really liked it too. The saddle was just doing something weird to my hips and I have some bizarre problem going on in my joints or something right now anyway. Oddly enough, bareback is more comfortable for me on her.

Not to sound like a Bob Marshall infommercial here, but my BM saddles do well with spooks, bucks, uphill and downhill climbing. I don’t think they do any better than a treed saddle, but they certainly don’t do any worse.

My QH did a 180 degree spin when a jogger suddenly came up behind us out on a trail. I stayed in the seat and the seat stayed on the horse just fine. I think the flexible nature of the treeless saddle construction has actually helped me “feel” movement faster than a hard-seat treed saddle would.

In 2+ years of riding the young one, I’ve been “spun” or bucked off 5 times. Once was in a western saddle with a horn, once was in an Aussie saddle with big honkin’ thigh blocks, twice was in an Abetta endurance saddle, and once was in my treeless!

Also, the nastiest “bucked off” episodes I can remember on other horses, was in a dressage saddle, and a roping saddle.

So if the horse is quick enough and sly enough, you’re going off no matter what - treeless or treed! :lol:

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3623138]
This is so funny because I just sold my treeless to buy a Wintec Pro Dressage. :lol:

YES, the Bandos fit everything from skinny fence rail Arab to sherman tank quarter horse. Also my POA. No problem. It’s just MY hips giving me the problem and that’s why I’m switching. I want to buy a Sensation treeless when I have the $$$ scraped up, but for now I’m riding the QH bareback and LOOOOOOOOOOVING it. She is SOOO comfortable. Her trot has really smoothed out in the last year or so due to a few changes we’ve made, and she is great to ride. I was just thinking on Saturday after a 10 mile bareback ride - I wonder if I could do an LD on her bareback?! :lol:

Anyway, just try a treeless. I bet you’ll love it!! And if you don’t, just try a different one! :smiley: Your girlie is built just like my Monster and my treeless fit her perfect. She really liked it too. The saddle was just doing something weird to my hips and I have some bizarre problem going on in my joints or something right now anyway. Oddly enough, bareback is more comfortable for me on her.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh we should’ve just traded!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I’ve been a bit concerned about the hips things as well, because my mare’s so huge and I’m rather petite. But I never have problems riding her bareback, and both my treed saddles have quite wide twists to them and no problem there, so I’m hoping it won’t be an issue.

Did you have to take the gullet/pommel out of your treeless? I’m worried it’ll pinch my mare’s honkin shoulders, but without it I hear saddle rolling’s a lot worse. :confused:

I know a very serious barrel racer who rides in a BMSS. She won’t ride in anything else.

I have been competing in endurance since 1997, most of that time I’ve used a BMSS. I have owned several other brands of treeless saddles and of the ones that I have used I must say that the BMSS has the most stability and best weight distribution. I’m a technician, and I analyze how thing work, how they are built and how they could be made better. The BMSS spreads the stirrup weight over the entire saddle. For folks who ride largely seated, at a walk, the distribution isn’t going to be as good, but it’s no worse than it is when you ride bareback or on a pad.

Anyway, many saddle fit problems with a treeless saddle can be fixed with adjustment of the pad under the saddle. This includes the rider comfort issues. Personally, after trying and owning several other makes, I don’t recommend the Torsion, Barefoot, Bandos, style of treeless saddle. They are designed to be too flat across the seat and although you can improve this with a saddle pad, or may be able to accept the fit on a not so flat backed horse, I just don’t see any reason to buy a saddle that is designed this way. Not if you can afford another make of saddle that has a better design.

I do like the feel of the Sensation Saddles and use mine regularly but have switched back to the BMSS for longer rides and competition. Better for my horse, IMO.

Bonnie S.

Well, I did at first, but then realized it made no difference so I put it back in. Yes, it really slips without that pommel in. It will slip some on a horse like yours (and mine) no matter what though, unfortunately. But using a breastcollar with the Y attachments over the neck REALLY helps.

It’s interesting to hear you say this Bonnie because I have always assumed the opposite of BMSS. :confused: It’s like you just sit on a big flat square of leather. I always thought the saddles were way overpriced for what you actually get, but maybe I need to rethink that. I rode in a BM Barrel saddle and loved it but was really concerned about the way it seems just so flat and rigid on top of the horse’s back.

