Truly all-weather footing

[soloudinhere]

Assuming that the budget is flexible (but not completely unlimited) and that someone is looking for footing that:

1. does not freeze
2. drains exceptionally well
3. does not compact to solid glue after a day of riding
4. is not GGT

what would the suggestion be?

I’m building an outdoor in New England that needs to be rideable all but the absolute coldest/snowiest/iciest days of the year. Needs to be very resilient to heavy rain. Dragging, maintenance, watering, etc all fine, except for the kind of thing that they have in SoCal that has to be covered at the first hint of rain. Willing to put in whatever base, etc is required for the drainage as well. Significant investment possible, 180x300 ring.

[S1969]

What is your riding temp range?

I am having a hard time imagining any outdoor arena that is always rideable below freezing. Sometimes, maybe, but not dependably. It would have to drain very fast after freezing rain, slush or snow for it fully drain before freezing. Mine does not - and will freeze solid. Once that happens, it’s all over because it rarely warms up enough to get it useable again. Mine is just basic sand with drainage underneath.

And what about snow, will you plow it off?

[DiamondJubilee]

I agree with S1969 about the freezing (unless it only drops a bit below freezing and then back up through the day).

I know a lot of racehorse trainers up here in Ontario honestly have to wait by a thermometer and once it gets to 0C, they go out to their tractor to work up the track. This way it doesnt freeze and can be used through the winter. But once it snows or rains again, they have to keep working it up to not be a frozen blob. Its a lot of work and stress but this is the only way they can use it through the winter (and this is of course nicly drained/expensive track footing).

[soloudinhere]

Well, footing that drains well and does not retain water would not logically freeze. It’s the water within the footing that freezes, not the footing itself.

therefore a footing that has low water retention or is not water dependent, like some of the Otto products, would work.

snow is actually quite a workable surface. Ice is the problem.

last year was quite a crap winter, cold wise, but we only had about 10 days where we had to plow. Otherwise it was just bloody freezing.

[S1969]

@soloudinhere

Well, footing that drains well and does not retain water would not logically freeze. It’s the water within the footing that freezes, not the footing itself.

therefore a footing that has low water retention or is not water dependent, like some of the Otto products, would work.

Well, in theory, yes. But something that drains that fast when it is 32F and raining seems like it might be so porous that it might be too dry when not wet. I guess there must be a perfect balance somewhere. I’ll be curious to hear if anyone has ever found it for the Northeast. I’ve long since lost the desire to ride outside in the winter. Even in an indoor - when it’s below 15F I’m not really interested.

[soloudinhere]

@S1969

Well, in theory, yes. But something that drains that fast when it is 32F and raining seems like it might be so porous that it might be too dry when not wet. I guess there must be a perfect balance somewhere. I’ll be curious to hear if anyone has ever found it for the Northeast. I’ve long since lost the desire to ride outside in the winter. Even in an indoor - when it’s below 15F I’m not really interested.

The impetus for this is to have something rideable in December. We go to Florida January to March so it’s mostly December and April I’m worried about. The $300,000 for an Indoor covers roughly a lifetime of seasons in Florida.

[LilyandBaron]

I ride in my pasture when my arena freezes solid. I still miss out on some days if it’s icy, but overall, this works. I also have the option to haul out. I’ve lived all over and only indoor arenas are actually all-weather, and in some places, only if they are heated, because in truly frigid temps, the footing/ground inside can get hard, too.

[tbchick84]

I road in an outdoor ring that was part sand and part crumb rubber. Even in harsh New England winters, as long as you broke up the icy layer on top of the snow, the rubber would heat up and melt the snow from below within a day after it snowed assuming the sun was out.

[Hilary]

MgCl? Although you would have to reapply after it rained since it would wash away. If you have a ring that drains well, and is in a sunny location that goes a long way . If you can wait until midday to ride, it is usually thawed enough.

I find that if I want to plow, I need it to freeze first otherwise I will move too much footing.

Why don’t you want GGT (just curious).

And of course the flippant answer would to extend your time in Florida to include December and April…

[soloudinhere]

@Hilary

MgCl? Although you would have to reapply after it rained since it would wash away. If you have a ring that drains well, and is in a sunny location that goes a long way . If you can wait until midday to ride, it is usually thawed enough.

I find that if I want to plow, I need it to freeze first otherwise I will move too much footing.

Why don’t you want GGT (just curious).

And of course the flippant answer would to extend your time in Florida to include December and April…

I’d love to leave from November to April, but my husband might divorce me

GGT is a maintenance nightmare and I have seen more than a few injuries that I would attribute to the footing - for the money I’m just not willing to go there. I am looking into Travelrite and the Master Mix from Premier at the moment. I priced the OTTo full rubber footing and it’s as much as an indoor!

