Trying to educate my eye

[Pehsness]

removed link

I hope this isn’t offside posting an old blog link.

I’m looking ahead a few years to when i get to “upgrade” my horse. My current coach breeds hackney/Clyde crosses. Sometimes hackney/clyde/tb.

Today there was one out and about and he was so sweet looking, it started the wheels turning.

Everything about them is so different from what I’m used to (QH). Conformation, movement, right down to the shape of their head (trivial, I know!). So using the link above as an example, I don’t know if what I’m looking at is quality or odd or something else entirely.

I trust the coach, and she has shown successfully in the past. But my next horse has to be (or I want to be) a long hauler, not another square peg like my saint of a qh.

Realistically aspirations are just to go as high as I can, but on a local scale.

Any thoughts for me to ponder?

[Mondo]

The horse in the video is very nice. I would say that if your trainer is breeding horses of that quality, it might be a good way for you to go. Certainly I would expect such a cross to have a great temperament. I’ve not ridden a Hackney, but I have trained a full Clyde and he was the most willing and hard working horse you can imagine. Good luck.

[eightpondfarm]

welllllll…why not!
kinda reminds me of Labradoodles… Take two disparate breeds and see if you get the best of both. Probably doesn’t always pan-out, but often it does. Don’t know if the cross itself will give you bragging rights, but if the horse goes well, you sure will help them earn a good rep.

[Pehsness]

From what I can see, her horses are lovely. But apply that to dressage and I don’t have a clue!

[Pehsness]

It’s called a commercial cross, so it is somewhat “well known”, but not very common from what I can figure out.

[SAB]

So I want to caveat my response by saying that was a beautiful ride, the horse is obviously well trained, willing, and perfectly capable of I1. However, as you are trying to educate your eye, for me, the tendency for the horse to push behind himself with his hind legs, as well as how close they are is not ideal. To be clear, this is a function of confirmation - drafts and carriage horses were bred to pull, not sit. For me, I see it show up in the pirouettes. It’s obviously one of the harder movements for this guy. But again, this is me being super picky, and what I would look at if I were buying my next FEI horse.

[Pehsness]

ah, interesting sab. Thank you for taking the time.

I can’t fathom I have FEI aspirations, but I want to know everything.

No matter what I’m going to have to get an ‘off breed’ horse just for budget. So I want to start exploring them all now, and figuring out what’s best.

[candyappy]

@Pehsness

No matter what I’m going to have to get an ‘off breed’ horse just for budget.

The way things are going a horse that shows any ability at all is way over priced.

I don’t know what your budget may be, but I bet any horse that shows any potential/ athleticism is going to cost. Registered or grade seems to make no difference these days.

I am thinking this is just basically a grade horse? The horse in the video is a nice one.

I am not up on all the registries they have now for crossing various breeds.

[Willesdon]

Hmmmm. It was a good test, well ridden, and the horse was well trained and comfortable in his job. However, the back end looked like a Clydesdale, with hocks set very close together (cow hocked) which is a current trend in the breed but is considered to be a fault in most others. The front end had the elevated knee of a Hackney and a high set neck which is good in a harness horse but limiting at higher levels of dressage training.

If I was searching for a horse to train at low level dressage, I would look closely at this one as he seems to be a pleasant character. If I was aiming for higher levels, I would look for a conformation that would help the horse more easily achieve the movements.

[Pehsness]

haha - since this is a future purchase I’m just pretending that the world is my oyster!

I’m afraid to ask the price of any horses these days, knowing what they are selling for. I have a pseudo budget in my mind and I’m not ready to find out it isn’t nearly enough.

[candyappy]

@Pehsness

haha - since this is a future purchase I’m just pretending that the world is my oyster!

I know. Maybe you can find a nice Clydesdale mare and get her bred to a Hackney and hope for the best??

[Lunabear1988]

Like other said, cow hocked which is not ideal. But I have to say thank you for sharing that as it was a very lovely test to watch! What a good boy.

[Abbie.S]

If your aim is to have your next “lifer” - or “long hauler” as you put it - I would focus on the individual horse and not the breed or cross itself.

Some hack/clyde crosses are probably lovely. Others are not. Personally, if you are looking for a horse with the natural ability to sit, as someone else mentioned, I would not choose a breed (or a cross of two breeds) that were bred to pull carriages. I am probably going against the grain but I don’t love the ride shown in the video you linked. I see a horse whose movement behind does not match the knee action in front, who is heavy in the hand as demonstrated by the tight curb rein and constant head nodding and who demonstrated very little real stretch in the free walk. The latter is something I see a lot of driving-bred horses struggle with: they do not naturally stretch “up and forward” through the base of the neck, but their natural upright carriage makes them look very fancy and collected.

Choose the horse first. I’d take a nicely built TB or appendix or WB cross over this pairing, honestly.