I’ve been most interested in the Sensation but I hear so much positive about the BMSS that I am “really” tempted to try one instead.

I have read that the little flap of leather easily wears out that covers the cinch ring. People have had to take that in and have it replaced, and the cinch ring rubs through the leather and into their leg. That’s what has me worried the most about those saddles.

Do you ride with a sheepskin? Maybe that alleviates that problem also?

Do you have troubles on short backed Arabs with the BMSS?

The other problem I have with them is figuring out all the darned options! And sizing. Aiy yai yai. It is so confusing.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3624064]
Well, I did at first, but then realized it made no difference so I put it back in. Yes, it really slips without that pommel in. It will slip some on a horse like yours (and mine) no matter what though, unfortunately. But using a breastcollar with the Y attachments over the neck REALLY helps.[/QUOTE]

I have slippage problems no matter what I do, so that’s nothing new to me. :lol:

I tried a breastcollar in the past, it was an english-style one, and it just didn’t want to fit right. It really messed with her naturally very low-tied-in neck, and every time she tried to lower and stretch out her neck as she is SUPPOSED to do (QH, remember!), the dang thing got in the way!

My Supremo Fatness never got that memo! Ok, so she’s 1/4 Thoroughbred, but shhhh, don’t tell anyone. http://www.hphoofcare.com/M%20(6).jpg :lol: (not me riding! That’s my friend - all 92 pounds of her.)

See the saddle ridden way up her neck - hence the reason to try treeless on her. It works GREAT for her! I bet you’ll like it, once you get used to it!

If you love riding Your Couch bareback I get you’ll love treeless too!

I too have a Bandos…I use it on my Appendix. He’s got a long back, and sort of high withers due to the way he’s carried his back for so long. If you you make him round up, they aren’t as high, but not mutton withered either…I tried the saddle without the pommel, and major slippage! He wasn’t complianing with it in, so I put it back. I feel much more stable now! (The pommels are you usually narrow/average size I believe)

We have a good pad (HAF), padded breast collar with y-strap, and thinline girth. Now I can actually mount from the ground!

My biggest problem…I can’t get my calves on him. His barrel just disappears! This even happens when I am riding bareback though, so not a saddle issue.

I second the easier to sit spooks! I can always feel a little muscle twinge before the big spook and am prepared for it. I haven’t come off due to that…yet. LOL :slight_smile:

Try some saddles out! I got hooked from riding in a barefoot… Price and style really determined what route I took in the end. I personally didn’t like the look of BMSS…My favorites are Barefoot western types, but alas the funds aren’t available for it!

Slippage really is not only on treeless. My Bob Marshall, the treed Western saddle (crates) I had for a while an the Aujstalian(treed) I had for a while all stayed on her and never slipped. I can mount from the ground.
But other saddles I had treed and treeless did slip both mounting and during spooks. I was demoing one of the treeless and we were doing a canter and she spooked and spun and the saddle was sideways-how I managed to stay on I do not know. But horses:confused:-she had spooked at an odd looking flower and spun and the saddle hanging sideways and me almost falling off did not faze her at all!!:lol:

Very true, but the older I get, the harder the ground gets. And at this point, it’s injury on top of scar tissue. :wink: It’s why I no longer have Butch. Watch, though, I never came to grief on the big bad bucking OTTB–it’ll be the little Arab that gets me. :smiley:

I have never liked the looks of the BMSS–it’s clunky–which is why I seriously resisted trying one, until Bonnie talked me into it (was going to go for the Sensation Ride). No matter what the thing looks like, you can really feel the horse’s back moving under the saddle. It took me two rides to get the stirrups to the correct height, and by then, I could feel the horse rounding under me at the canter as he had not done in a treed saddle that fit. It’s cool when you can feel those muscles. Also, I think they go down hills better treeless, because you can move out of the way when you feel the back muscles bunch as they bring their haunches under. I have no other way to describe it.

I’m not sure if the Sensation Ride would be the same, since I’ve only used it on a gaited horse, and he just carries himself differently than trotting horses.