[Lucassb]

I wonder if a different fiber footing might work for you. I have FutureTrack in my outdoor and it’s a superfine sand+fiber mix; the fiber might hold a bit of water but I don’t anticipate it doing a hard freeze or being unrideable (once dragged) in winter. Rubber + sand might also be a good option. We had that at my old arena in CT and as long as we ran the drag over it at the proper depth it stayed rideable all winter.

[soloudinhere]

@Lucassb

I wonder if a different fiber footing might work for you. I have FutureTrack in my outdoor and it’s a superfine sand+fiber mix; the fiber might hold a bit of water but I don’t anticipate it doing a hard freeze or being unrideable (once dragged) in winter. Rubber + sand might also be a good option. We had that at my old arena in CT and as long as we ran the drag over it at the proper depth it stayed rideable all winter.

I have seen some good sand and sand/rubber arenas here in NW CT. The trick is the drainage and I don’t mind spending some $$$ on that.

[EquestrianJane]

Have you looked at the Attwood products. I think that they are way ahead of the curve in their R&D. What injuries are you talking about @soloudinhere?

[soloudinhere]

@EquestrianJane

Have you looked at the Attwood products. I think that they are way ahead of the curve in their R&D. What injuries are you talking about @soloudinhere?

I’ve noticed that most of your posts are about GGT, so I’m going to assume there’s no advertising involved, but the lack of shear and overall grabbiness of GGT and fiber footing is well known for causing soft tissue injuries.

[AKCH]

If you’re going to water the arena you have to be willing to risk getting some frost or frozen ground. You can’t have one without the other. If you water the arena, there will always be some amount of moisture which will cause the freezing clumps in your footing. The question I have is what is it you plan on doing with the footing(discipline wise).

Rubber based footings are phenomenal with draining and do not freezing in low temperatures. We just brought in footing that has carpet fibers mix with silica sand. The footing is actually the same footing you would have seen on tv(or youtube) at the royal west show jumping competition. That footing makes phenomenal footing outdoors and indoors and we have winters much colder than what you will ever get in Ca. Video link attached below.
https://youtu.be/exsekgL7j38

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Honestly, I would stick to good old boring sand … but put radiant heat at the base.

I know that sounds crazy but it is super cheap to run (think heat house for $30 of propane per month). The hot water tank and heat exchanger might cost $3K but you could get yourself a pretty sweet system that is efficient. A lot of people in Ontario are now using this under driveways so they don’t have to scrape or de ice - it can be done! You will want to talk to a clever plumber and the UVEX pipes may cost a bit but definitely worth exploring. If you put glycol in the pipes you can even turn it off when you are come with no problems.

[scruffy_the_cat]

I’m pretty ignorant but I’m fairly sure that when our farm’s indoor collapsed in 2014/2015, it didn’t cost $300,000 to rebuild. I think it was closer to $150k? That’s construction plus all new sand/clay/magnesium footing.

[clanter]

did you ever consider giving the horse(s) the time off in November and April ?

I do not believe our horses were exceptionally smart but we found they never missed a beat if we gave them extended periods off, usually they came back stronger and with greater interest … but then again we were not doing super upper level dressage, just top level Class A and Competitive Trail at the national level.

[clanter]

@Mouse&Bay

Honestly, I would stick to good old boring sand … but put radiant heat at the base.

I know that sounds crazy but it is super cheap to run (think heat house for $30 of propane per month). The hot water tank and heat exchanger might cost $3K but you could get yourself a pretty sweet system that is efficient. A lot of people in Ontario are now using this under driveways so they don’t have to scrape or de ice - it can be done! You will want to talk to a clever plumber and the UVEX pipes may cost a bit but definitely worth exploring. If you put glycol in the pipes you can even turn it off when you are come with no problems.

do not even need propane if you use geothermal

[S1969]

@AKCH

If you’re going to water the arena you have to be willing to risk getting some frost or frozen ground. You can’t have one without the other. If you water the arena, there will always be some amount of moisture which will cause the freezing clumps in your footing. The question I have is what is it you plan on doing with the footing(discipline wise).

Rubber based footings are phenomenal with draining and do not freezing in low temperatures. We just brought in footing that has carpet fibers mix with silica sand. The footing is actually the same footing you would have seen on tv(or youtube) at the royal west show jumping competition. That footing makes phenomenal footing outdoors and indoors and we have winters much colder than what you will ever get in Ca. Video link attached below.
https://youtu.be/exsekgL7j38

The issue is whether it will not freeze in New England, in winter, though. No one waters an outdoor arena in winter. But obviously rain, sleet and snow will happen, and may cause more than freezing “clumps”…as in, will it freeze solid if it rains/sleets all night and then drops to 28F?