troubled friend and her troubled horse - WWYD?

[thecolorcoal]

i have something i need advice on.

i have a very good friend at my barn. i’ll call her F. F has a masculine mare she is too small for, among other things. the mare is a good girl - she’s been shuffled from home to home and was a rescue horse F bought from the rescuers (don’t ask me how - i still don’t quite get it).

Mare can jump the MOON, but F is a very nervous rider and gets scared easily, even though she is trying to keep up with me and my mare (we jump way higher than her).

Mare got sick. F gave up on her and wanted to sell her, because she was afraid mare wouldn’t perform at her level (she described her dream horse as a 4’ horse, but F only jumps 2’).

Trying to keep this contained, but F has a very poor home life. When she first got Mare, she was crazy in love with Mare. Mare WAS responding well to F, until Mare got sick and F had made up her mind to sell. F didn’t ride Mare for over a month, not wanting to re-bond with her. I understood that.

I encouraged F to just try and see what happens. F decided to keep mare, but their relationship has never been the same.

F is a CA fan. F loves to try and use CA methods on her mare, and i know a lot about CA but… F is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE than CA. When F’s emotions get too high, her mare is not responding swiftly enough, she will go ape$*!t on Mare, spinning her in tight circles, whacking her butt with the crop, shrieking about how Mare can’t disrespect her…

On the ground, sometimes it is worse. Mare is a big girl, and Mare means no harm, she is simply the quiet type, and because she is so large sometimes her “small step” seems gigantic, because of her long legs. Mare takes a step towards F, wanting a pet or a cookie, and F perceives it as threatening. Yanks the rope hard and starts shouting. Mare raises her head in fear and backs up, but doesn’t back up fast enough. Mare gets a hard smack with the lead line and more yanking.

I ask F what her purpose of this is. She says, “she’s not backing with purpose.” I say maybe F should give Mare a chance to understand what she is asking for. An argument brews, and i drop the subject.

F turns Mare out, calls for mare, whistles and asking her to come close. Mare totally blows her off, and F doesn’t understand why. My theory is whenever Mare tries to get close to F haltered, F gets angry and sends her away, so why would Mare approach her during pasture turnout?

I’m not describing everything to keep it private, but it’s getting to the point where F and Mare are just… not happy. I know Mare loves F, but F can’t see the beautiful horse in front of her. I am much older than F who is under 20, and I have tried to give F advice, but F perceives it as criticism and tells me i don’t know what I am talking about because “my horse is a six year old” and her horse is 20. I don’t treat my horse the way she treats hers.

Not sure if there is a solution. There’s some borderline “mistreatment,” and i will put it in quotes because said “mistreatment” comes from a place of ignorance and lack of human training, so I won’t fault her for it, but her actions towards Mare, even what I don’t mention, might make Peta raised their eyebrows.

Is there anything I can do to help? I try to set the example, but something always makes F regress…

[Foxglove6]

It sounds like you are trying your best and are ultimately concerned for the horse’s welfare and your friend. There’s not much you can do to change your friend’s behavior. You can make suggestions, offer to show her various things, maybe even offer to work with the horse a bit. But your friend sounds like a volatile personality that won’t want to listen or be told that she’s wrong. You may have to just decide if that’s someone you want to be friends with.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

There really isn’t a solution if F is just over Mare. To be honest, It sounds like there is a personality conflict! I have the awesome opportunity to ride other people’s horses, and you know, I do not wish to own any of them! Don’t get me wrong, I like them all and think they have a lot to offer, but their personalities just don’t click that well with mine.

Perhaps F should sell Mare? Both are not happy… both could be happy with a different partner! I sold a mare several years ago because we just didn’t like doing the same things… I wish I had decided to sell sooner! She is a lovely mare, but she wanted to be a jumper and I wanted to do dressage so we fought and fought and fought… Her current owners love her for the jumper she is, and I have a horse that likes dressage! Win-Win.