The other thing I find helpful about the BMSS is the low stirrup attachment. It’s a mixed blessing. It pulls the knees a bit, but it keeps my feet back. Because of an old back/hip injury, in anything other than western fenders my right foot, knee, and hip slide forward after the first few miles. The BMSS helps me stay even. I would not have thought so when looking at the saddle, but it really does help me stay balanced–and that’s better for the horse.

Aventera Two,
Take a look at the various Barefoot saddles on this web site:
http://www.actionridertack.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=35_249&osCsid=d342f741dc87e48d8616147ba56cdccd

I’m not trying to offend anyone, please, this is just my opinion, this “type” of treeless saddle, which IMO includes most of the treeless saddles that have the removable seat on top, are very flat, it’s in their design. I owned a Barefoot London for a while, owned a Lag also. They actually felt better, less flat, without that silly thick seat on top.

Look at the pics of the BMSS here: http://www.sportsaddle.com/noflash/gallery/endgallery.html These saddles have a bit more “twist” to the seat. It’s largely because they have a pieced seat, seamed down the middle and made with a contour to it.

I found it hard to even find a picture of a torsion or Barefoot without it’s removable seat in place. these saddles for a large part are made as a flat one piece pad. Without the pommel attached the saddle lays out flat when set on the floor. So they need help from pads with inserts and maybe creative cutting and shaping of the inserts to get more of a “twist” feel. IMO they feel best when used on a horse that isn’t flat backed, so does the BMSS. But, interestingly, I’ve used a BMSS with only a plain fleece pad under it in many endurance rides, no inserts, and there is always a long dry strip down the horse’s spine, no saddle pressure, because of the contour built into the seat. Of course, I do hours of posting, not hours of sitting.

No, I’m not fond of the flap under my legs, covering the cinch and stirrups rings. The newer BMSS have a bigger flap made of heavier leather. Pic number 27 in the photo gallery above shows the current style of BMSS. Wish the saddle maker would experiment with a “english” style saddle, but they don’t seem interested.

A note of advice. The endurance models come with the stirrup ring placed very much under your hip, more so than any other saddle that I’ve used. If you have bad knees, as mine have become, you will find yourself happier if you shorten your stirrups some, get your knees further ahead of you, where they are off the bulk of the rings/rigging, and where your horses barrel is a bit more concave, the pocket just behind the shoulder. I’m sending my BMSS back to the mfgr this winter to have the stirrup ring moved further forward. I bought this saddle used. If I had ordered one I would have had the ring placed an inch further forward.

I do like the Sensations, they are the most comfortable “English” style saddle that I’ve tried so far. I haven’t tried the Moffett or Ansur saddles as they aren’t in my price range. I competed Mouse all this last year in the Sensation and had to come to the conclusion that the saddle isn’t as good for his back as the BMSS. I know a lot of people are using them for endurance but I’m seeing back changes and other evidence that convinced me to switch back to the BMSS.

I also had a FreeForm saddle. This one didn’t work for him. I had ordered the short base model but Mouse is butt high and still had loin pressure in spite of playing around with special pad inserts. I do know that they work great for many rider/horse combos. I sold mine. Oh, IMO they are very close contact like. Again, they have a flat pad as a base and I never got the feel of having a hollow for my knee to fit into. I didn’t have a model that allowed for adding the velcro knee rolls. I am short legged and I found that my knee was above or behind the knee rolls on the FreeForm, BF London and Treefree saddles. The Sensation saddles have a built in twist and better shape that you sink into. You can place knee rolls under the flaps where you need them, a couple of different sizes. But the saddle doesn’t have enough structure for heavier riders and they have very soft, thin leather, too thin I think, but super comfy.

I have certainly spent a lot of money trying saddles over the years, I do want to try an Ansur by the way. I have a couple of endurance riding friends that are using them now.

Bonnie
S.

I ride in a Fhenox too. I love it for both my wide guys, and with a high withered pad, it works for my ASB. He is not ridden so much anymore though. Just a bit of bumbling around, age is catching up to him.

I see what you’re saying about the seam down the middle of the BMSS. I’ve never noticed that before.

The only “real life” report I have of a BMSS was from the owner of our local tack store. A friend of his bought one to run barrells in, and he said it sored the horse’s back terribly because the saddle would sort of “fold up” in the middle and he got a sore strip running side to side right across the middle of his spine.