[enjoytheride]

The issue with a F1 generation cross like this is it’s a crap shoot. You might get something that does well in dressage. You might get something that does well in 3rd level dressage with a professional riding it every day. Some unconventional horses are up the levels because of incredible riders, us mortals don’t always stand a chance and might struggle with the horse’s natural way of going

Clydes are bred to pull with close set hocks. Hackney’s are bred to be upheaded with a lot of front end action and dropped backs for looking awesome in carriages. Depending on the combination of each you might get something that does reasonably well in dressage, terrible in dressage, or anything in between.

I think it really depends on a lot of factors.

I have one horse that is unconventional in dressage. He’s great dressage horse. He is well trained, amicable, and easy to ride (mostly) and does well in dressage and we are competitive. My other horse is terribly untrained, hard to ride, and not nearly as consistent but outscores him because she moves more traditionally.

[BigMama1]

We have a Clyde / Hackney cross at the barn where I board who is still happily doing all of the GP at age 22, and another who was successfully showing I1 and schooling the GP by the age of 9.

They both have reasonably good conformation for dressage given their breeding, and an exceptional worth ethic. They both also enjoyed the benefit of being in full training with a very skilled professional since they were very young. Good training can overcome a lol!

I know many other Clyde / Hackney and Clyde / Hackney / TB crosses who would never get past Second level.

Any breed of horse CAN do the upper levels but not every individual horse within that breed. Your chances are much improved with a horse that is purpose bred, from a long line of horses who have excelled at the upper levels. But even then a horse can have poor conformation or lack the work ethic / forward-thinking brain needed to succeed.

So long story short, don’t rule out a crossbreed like Clyde / Hackney, especially if you don’t aspire to FEI levels. Focus on the things that matter: conformation, soundness, quality of gait, desire to work, etc.

[exvet]

I’m another one who finds this horse to be a very good egg with some limitations due to conformation. I also have experience with this cross and the F1’s. As someone else said the F1s are a crap shoot. I was lucky in that each of mine had very good brains and personalities so their limitations in moving up the levels in dressage didn’t hinder their ability to be good amateur mounts for someone happy to tool around at training/first level. As broodmares they did pass on their great brains but even the next generation and come with some undesired results. Those who were able to go higher certainly existed; but, the job was in no way ‘easy’ for them. That’s not to discourage someone interested in taking such a cross on their dressage journey but focusing on the individual and how they move as well as how they’re put together (assuming that they were blessed with a good brain/level headed disposition) will likely give the best chance at having fun along the way.

[netg]

I quite like this guy!

I would not think about him because of my physical discomfort on large (wide) horses. A personal thing. But that exact horse in comfortable to me would be a pleasure to have around!

He is also ridden and trained extremely well. You can see him get wound up just before the canter pirouettes. Prior to that his hind end was more active and correct than a large percentage of the warmbloods I see showing. Once he was tight, that trailing hind leg tendency showed more, in the pirouettes and other work, and that final trot had far more trailing hind legs even as it looked more flamboyant.
This is where your own strengths and weaknesses come in. His getting hot wouldn’t bother me at all. However, I am terrible at riding hind legs under a horse with a tendency to trail. His trailing when he gets hot would make it even harder for me to fix. So based on my personal weaknesses a young horse with that tendency is always a pass for me.
On the other hand, I really appreciated his canter rhythm as he entered the ring. Really nice. And again, excellent training / riding.

When I look at a horse, the more specific items related to talent I look for are:
Hind legs which want to reach under
Hip angle which looks different at different points of the stride or movement (or in conformation photos if balance is off) - this is an indicator of ideal lumbo sacral alignment you can see from pictures. My older mare is one who I still wouldn’t be able to identify what her hip angle is, because her alignment is so perfect it varies depending on any little nuance of her position, from very steep to very flat.
Rhythmic canter with good hind leg separation - it’s very hard to improve a tendency toward poor canter rhythm.
Tendency to lift the withers when pushing forward. At liberty, I want to see the horse look SUPER uphill when really driving forward. Often this gets paired with dragging hind legs in that moment, but yeehaw hind leg moments don’t bother me. The ability and tendency to lift the sternum and raise the withers, however, will make life SO much easier later.

I don’t worry as much about some tension or lack of swing in the back because I tend to be good at fixing those.

[Pehsness]

This has all been super helpful, thank you! Particularly the close set hind legs. That’s not something I would have known to look for. I would know something wasn’t quite right, but not what.

[Shagyas_Rock]

I thought this was a lovely horse with obviously a big heart who tries hard. I agree with many of the things others have said: he is the product of two breeds bred for driving. When I watched him, he was obviously superbly trained and ridden but. . . . is it just me or . . . did he look a bit like a leg mover? And this is not uncommon with the carriage breeds and may explain the comments about trailing hindlegs and difficulty sitting.
But it is amazing what a horse with a good mind and a huge heart will do for you and there are so many horses out there who will exceed expectations and surprise people with what they can do - because of their amazing hearts.
Get the horse you click with and love. And then see how far you can go…

[BigMama1]

Ha! This is so funny. When I wrote my original response I hadn’t watched the video. The horse in the video IS the guy from our barn still happily doing GP work at age 22. He’s the king of the barn and we all love him.