[ladyj79]

I really didn’t have to read much beyond your friend has a bad temper. This horse is not the right horse for someone with a bad temper. Most horses are not the horse for someone with a bad temper.

I do actually know two small women in particular who try to bully horses. One over more than a forty year span. She has never been successul but something about this temperament makes it very very resistant to acknowledging that they are the problem, not the horse, and changing how they interact. I’ve seen more sensitive horses ultimately lose it with these people and injure them…Which generally leads the rider to blame the horse even more.

Honestly psychotherapy is probably the best option for people like this, but they’re generally resistant to that as well.

[thecolorcoal]

you all are right - they are not a good fit for one another. i originally was the one who pushed for F to sell Mare when Mare got sick, but i am very concerned for F’s mental health and safety if she gave Mare up - you know teenagers…

had i known F was this kind of person, I would have stayed far away from F, but a part of me thought I could help. I thought she could be a rational ‘adult,’ considering she prides herself in being ‘mature.’ I’ve strayed so far from the teenage mentality and have wanted to forget it altogether. I love being an adult - we can be more knowledgeable. I’ve locked myself into a relationship with F by a) stalling my horse near hers and b) we share a tack space.

Things are made more complicated that I also “train” F, and when i say train i mean coach, and when I say coach I mean riding with her and giving her instruction. No, I am not paid. I do it for experience and because this girl REALLY needs a trainer, and she is at least willing to take some of what I suggest.

I got on Mare the other day. Mare is a one-person horse, that is for sure. Mare feels like she is going to kill you under saddle, and that is NOT an exaggeration. I haven’t been scared on a horse in a long time, but the other day I was. Mare does this head-fling thing we’ve managed to “control” with a running martingale becaue F INSISTS her riding is “spectacular.” she is the kind of girl to fix everything but herself. we’ve tried numerous bits, tack, martingales, nosebands, and other things to get this mare under control, the only thing that hasn’t changed is how she rides her.

I guess this thread is just to see if I am alone in this situation? I’ve been riding at show barns most of my life and this kind of attitude is generally not accepted where I’ve chosen to spend my riding time, so this is all-new for me.

[Sunsets]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8857177]
y

I got on Mare the other day. Mare is a one-person horse, that is for sure. Mare feels like she is going to kill you under saddle, and that is NOT an exaggeration. I haven’t been scared on a horse in a long time, but the other day I was. Mare does this head-fling thing we’ve managed to “control” with a running martingale becaue F INSISTS her riding is “spectacular.” she is the kind of girl to fix everything but herself. we’ve tried numerous bits, tack, martingales, nosebands, and other things to get this mare under control, the only thing that hasn’t changed is how she rides her.

I guess this thread is just to see if I am alone in this situation? I’ve been riding at show barns most of my life and this kind of attitude is generally not accepted where I’ve chosen to spend my riding time, so this is all-new for me.[/QUOTE]

Oh, poor Mare! She might not be a “one-person horse” but she sure sounds awfully defensive. As she should be, if you are reading the situation correctly. Mare does not need a running martingale. She needs some time off, an appointment with a massage therapist or chiro, and then a restart with a patient and FAIR rider who is willing to take the time to work with her.

She sounds a lot like the mare that I ride (she was a head flinging, kicking and stomping beast when my barn owner purchased her) and it breaks my heart to think what might have happened to her if she hadn’t ended up with a rider who really took the time to figure her out.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8857103]
i have something i need advice on.

i have a very good friend at my barn. i’ll call her F. F has a masculine mare she is too small for, among other things. the mare is a good girl - she’s been shuffled from home to home and was a rescue horse F bought from the rescuers (don’t ask me how - i still don’t quite get it).

Mare can jump the MOON, but F is a very nervous rider and gets scared easily, even though she is trying to keep up with me and my mare (we jump way higher than her).

Mare got sick. F gave up on her and wanted to sell her, because she was afraid mare wouldn’t perform at her level (she described her dream horse as a 4’ horse, but F only jumps 2’).

