Treeless Saddle Owners - Do they REALLY fit most horses?

[Auventera_Two]

Yes, if you get the one with the inserts. The inserts are very similar to the skito inserts. I was instructed to buy this pad from Action Rider Tack, based on the fact I do not like the lookds of Equipedic/HAF/Skito/et al. The girl I talked to told me she has over 2,000 miles logged with her BMSS and Toklat combo. Always got As on back scores. She told me they don’t sell Skitos for a good reason - whatever that means, I’m not sure. But anyway, everytime I rode with that pad, the spine was one long dry strip so I assume it was working fine. The horse never complained either.

Now, I’m pretty sure you’re not supposed to use just a plain Woolback without the inserts, though if you’re treeless.

I went with the Woolback because plain and simple - I just LIKE 100% wool. I do not like neoprene, nylon, or cotton. I just like plain ole Wool and the only way to get it was to go with the Woolback.

I didn’t find it added to slippage at all. Real Wool has tiny barbs on each hair fiber that add a lot of grip.

The worst slippage I had was with an SMX Air ride (nylon/fake fleece), cotton and gel Cottage Craft girth, and the Bandos without the pommel insert. That was a total disaster. As in - by the time I rode to the end of my street, the saddle was hanging off the side of the horse with the pad walked out the back onto her loins. I went home and ditched that pad right away. Later ditched the girth and bought two of the Montana Cincha 100% mohair dressage girths. Can you tell I like natural fibers? :lol:

[rmh]

I have been using a BM lately since my main saddle was stolen. I usually use the BM when at the beach or when I know we will get wet. I rode in the mts. both Friday and Saturday. I was having a lot of pain in my hip area. I have a barrel chested RM. I understand now why I was hurting.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3625974]
I see what you’re saying about the seam down the middle of the BMSS. I’ve never noticed that before.

The only “real life” report I have of a BMSS was from the owner of our local tack store. A friend of his bought one to run barrells in, and he said it sored the horse’s back terribly because the saddle would sort of “fold up” in the middle and he got a sore strip running side to side right across the middle of his spine.

Would that have happened because the saddle was just too big (long?) and possibly the horse was butt high or something?[/QUOTE]

It happened because the saddle does not effectively distribute weight. This is an exteme example of the physics of the thing, but that ought to give a body pause.

A fellow I know on a Mounted Shooting site was selling a Western “treeless” saddles (I don’t recall the brand). The photo showed a clear crease accross the seat of the saddle.

G.

[chicamuxen1]

AT,
I haven’t a clue why those BMSS had a crease across the middle. It may be that the longer/larger seat sized could fold in the center if placed on the shoulders at the pommel and way up the loins at the back. If a horse is high at both ends most of the treeless will bend downward in the center. I have endurance riding, heavyweight friends that have 1000’s of miles in BMSS saddles. A couple of them ride in 16"+ saddles. They ride Arabians too. No creased saddles.

Actually, although we all say you should use a good pad with inserts under a treeless saddle, you may not have to. I rode for years with a plain Toklat Woolback pad, no inserts, I often use one today for training rides. I mentioned that in an earlier post. Neither of my horses have prominent spines, just average backs. My neighbor who is NOW a HW competes often with a Sports Medicine SMX Air Ride pad. This is the funny, bublewrap feeling pad, no real spinal channel. I’m amazed that it works as his horse has a fairly prominent spine. I can feel his spine thru the pad and saddle but the horse never has a sore back. Again, an endurance rider who rides a fairly decent pace doesn’t spend a lot of time seated, not on an Arabian.

If you ride a gaited horse or do long walking trail rides you may actually have more reason to have the thicker foam inserts.

Oh, AT, if you need to trim foam inserts, use the electric carving knife. Well, this works for the memory foam type. You can actually chill the foam, laid flat so it firms up and trim slowly and lightly. I’ve done this so many times now that I know what I want to remove now. You can also add foam, felt, ??? to the inserts.

I really, really, really prefer Toklats wool fleece. I wish Skito used the same type of fleece. It is so thick and dense, really lasts well.

AT, did you get a Woolback with the center seam opening? I’m told that the high profile for treeless only comes with the front load. I’m guessing that the center seam would still work for my BMSS. I’m ready for a new pad and I want a Toklat one this time instead of the Skito.

Bonnie

[matryoshka]

I’m wondering if it is the nature of speed events that causes the folding. I’ve never felt such a tendency when riding in my BMSS, but I’ve only logged about 100 miles in it to date. Honestly, if I’m asking a horse to do fast turns at speed, I’d think a tree would provide them support. I like treeless, but I’m not sure they are appropriate for every sport.