Would that have happened because the saddle was just too big (long?) and possibly the horse was butt high or something?

There was a BMSS for sale on endurance.net that showed a VERY clear crease (fold) running side to side right in the middle of the seat - like the saddle was folding up between the croup and the withers. When I saw that, I thought for sure - no way.

But I don’t know. I am very willing to rethink it if I can get enough good info on these saddles.

Maybe it’s just the horse’s back conformation that causes the folding up? The best I can tell, I’d need a very short (small) saddle. Most of them for sale are 16 to 18". I’m thinking I would need more like a 14.5 to 15". Would that be less likely to fold up on the horse’s back?

Saddle pads are an important part of using treeless saddles. They are the equivalent of having an english saddle flocked specifically to fit your horses back. the cool thing about using a pad with removable/replaceable foam inserts is that you can do the customizing yourself.

You can cut them to fill the low spot in a dippy back. You can cut the foam thinner at the front of the inserts so the saddle can sit further forward on a short backed horse, right up over the horse’s shoulders yet give the shoulders clearance so they move freely. You can trim the inserts thinner or higher under your thighs so you have closer thigh contact and a better “twist”. You can do so much to change or improve your treeless saddle fit by trimming the inserts with an electric carving knife. You can do this also for a treed saddle but since the treeless saddle are flexible the possibilities are nearly endless.

I’ve noticed that many people who buy a treeless saddle for a other equine sports do not get an appropriate pad. Heck some endurance riders don’t either. Then they have an issue and dump the saddle. Not all treeless saddles are good designs, I don’t care for a lot of them myself. But there are some pretty good ones out there which may work for you and your horse. Just be sensible, pick one that is designed to distribute weight well, and analyze your horse’s conformation and needs.

Bonnie

I have both the Freeform and the FreeWest. Both fit my different horses with no slippage to speak of. To be fair, I don’t mount from the ground. If there is no mounting block, I use whatever is nearby, log, ditch etc. Even if I have a small uphill mount, the saddle doesn’t slip any more than my treed saddles did which is very little. It may be because the of the Thinline that I use in combo with my HAF pad.

The only slippage of note I’ve experienced recently was in very steep terrain and I had no crupper. Saddle kept slipping up over her shoulders though in fairness the last time I rode in similiar terrain with my treed Black Country Vinici (dressage) without a crupper, I had the same issue.

The FreeWest has much less saddle bulk under the leg than the Classic. That is the reason why I purchased it since it was more difficult to get my leg around my round mare in the Classic. I preferred the Classic seat and the English webbers so I did modify the saddle in that respect but it does allow a closer leg position on the horse.

I know plenty about pads. I bought a $200 Toklat Woolback, high profile with Ultracell inserts, after researching for 2 months on which expensive one to buy. I hate the look of skitos and HAF. I like WOOL so that’s why I went with that style. It worked awesome with my Bandos. Don’t know if it would work with the BMSS or not but I know I’ll never sell it because it works great under any western treed saddle.

You mentioned cutting them to fit. At $60 a set, I’m really not keen on cutting them up. I tried to trim mine a little bit and the foam is such that can’t be trimmed without special tools. Scissors won’t touch it. A box cutter blade just ripped and tore the inserts. A serated knife turned it into swiss cheese. A razor sharp filleting knife just dulled the knife and didn’t cut the foam.

My question was about the BMSS folding up in the middle. Is it on primarily badly put together horses, or saddles that are longer (excess of 16"), or both?

[I]

I know plenty about pads. I bought a $200 Toklat Woolback, high profile with Ultracell inserts, after researching for 2 months on which expensive one to buy.
[/I]

I didn’t realize the Toklat Woolback was an appropriate treeless pad.I had one that I sold though I only used it for my treed saddle. Are they making them now specifically for treeless saddles? I felt mine was a bit bulky and frankly I would have thought it would have contributed to slippage combined with a treeless.

The vast conventional wisdom out there regarding proven treeless pads are the HAFs, Equipedics and the ubiquitous Skitos. I’ve read of less well known brands that folks were happy with but I believe they were all specifically designed for particular treeless saddles.

I’m always interested in other pads since I’m a tackaholic so was just surprised at the choice of the Toklat.