Trying to keep this contained, but F has a very poor home life. When she first got Mare, she was crazy in love with Mare. Mare WAS responding well to F, until Mare got sick and F had made up her mind to sell. F didn’t ride Mare for over a month, not wanting to re-bond with her. I understood that.

I encouraged F to just try and see what happens. F decided to keep mare, but their relationship has never been the same.

F is a CA fan. F loves to try and use CA methods on her mare, and i know a lot about CA but… F is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE than CA. When F’s emotions get too high, her mare is not responding swiftly enough, she will go ape$*!t on Mare, spinning her in tight circles, whacking her butt with the crop, shrieking about how Mare can’t disrespect her…

On the ground, sometimes it is worse. Mare is a big girl, and Mare means no harm, she is simply the quiet type, and because she is so large sometimes her “small step” seems gigantic, because of her long legs. Mare takes a step towards F, wanting a pet or a cookie, and F perceives it as threatening. Yanks the rope hard and starts shouting. Mare raises her head in fear and backs up, but doesn’t back up fast enough. Mare gets a hard smack with the lead line and more yanking.

I ask F what her purpose of this is. She says, “she’s not backing with purpose.” I say maybe F should give Mare a chance to understand what she is asking for. An argument brews, and i drop the subject.

F turns Mare out, calls for mare, whistles and asking her to come close. Mare totally blows her off, and F doesn’t understand why. My theory is whenever Mare tries to get close to F haltered, F gets angry and sends her away, so why would Mare approach her during pasture turnout?

I’m not describing everything to keep it private, but it’s getting to the point where F and Mare are just… not happy. I know Mare loves F, but F can’t see the beautiful horse in front of her. I am much older than F who is under 20, and I have tried to give F advice, but F perceives it as criticism and tells me i don’t know what I am talking about because “my horse is a six year old” and her horse is 20. I don’t treat my horse the way she treats hers.

Not sure if there is a solution. There’s some borderline “mistreatment,” and i will put it in quotes because said “mistreatment” comes from a place of ignorance and lack of human training, so I won’t fault her for it, but her actions towards Mare, even what I don’t mention, might make Peta raised their eyebrows.

Is there anything I can do to help? I try to set the example, but something always makes F regress…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8857177]you all are right - they are not a good fit for one another. i originally was the one who pushed for F to sell Mare when Mare got sick, but i am very concerned for F’s mental health and safety if she gave Mare up - you know teenagers…

had i known F was this kind of person, I would have stayed far away from F, but a part of me thought I could help. I thought she could be a rational ‘adult,’ considering she prides herself in being ‘mature.’ I’ve strayed so far from the teenage mentality and have wanted to forget it altogether. I love being an adult - we can be more knowledgeable. I’ve locked myself into a relationship with F by a) stalling my horse near hers and b) we share a tack space.

Things are made more complicated that I also “train” F, and when i say train i mean coach, and when I say coach I mean riding with her and giving her instruction. No, I am not paid. I do it for experience and because this girl REALLY needs a trainer, and she is at least willing to take some of what I suggest.

I got on Mare the other day. Mare is a one-person horse, that is for sure. Mare feels like she is going to kill you under saddle, and that is NOT an exaggeration. I haven’t been scared on a horse in a long time, but the other day I was. Mare does this head-fling thing we’ve managed to “control” with a running martingale becaue F INSISTS her riding is “spectacular.” she is the kind of girl to fix everything but herself. we’ve tried numerous bits, tack, martingales, nosebands, and other things to get this mare under control, the only thing that hasn’t changed is how she rides her.