I were to do barrels, I think I’d choose a saddle with a tree–that’d keep my seatbones from grinding into the back during a tough turn. One would think that cutting horses would do better with a tree, too.

A riding instructor I absolutely love is dead set against treeless because she doesn’t think it provides enough support for the horse’s back. I had to stack that against the advice I’ve gotten from distance riders who say their horses do better in treeless. And distance riders spend hours in the saddle, so they’d know. I concluded that perhaps different sports require different tools. My compromise? I bought a BMSS on advice from distance riders but don’t use it when taking lessons from the instructor. She didn’t ping me when she found I’d been riding a Friesian in a treeless, but maybe that’s because the saddle that came with the horse didn’t fit him. :no:

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;3629570]
I’m wondering if it is the nature of speed events that causes the folding. [/QUOTE]

It is lack of RIGIDITY that permits folding when a proper force is applied.

G.

[sublimequine]

[QUOTE=Guilherme;3629864]
It is lack of RIGIDITY that permits folding when a proper force is applied.

G.[/QUOTE]

Not all treeless saddles do that, though. And they all lack the same rigidity.

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=sublimequine;3630027]
Not all treeless saddles do that, though. And they all lack the same rigidity. [/QUOTE]

Anytime you see a “crease” in a structure you know you’ve got an overstress condition. Some treeless models may be more resistant to this type of failure than others. I’ve heard that some use “internal structures” of soft materials. These might provide a marginal increase in rigidity. But any saddle that is overstressed will behave in this fashion (even one with a rigid tree). Thing is I can “crease” many treeless models out there with brute force; there’s no way I can do that with a rigid tree without some serious mechanical assistance.

So this is a sign that the saddle was overstressed in use. Just what that overstress was is a matter of conjecture (unless we’ve got a video of the incident).

G.

[chicamuxen1]

Actually, Bob Marshall who is the designer/mfgr of the line of saddles is a reiner. He came to the conclusion that treed saddles were restricting his horse’s back movement. He started experimenting and began to build western saddles. One of the most popular saddles is his barrel racer.

Again, I’ll mention that my neighbor, IE heavy weight rider, took his horse to a Sport Horse clinic. Dr. Joyce Harmon was one of the clinicians. She did saddle fit analysis on each horse/rider/saddle/pad. The computerized saddle pad consists of a thin cloth with pressure sensors in it. The computer pad is put underneath the saddle with any pad combination desired. The horse is then connected to a laptop computer with a quick-release longe line. A color image shows up on the screen indicating where there are places of high and low pressure. She tested XXX riding his BMSS with his regular pad on his endurance horse. XXX isn’t a “trained” rider, very self-taught. Dr. Harmon told him that she was suprised at how well his saddle distribute his weight, she sid it was doing a very good job and tested better than most of the treed saddles tested that day.

I’ve gotten to see thermography images taken at an endurance ride of horse backs immediately after the saddles were removed. How interesting those are!

Bonnie S.

[matryoshka]

I hate to be devil’s advocate, but I see a huge difference in how the saddle is used in endurance vs. barrel racing. Except for occasions when negotiating difficult terrain or during a spook, endurance use is a matter of keeping soreness from setting in over the long hours in use, and allowing the saddle to move with the rider would be an advantage. For endurance, it isn’t about protecting the horse’s back during tight, quick turns where the rider’s seatbones are going to push into the horse with much greater than usual force for several strides, repeatedly for each course run.

Rather than than folding being a concern, I would have expected the rider’s right seatbone to really dig into the horse during each turn. A tree would keep it from seriously poking the horse. I could see that semi rigid pads with a treeless might help prevent such a thing. One does wonder, though, given how well the BMSS saddles perform for endurance use, whether the particular saddle was defective or whether their padding system was inappropriate. It’s hard to argue with an actual crease. Also, there is a circle Y that isn’t a true BMSS.

Don’t know. I’m just thinking aloud here. If a saddle has a crease in the middle, then it has failed the horse for that particular use. I wouldn’t condemn all BMSS’s from all usages based on one or two saddles that didn’t work out for a given sport any more than I’d say that one or two barefoot performance horses means they can all go barefoot at that level. (That one was for you, G.–we ARE on the same sheet of music about shoeing horses that need to be shod afterall ;))

[Guilherme]

Ayup. :lol:

I, too, have seen thermography and other computer generated images of different saddles on a horse’s back. ALL the treeless units showed clear areas of highly concentrated pressure (some more than others). Rider skill can influence pressure distribution. But at the end of a the day a soft structure will not distribute pressure as well as a rigid one. (If it were not so then we’d build skyscrapers out of foam rubber, not steel.) This is why every horse culture I’ve ever studied dispensed with bareback/soft saddle materials as soon as they got rigid saddles.