I guess this thread is just to see if I am alone in this situation? I’ve been riding at show barns most of my life and this kind of attitude is generally not accepted where I’ve chosen to spend my riding time, so this is all-new for me.[/QUOTE]

Confused about why you first encouraged her to try with the horse and then said you encouraged her to sell but…

This is a “good friend”? Doesn’t sound like it from the way you describe her. Whether she is right or wrong, I think you need to step back. You probably won’t be able to help her because your attitude toward her comes through loud and clear in your posts. If it comes across in your dealings with her, she is going to be defensive and perceive your advise as criticism which you have already seen.

[sdlbredfan]

I stopped reading right after ‘F is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE than CA. When F’s emotions get too high, her mare is not responding swiftly enough, she will go ape$*!t on Mare, spinning her in tight circles, whacking her butt with the crop, shrieking about how Mare can’t disrespect her’

Please. ENCOURAGE F TO SELL THE MARE, before F completely ruins her.

F IS ABUSIVE, and you need to help the horse get an owner upgrade.

[Beck]

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;8857693]
I stopped reading right after ‘F is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE than CA. When F’s emotions get too high, her mare is not responding swiftly enough, she will go ape$*!t on Mare, spinning her in tight circles, whacking her butt with the crop, shrieking about how Mare can’t disrespect her’

Please. ENCOURAGE F TO SELL THE MARE, before F completely ruins her.

F IS ABUSIVE, and you need to help the horse get an owner upgrade.[/QUOTE]

This.

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;8857693]

Please. ENCOURAGE F TO SELL THE MARE, before F completely ruins her.[/QUOTE]

Ah well, you know,

I know Mare loves F

The poor confused, defensive animal is just trying to find some way to deal with its inconsistent, aggressive owner. No need to be anthropomorphising the critter.

[Ghazzu]

Video an episode of this bullcrap and sit Miss Pissy down and have her watch herself.

A crappy home life is no excuse for abusive treatment of an animal.

[Scribbler]

I am a bit confused about the OP’s story. I am not clear if OP was riding Mare in the past, then stopped, and now Mare is dangerous under saddle, or what.

However, this is a very ugly situation. You have a teen who has both family problems and mental health issues, abusing (yes, that’s the word for it) a horse that may or may not have been suitable for teen at the start, but has clearly been made worse and worse.

If Mare was indeed providing any kind of positive experience for Teen, and escape from her other problems, I would say she should be supported in keeping the horse. But it seems clear that Mare has become another source of negativity in Teen’s life. The situation has the potential to become physically dangerous for Teen (she will eventually get bucked off or kicked), emotionally or mentally nonproductive for Teen (she is being allowed to express abusive behavior and rage towards a living creature with no consequences), and of course no good at all for Mare, who will eventually become “dangerous” and end up on the meat wagon.

I think teen and horses need to part company for a while, and that teen needs some adult, expert, intervention. I don’t think this is just a smart alec know it all teen getting in over her head. I think there are more serious mental health and impulse control issues going on here.

I know we like to think that teens can grow and develop through their time with horses. And many do. But that development comes out of learning empathy and responsbility for another living being. It doesn’t come out of being left alone to vent your anger, rage, and delusions on a horse.

I would suggest you encourage teen to re-home Mare, and step back from horses. I would suggest trying to set her up with some counselling or some kind of program, though I know that this kind of help is very thin on the ground in many parts of the world. I would also suggest you understand your role towards her to be “helping adult” (whatever your age) and not “friend.”

You may also need to have some discussions with the other responsible adults at your barn. What do the BO, BM, other adults, make of the situation?

As far as being “mature,” lots of kids who have family problems have to “grow up fast,” and do so on a surface level. They may be socializing at an adult level (smoking, drinking, sex) early on, and they may project a surface confidence or worldliness, and they may resent or have no idea how to be in a positive relationship with an adult mentor (because all the adults in their life so far are bat-crazy). But this surface behavior does not necessarily mean that they are “mature” in the sense of self-aware, responsible, thoughtful, or able to learn and take advice. Indeed, often teens who present as less “mature” in their social habits are in fact more mature at a true emotional level.

[2tempe]

OP, you are between a rock and a hard place. I’ve had a couple friends who were, lets say, not a match for the horse they picked. It did not go this badly, but in one case friend was seriously injured. These stories involved riders who would not admit they had made a bad decisions. (and they were adults) You can’t fix the mindset that doesn’t want to hear you.
Also, you said the horse in question is 20? And has issues? Where will there be a market to sell the poor thing? This needs to be seriously considered…
Ugh, I don’t have any brilliant (or otherwise ) suggestions. Someone above mentioned including other adults - perhaps an intervention - ugly as that may be. I don’t see any other option.

[thecolorcoal]

You all make excellent points. My opinion of F swings between wanting to get away and adoring her. Some days her and Mare work beautifully, but then there are others - usually involving a tough day at school - when she feels she can’t control anything, and so my guess is she takes it out on Mare, feeling like she can at least control Mare when everyone else in her life has told her to take a hike.

To clear some confusion: I do not regularly ride Mare. I have on occasions when my horse is laid up, like when she had a back pain episode a month ago. I do not enjoy riding Mare. Imagine a horse that is a mix of an ex race horse right off the track and a wild mustang never gentled, and you have Mare. F tolerates Mare’s behavior because F 1) has no idea how to fix it and 2) she is scared that Mare might hurt her - I am too. It’s not Mare’s fault; Mare is a good horse, but has been shuffled from home to home to home, was abused {confirmed} as a broodmare and overbred. Mare is not a cuddly horse.

What’s worse. If I try and school mare, F yells, “She doesn’t like that! she only responds to [enter voice command here]. Don’t use your legs! Don’t use the reins! You’re only going to upset her!”

I had a talk with one of my barn friends about what F could possibly SEE in Mare. Friend told me she talked to F, and F told Friend that she bought Mare for 2 reasons: a, she was cheap [under $1000] and b, she was tall [a status symbol for a 5’1 girl].

Rode with F today. F and Mare did fabulously, but F put Mare back in her loose ring snaffle [i don’t care either way], then complained it didn’t have enough breaks.

Driving point: there IS NO MARKET to sell this horse. Not meaning F deserves her, but if F were to sell Mare, Mare would find herself either at auction or put down for behavioral problems and illness. I’ve explained this to F when F wanted to sell Mare as a “pasture pet” for $1000.

I don’t know how to get through to F. There is a difference between disciplining your horse and redirecting your own emotions onto your horse. I admit, i’ve been a culprit of it in the past, but I am self-aware and make sure NEVER to strike out at my own mare if I have a bad day. I’ve watched these CA videos, and F doesn’t have the timing or the background understanding CA has.

I thought about taking to F’s mother, but I know that would go poorly as they bought Mare in an attempt to keep F from doing drugs, engaging in promiscuous behavior, and self-harming. If I confide in Mother, Mother is going to tell me her daughter couldn’t possibly be hurting Mare…

I wanted F to sell Mare originally so Mare could find a better home. When realizing F might be semi-suicidal or that F could easily dip back into drugs/etc, I pushed for F to keep Mare, in hopes that I could inspire F to treat Mare better.

[heronponie]

The solution here is a good coach & trainer.

Mare needs someone who will not make 10,000 excuses about how abuuuused she is and how she doesn’t liiiiike things, and will just get on with training the horse. F needs an authority figure and ideally some peer pressure from other teens to fall in line with some more reasonable behaviour.

In your shoes I would be gifting a few lessons with a good coach/trainer and having a chat with mom & dad about the importance of good training for F’s general safety around horses.

[Ruth0552]

F needs a therapist and a good instructor that will put her on the right path. Mare needs a good trainer that will help straighten her out.

I assume that the $$ for those things is unavailable? Could F be convinced to work off some lessons at a reputable trainers if the trainer has a big heart and is willing?

Teenager sounds very frustrated. Which is understandable, with a not great home life plus hormones. Perhaps she needs another sport to take out her aggression and frustration, like kickboxing?