Remember that saddle fit is a means to an end, NOT an end in itself. Just as hoof care is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

If the “treeless” works for you then God Bless You. But I suspect there’s a lot of folks wearing “rose colored glasses” when they analyze treeless saddle performance.

G.

[CanterQueen]

Guilherme, Now you’ve got me wondering, as you sound very knowledgeable . . . what saddle would you recommend for a trail rider?

I’m looking for specifics here. I understand the need for good saddle fit, but is there any specific brand or manufacturer you prefer or have seen to be better built for the horse??? I’m talking treed saddles here. I’d like to try one, but have no clue where to start. HELP!! :winkgrin:

[Guilherme]

[QUOTE=CanterQueen;3631706]
Guilherme, Now you’ve got me wondering, as you sound very knowledgeable . . . what saddle would you recommend for a trail rider?

I’m looking for specifics here. I understand the need for good saddle fit, but is there any specific brand or manufacturer you prefer or have seen to be better built for the horse??? I’m talking treed saddles here. I’d like to try one, but have no clue where to start. HELP!! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I ride in a Stübben Scout. It’s their police/military saddle. It’s a general purpose saddle that permits reasonable modification of seat, leg position, and stirrup length to accommodate differing needs. It fits me and my horse quite well. It has ten d-rings to hang stuff on. That stuff can include a saber, rifle, etc. Did I say it fits me and the horse well???

My wife rides in Stübben Siegfried VSD-DL. This, too, is a more general purpose saddle. The difference between the standard Siegfried and the VSD-DL is that the DL has a longer, “dressage style” flap. This is a bit of an advantage in a longer distance saddle and, IMO, provides a somewhat neater appearance. We sent the saddle off to Stübben after we bought it and they put 10 d-rings on almost like my Scout. Saddle fits her and her mare well.
The reason she does not have a Scout is that the smallest seat size is 18". When the Scout was designed for European police and military use there were no females permitted in those roles. It’s optimized for the male anatomy. She finds the shape of the seat uncomfortable.

Did I mention we’re Stübben fans?!?!?!?!

There are alternatives. I have good friend who swapped a Steele Plantation saddle (a type I like) for an Aussie Stock Saddle from DownUnder Saddles. I tried it. He swears by it; I swore at it! But then I’ve never found an Aussie that was comfortable for me. It is for him, and for many others. You’d have to try and few and see if they work for you.

He and his son both liked my Scout.

There are a number of military saddles that make good distance choices. They were designed to allow a trooper to cover ground carrying a load and not overstressing the horse.

The U.S. offerings include the McClellan (first introduced in 1959). I’ve never found the Mac comfortable but it hung on until the end of the horse cavalry in 1948. There are many versions out there (new construction and originals). I’d personally not use an original as horses in those days were somewhat smaller than modern animals and fit WILL be an issue. There are several quality U.S. makers of reproduction units; I’d not buy a reproduction import.

The Grimsley Dragoon Saddle was the Mac’s predecessor. I’ve had a chance to try a couple and I like them. The seat is deep, comfortable, and secure without being overly confining. There are at least three U.S. makers that I know of.

The Whitman Saddle was proposed as a Mac replacement about 1879. It’s very lightweight and corrected some of the Macs perceived flaws. It was field tested and recommended for adoption. The then Army Chief of Staff, Gen. W.T. Sherman, disapproved the adoption. His grounds were that the Army had tens of thousands of Mac trees in warehouses and that they should be exhausted before a new saddle be adopted. There’s at least one reproduction maker I know of.

The last official U.S. Army saddle was the Phillips. It was formally approved in about 1936 but never procured in large numbers. It was light, comfortable, and could carry a good load. There are no Phillips reproduction makers that I know of.

The British developed the Universal Pattern saddle beginning in the very late 18th Century. Various models were used and are continuing to be used today by the Household Cavalry. The Tucker Trooper saddle (and other similar units) are derived from the UP. It’s a good trail saddle. I’ve only sat in one and was unsure about it. It puts the rider above the horse and I think costs some feel. But maybe that’s just me. It is certainly popular with a lot of people (especially field trialers).

You can also find military saddles from Germany, Poland, Hungary, France, etc.

The Plantation Saddle is another option. These were probably the original “gaited horse saddle.” My wife rode a Steele Plantation for several years and liked it. It’s not so good for “equitation” purposes as the seat is very deep and limits rider movement. Most have the stirrups hung forward and that tends to put your feet “on the dashboard.” If you buy a new one you can specify how you want it and Steele will do what they can to accommodate you. Good customer service, by the way.

A style I’ve seen and tried but never really follow up on is the Buena Vista saddle. It’s similar in many ways to the Plantation saddle.