[thecolorcoal]

heronponie, F is using me as a trainer/coach at the moment but I only know so much. I’ve encouraged her to take lessons with the local trainers on the property, but her answer is always “it’s too expensive.” I know I sound like i am making excuses for F - I am not, and If i had money to spend I’d buy her a lesson or two… I’ve just NEVER had this issue with ANYONE. I and everyone I know JUMP at the chance to take lessons, if only for the experience. F prefers to “ride on her own.”

It’s starting to effect me psychologically, too. She demonizes certain types of bits and training equipment based on what she’s watched on youtube, but once i showed her that sometimes they can help her “i hate all gadgets” mentality goes away to “i LOVE gadgets” (not healthy either), and as soon as something doesn’t work, she “hates” it again. My horse is in a simple snaffle, and when hers “magically” got better with a pelham, she suggested I USE a pelham on my very sensitive mare because it would make her “easier to ride”…

Like i said, I will continue to guide her. I just really appreciate knowing my observations are not singular and that I am not crazy for thinking she is mistreating her horse.

[amm2cd]

Take her with you to audit a trainer whom she would respect, I’m guessing of the NH persuasion. If you can afford it, gift her with one lesson in a clinic. Sometimes teens need to hear it from someone with more authority/respect/ stature/whatever that they are doing it wrong.

[2horseygirls]

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;8857693]
I stopped reading right after ‘F is WAY MORE AGGRESSIVE than CA. When F’s emotions get too high, her mare is not responding swiftly enough, she will go ape$*!t on Mare, spinning her in tight circles, whacking her butt with the crop, shrieking about how Mare can’t disrespect her’

F IS ABUSIVE, and you need to help the horse get an owner upgrade.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8857811]Video an episode of this bullcrap and sit Miss Pissy down and have her watch herself.

A crappy home life is no excuse for abusive treatment of an animal.[/QUOTE]

So, to summarize, Mare was awesome sauce until she got sick with …??? Then because she wasn’t a perfect Barbie Disney horse, she sucked.

Then F watches some guy on a video, and somehow has been given the impression in her life that she is QUALIFIED to use these methods (which 99% of knowledgeable and accomplished horsepeople with decades of experience tend to f*** up on) to turn Mare back into Barbie Disney horse.

And when Mare gets confused (hell, I’M confused!), she gets further abused.

Have I hit the high points?

:mad: WT everloving F?!?!?! :mad:

Mare is a saint, and every adult in this equation needs a really hard Gibbs slap.

1. F needs to be sat down and given boundaries and parameters of what is acceptable and unacceptable in terms of handling ANY horse, much less one that has been ABUSED . . . ?!?!

2. Mare needs some time away from F. If she’s “not cuddly”, then I don’t think she loves F – I think she is trying to figure out what will please the lunatic beating her so it stops.

Problem is - one day, Mare isn’t going to give a shit, and will take F out. And that still won’t be Mare’s fault, but she will probably be put down for it.

3. Find a counselor to work with this girl. Go to EAGALA.com if everyone is dead convinced that horses are the magical answer - at least their model includes an Equine Specialist who will stop F from beating a therapy horse.

4. Every adult at this barn needs to go back to Pony Club or 4H or wherever they teach respect for horses.

WHY is F being mollycoddled? My previous BM/T would tell grown-ass women they were done and get off their horse IMMEDIATELY if they started in on the horse for not reading their minds on a command that they either hadn’t communicated clearly, or had also presented a conflicting command on. And she didn’t care who was there - empty arena or in the middle of drill team practice with 20 other riders and coaches.

CaitlinandTheBay’s statement of “It’s like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks.” has never been a more accurate quote.

[Ambitious_Kate]

F Is abusive. A horse which cannot trust the human handling or riding her is an untrustworthy mount.

For the life of me I can’t imagine why she is being “mollycoddled” as the poster above me asked. No excuse for her, or for you tolerating her.