I’ve owned a number of Western saddles (including a custom California saddle) and don’t recommend them as trail saddles. Most are way too heavy. That heft is necessary for a roping platform, but just extra pounds in a trail saddle. The light weight Western saddles I’ve seen were not of very good quality. Maybe this is just my preference for an English or Military saddle speaking. You’d have to spend some time in a shop with a good Western saddle selection to see if you find anything you like.

This is about as specific as I can get.

There are LOTS of choices for saddles beyond “English” or “Western.” Just what will work for you, your horse, and the disciplines you is a very individual decision. Good luck in your choice.

G.

[CanterQueen]

Wow, G. THANKS SO MUCH! If we could tag users as “favorites”, you’d be at the top of my list.

I prefer Western riggings and I’ve looked at the Steele saddles, but haven’t had the opportunity to actually try one out.

You also mentioned some others that I hadn’t heard of and will start some web searches and learn more about them.

Thanks again!!!

[Guilherme]

You’re quite welcome. Good luck in your search.

G.

[Malda]

Has anyone tried a Sensation and a Freeform? I currently ride in a Bandos, and although it’s very comfortable, fits my horse well and is very, very secure, there’s so much stuff under my legs that I can’t put my leg on the horse. Do Sensation or Freeform allow more contact? Since my Bandos is falling apart (I’ve only had it seven months) I’m considering other treeless.

Thank you,

Erin

[gothedistance]

I ride in a Sensation – I bought one for foxhunting, and loved it so much I bought the dressage model for trail riding and endurance rides. Both have much more contact than my former treed models (Crosby and County, respectively). The panels underneath are very similar in shape to a treed saddle and provide outstanding padded protection, but because they don’t contain any rigid form they mold easily to the shape of the horse’s back. The leather is beautiful, soft, and really holds up.

I tried the Freeform. Found it to be too stiff and sit too far off the horse’s back, and I didn’t like how the leather on the seat was stitched. This is just my opinion – I know others that love the saddle.

You can demo both – form your own opinion to see if either suits your preference.

[Auventera_Two]

@Malda;3636239

Has anyone tried a Sensation and a Freeform? I currently ride in a Bandos, and although it’s very comfortable, fits my horse well and is very, very secure, there’s so much stuff under my legs that I can’t put my leg on the horse. Do Sensation or Freeform allow more contact? Since my Bandos is falling apart (I’ve only had it seven months) I’m considering other treeless.

Thank you,

Erin

That’s why I sold my Bandos! I even ended up cutting open the fleece and removing (no kidding!) a good 2" of foam under my legs. I sewed the fleece back shut again and was left with just a plain leather flap under my legs, instead of all that foam and “poof” popping my legs out off the horse.

But - I sold it anyway. Might be getting it back though. The lady who is using it isn’t terribly crazy about it. If I get it back, I’ll find a way to make it work until I can afford a Bob Marshall or a Sensation.

[Malda]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3636859]
That’s why I sold my Bandos! I even ended up cutting open the fleece and removing (no kidding!) a good 2" of foam under my legs. I sewed the fleece back shut again and was left with just a plain leather flap under my legs, instead of all that foam and “poof” popping my legs out off the horse.

But - I sold it anyway. Might be getting it back though. The lady who is using it isn’t terribly crazy about it. If I get it back, I’ll find a way to make it work until I can afford a Bob Marshall or a Sensation.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the suggestion, I just might try that. Especially since it’s at the repair shop, maybe I can have them do the work. I do like the saddle, the seat is comfortable and I’m very secure. We have steep hills where I ride and I’m more secure going up and down in this saddle than I am a treeded saddle.

Erin

[Camp_Girl]

No saddle fits all horses, treed or treeless

Depends on who you ask. My fitter does not like them… and a number of fitters, equine chiros, etc. don’t care for them. Some do endorse them. Dr. Joyce Harmon who has a couple of saddle fit books and DVDs on the market thinks that treeless has good potential but they aren’t for every horse.

Although my fitter does not like them, I decided to add one to my tack collection this summer. I ended up with a Barefoot Cheyenne Size 1. I like it and find it comfortable. My gelding likes it too. I paired it with a Torison Merino wool pad with wool inserts and that seems to work well. Have used it on a friend’s anglo gelding, and on another friend’s quarter horse. While those horses seemed to like it and it fit them, it may be different for your horse, you, or as your only or primary saddle (I’d say this for a treed saddle too, sometimes it takes time for problems to show themselves). I won’t ever give up my treed saddles… they fit well, are comfortable and have their place too, but I do like the Barefoot.

Safest to keep in mind despite what anyone might tell you (and it is usually those trying to sell you a saddle), no saddle fits every horse. Period. Best way to know what works for your horse and you is to try, try, try.